Yesterday i loaded a used Remington brass cartridge with 6.0 gr of Unique and seated a Sierra JHP .429 bullet to tge sane seating as I do 200 gr hardcast lead (.427) to make sure it fit into my new Uberti 1873 carbine chamber. The load was taken from a mild low end .44 Spl load data in my reloading manual. Fed the round in the loading gate, cycled the lever, it went into battery just fine. Aimed and fired. Wasn't anything earthshattering. About like 8.2 gr of unique under 200 gr hard-cast. Hit well. Felt good. Then i tried to eject. It was stuck. Had to give it a little force and found the case had ruptured and separated towards the base. The front part of the cartridge is still in the gun and I' trying to get it out. Broke down the gun as best i could (i've got a 200 gr cartridge in the elevator that i cant get out but i have removed it from the extractor and lowered the elevator enough to get in there and try to get the broken case out. I tried pulling a bore snake through to see if it would yank it out. No go.
Needless to sayi wont be doing this again until i understand what went wrong exactly. Either there was excessive headspace (it was a very mild loading) or the thin walls of the Remington brass after being used for the 3rd time finally gave.
Was that 44 Special load for 240 gr jacketed or for 200 gr lead? The case obviously yielded to more pressure than it could stand. Obviously you need to be using 44-40 data that matches your bullets. Borrowing data from 44 Special or substituting 44 Magnum bullets for 200 grain is just wrong on a number of levels.
PLUS ONE to Roscoe
Loading/Reloading information does not SAFELY transfer from one cartridge to another. There is also a vast difference between LEAD bullets and JHP. You've just found that out. Obviously, you need to read the COMPLETE reloading manual rather than just skipping to the tables.
Now, I'd suggest you contact Brownells for a "stuck case remover" so you can get the remnant of the case out without damaging the bore or the chamber.
DITTO to what Rosco and Coffinmaker said. You're lucky you didn't damage the gun.
As for the stuck partial case, try running a 45 brass brush through from the muzzle. It might be tight enough to grab the section of brass and push it out. I did this with a blown head that left a ring of 45 ACP brass in a friend's 1911 chamber. I used a .458 rifle brush and pushed it through from the muzzle and it worked. Worth a try.
Dave
I have been successful in removing broken shell cases by driving a cap and ball pure lead round ball of the appropriate diameter (in you're situation try a .452") from the muzzle end of the barrel down to the chamber. Nine time out of ten the round ball will pickup the broken case mouth and push it out through the chamber.
Then there was my 38-40 that had a separated case that OK Tom had to get a chamber reamer and cut it out. I was shooting the same 38-40 load that I had been using for 10 years or so.
Quote from: Roscoe on January 14, 2018, 10:49:39 AM
Was that 44 Special load for 240 gr jacketed or for 200 gr lead? The case obviously yielded to more pressure than it could stand. Obviously you need to be using 44-40 data that matches your bullets. Borrowing data from 44 Special or substituting 44 Magnum bullets for 200 grain is just wrong on a number of levels.
It was 240 gr. On the low end of starting loads
This thing is pretty tight in therr. Bristle brisges, patches on spear plug cleaners, bore brushes are not even budging it. They just pass right through out the breech. Midway doesnt have shell extractors for 44-40 anymore.
BLEEP! Im going to have to take this to a gunsmith. Not just because of the shell but because i cant get the dann rifle completeky apart or even back together. Nothing is as easy as these brownells videos claim. Half the screws are easily stripped because some a-hole tightened them too much. The lever screw comes halfway out until it just turns endlessly. I tapped it a little from the other side snd now the swivel of the lever is tight and i cant get tge screw to drive back in. (The videos it just comes right out).
My Good Doug -
my Lyman 49th edition only lists loads for 200 gr jacket, 200 gr lead and 205gr lead in .44-40
my Lee 2nd edition ( 2013) also does not list any loads for 240 gr jacketed bullet for 44-40.
Hogdens website only lists 200 gr lead bullet loads.
Hornady website only lists the 205gr jacketed flatpoint.
Alliant only list a max load, with the 200gr lead bullet.
In fact, I cannot find any professional published data for the 240gr jacketed bullet in 44-40 .
Sorry to her of your problem, but You have now experienced first-hand the problems that can arise when
one strays from published tested loads, and tries to extrapolate from a different cartridge of a different volume.
also, it might be a good idea to pull the bullets of any remaining and re-wiegh the charges... just in case...
yhs
prof marvel
Quote from: Doug.38PR on January 14, 2018, 06:18:30 PM
BLEEP! Im going to have to take this to a gunsmith. Not just because of the shell but because i cant get the dann rifle completeky apart or even back together. Nothing is as easy as these brownells videos claim. Half the screws are easily stripped because some a-hole tightened them too much. The lever screw comes halfway out until it just turns endlessly. I tapped it a little from the other side snd now the swivel of the lever is tight and i cant get tge screw to drive back in. (The videos it just comes right out).
The carrier and lever springs bear against the lever and should be loosened (the two screws on bottom of the frame behind the carrier) before attempting to remove or install the lever pivot screw.
Quote from: Abilene on January 15, 2018, 12:14:28 AM
The carrier and lever springs bear against the lever and should be loosened (the two screws on bottom of the frame behind the carrier) before attempting to remove or install the lever pivot screw.
Thanks Abilene! I will add that to my notes, since I will probably jam up my 1866 sometime....
yhs
prof marvel
While I don't remember using it on my Uberti an impact driver is a very useful tool to break those gorilla tight screws loose. Had to remove the bayonet lug /heat shield from my Norinco trench gun in order to mod it to hold 6 rds. Even with a Brownells big screwdriver bit kit and a perfect fitting bit one of the screws chipped. Using an impact driver it broke loose. And don't forget the penetrating fluid.
I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers here, but the tone of many of the replies to Doug's problem seem uncomfortably condescending. If I were Doug, I'd be reluctant to post about any more of my reloading foibles here. And while it is, indeed, risky to stray from published loads and choose instead to extrapolate one's data from other cartridges, Doug's load is not one I would have expected trouble out of.
Doug, if you haven't already boogered up the screws beyond usefulness, select a well-fitting, hollow-ground screwdriver. Holding it as vertically as you can in the screw slots, with a good deal of body weight on it, give the screwdriver a sudden, sharp twist. That will often break those Uberti screws loose with an audible crack. As Abilene said, the carrier and lever spring screws have to be loosened in order to remove the tension on the lever pivot screw. Once you get those loosened, disassembly will be more or less intuitive.
If you absolutely can't get those screws to loosen, and you have your sideplates off, you can usually just pry the tips of the springs sideways off of where they contact the cam lobes on the lever and carrier arm. They'll be under tension, and you might scratch something, but it is a way to get the thing disassembled. The spring screws will often be easier to loosen once you've done this.
I would not encourage you or anyone to stray from the load data like you did, and your mishap is anecdotal evidence as to why. But I'm not entirely convinced that your load was the sole culprit, and I can't call you foolhardy for thinking that your load would be safe. You violated a rule of reloading. And whether your load was the proximate cause of your trouble or not, the results appear to support and to reinforce the rule and provide a useful anecdote for others. However, I have seen the same logic that you applied to working up your load suggested by many others in response to reloading questions on other forums, and I can certainly understand why you thought 6.0 gr. of Unique under a 240 gr. JHP would be safe.
Quote from: OD#3 on January 15, 2018, 04:54:03 PM
I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers here, but the tone of many of the replies to Doug's problem seem uncomfortably condescending.
No ruffling.
Doug is actually rather brave and humble to post his problem and probable error.
Asking questions is how you learn.
So is learning from your mistakes.
Actually he is getting a rather gentle treatment, compared to what I used to get (the Drill Sergeant method)
how would you prefer I tell someone they screwed up?
Quote from: OD#3 on January 15, 2018, 04:54:03 PM
If I were Doug, I'd be reluctant to post about any more of my reloading foibles here. And while it is, indeed, risky to stray from published loads and choose instead to extrapolate one's data from other cartridges, Doug's load is not one I would have expected trouble out of.
"normally" I might agree, but the problem here has many levels
- a less experienced reloader ( we have all been there)
- strayed from published loads ( as a beginner I did too, had to drive casings from a cylinder, then stared at the flattened primers!)
- used a heavier, jacketed bullet for which no one published a load! There must be a reason for that, no?
- extrapolated a starting load from a different, smaller, straight-wall cartridge, with no experience at exgtrapolating loads and no instrumentation- ie: chrony and pressure transducers.
As Roscoe and said
"Borrowing data from 44 Special or substituting 44 Magnum bullets for 200 grain is just wrong on a number of levels."
the big issues are
- the differences in pressure between a 200 gr lead bullet and a 240 gr jacketed bullet.
I fully expect the reason that there are no published loads for such heavier jacketed bullets are the pressure problems.
- the difference in volume between the .44 spcl and the .44-40
volume changes can lead to unexpected results.
For example, I have been experimenting with low velocity RB loads aka, "cat sneeze" loads. in .38 spcl, and have found
surprisingly different velocities depending upon how deeply I seat the ball and amount and style of crimp. I have ceased
experiments until I can lay my hands on pressure sensing gear.
Quote from: OD#3 on January 15, 2018, 04:54:03 PM
Doug, if you haven't already boogered up the screws beyond usefulness, select a well-fitting, hollow-ground screwdriver. Holding it as vertically as you can in the screw slots, with a good deal of body weight on it, give the screwdriver a sudden, sharp twist. That will often break those Uberti screws loose with an audible crack. As Abilene said, the carrier and lever spring screws have to be loosened in order to remove the tension on the lever pivot screw. Once you get those loosened, disassembly will be more or less intuitive.
If you absolutely can't get those screws to loosen, and you have your sideplates off, you can usually just pry the tips of the springs sideways off of where they contact the cam lobes on the lever and carrier arm. They'll be under tension, and you might scratch something, but it is a way to get the thing disassembled. The spring screws will often be easier to loosen once you've done this.
Very good advice, thanks for for that, as I fully expect to be in a similar position some time in the future!
Fortunately Doug has come forward and hopefully we can all learn from his experiences.
yhs
prof marvel
I found a 44-40 load for Unique and a 240 gr bullet in Alliant data, but it was for lead and allowed even a little more than the 6.0 gr used here. However, I expect the problem here is the amount of pressure it takes to move a 240 gr JACKETED bullet from the case, given the 44-40's thin case wall. It was simply an unproven load. One of the lessons then is to consider lead and jacketed or well plated bullets to be quite different components.
I've never sectioned a 44-40 case before, so someone correct me if I'm wrong. But I would expect that modern cases thicken plenty towards the head, which was where Doug said his case separated. I don't know how much they thicken, but I would expect them to be about equal to a .44 Special in thickness near the head. Much is made of the thin 44-40 case walls, but doesn't that really just apply to the neck and possibly the shoulder only? To get a good seal, that's all you need, really. The reason I ask is that this has bugged me all night (I worked night shift last night).
If I'd been in Doug's shoes and was willing to stray from published loads, my reasoning would have gone thusly:
1. I can't find any data for .44-40 and a 240 gr JHP, but here's a mild .44 Special load that calls for 6.0 gr. Unique under that bullet.
2. Listed pressures for this load in .44 Special are lower than max .44-40 pressures.
3. C.O.L. for this load in .44 Special is shorter than the maximum C.O.L. on the .44-40, and the .44-40 case is wider as well.
4. The wider .44-40 case combined with a longer C.O.L. with this load will yield even lower pressure with the .44-40 than with a .44
Special, because my case volume will be greater.
5. There is no metallurgical differences between .44 Special Uberti and a .44-40 Uberti.
And I would have forged ahead with what I thought was a good idea at the time.
I'm very sorry that happened to you, Doug. How's the broken shell extraction coming?
To verify my remarks my experience is I have been reloading since the days of FA70 primers and HiVel #2 powders. I learned from a friend that had been reloading forever. His advice which I have repeated so many time I feel like a stuck record is
GET A GOOD RELOADING MANUAL AND FOLLOW IT!
Unless you are equipped with a complete ballistics laboratory complete with a pressure gun just do what trained and equipped technicians have proved to be the safe limits with a certain caliber, projectile and powder.
Or you may opt to do your own experimentation and blow up a gun or become an example of a winner of the Darwin award and have an EMS first responder pick up as much as possible of you with a stick and spoon so you can be buried in a closed shoe box.
In short
GET THE BOOK AND READ THE F@#$%^G THING!
Yr' (tired of repeating myself) Obt' Svt'
Bunk
Stuck shell in 44/40
1) do not - repeat - DO NOT !!! - put anything harder than brass in that chamber - you will stuff it - this I guarantee
2) get a piece of 1/8th brass brazing rod - bend the end a little and grind,cut it to a point like a small chisel end - drive the chisel end in between the chamber wall and the broken case wall - go full length of the case - or until it bulges inwards enough to slip out
This is an easy safe way to get out a broken case and will shift even the toughest one
--how do I know this ? - yup been thar done it - hotrodding a loose 44/40 with JHP boolits and throwaway twinflashole cases that I bodgy reloaded - most of us has done stuff we thought at the time was safe and later figured was maybe just a little dumb.
The best reason I can think of to NOT use 240 grain boolits in a model 73 ..44/40 ???? if they copied the original slowish twist those pills wont stabilise worth a damn at normal velocity --- been thar done that too - 225 grain CBE lead slug will not stabilise in my 'berti 66 past aboot 75 yards with blackpowder ------(its an old uberti - maybe they changed that later) -- this is a potential problem with the big lube boolits too .
Since you have already buggered the gun and based on the "you can't fall off the floor" principle you might try driving a soft lead plug down the muzzle to the chamber mouth. Then fill the chamber with chamber casting material (a low temperature melting point alloy) and try then driving the whole thing out. Hopefully the alloy will catch the fragment and pull it out.
It can't hurt and the worst case scenario is you get a good profile of the problem.
Good luck and you have gained experience which is the thing you get right after you needed it.
Regards
Bunk
OK. I was short with the OP and not nice. I meant it that way. My feathers are not in the slightest ruffled.......
Incipient Case Head Separation can happen to anyone at any time with any caliber without an overpressure load. All you need is a weak or slightly stretched case. Manufacturing error. Oversize chamber. Lots of possibilities. In this particular instance, the case had help to separate. Lots of "HELP."
When we reload, we are playing with explosives. The best reloading manuals have chapters of information directed at keeping new folks from doing something really seriously wrong. Those WRONG things can not only cost an expensive gun. Those WRONG things can cost human BODY PARTS that can't be replaced.
If my comments embarrass someone badly enough they go back to basic and LEARN ....... I consider it successful. Trust me. Had the individual brought this rifle into my shop for fixit, I would have been very LOUD with my scolding. Condescending?? You betcha.
Oh Yea ..... PLUS ONE to Bunk's last.
Checked all my reloading manuals. The only loads for .44-40 jacketed were for 200 gr .426 diameter bullets. Found them in a copy of the Lyman Reloading Handbook and an old Hodgdon reloading manual. Winchester's and Remington's jacketed bullets for .44-40 are 0.426. SAAMI specs bullet diameter at 0.424-0.427.
My advice would be to have your gunsmith slug the barrel for you, after he removes the remains of the case. I'll bet your rifle slugs out tight.
I may have been a bit harsh in my previous post, but common sense should tell anyone if it is not a load listed in a loading manual or at the powder company data site there just might be a reason.
Perhaps it is because a particular combination was tried and found to be not a workable load for whatever reason.
Personally, I really don't case if you want to blow up a gun and plant the top strap in the middle of your forehead because that is your prerogative. There is always the chance I can make a good deal on remaining guns or loading equipment from your next of kin.
However, I do object strenuously about the possibility of being next to you and suffering collateral damage because you are stupid and not following loading instructions can only be described as just plain stupid.
To paraphrase Ron White
"You can educate ignorance, but you can't fix stupid."
Excuse me I am a bit frustrated it was 19 degrees last night here in my part of central Texas, my water pipes are frozen, and my usual jovial sense of humor is not working well.
Bunk Stagner (the original)
Quote from: Bunk on January 16, 2018, 05:34:41 PM
Since you have already buggered the gun and based on the "you can't fall off the floor" principle you might try driving a soft lead plug down the muzzle to the chamber mouth. Then fill the chamber with chamber casting material (a low temperature melting point alloy) and try then driving the whole thing out. Hopefully the alloy will catch the fragment and pull it out.
It can't hurt and the worst case scenario is you get a good profile of the problem.
Good luck and you have gained experience which is the thing you get right after you needed it.
Regards
Bunk
Bunk
Why go to all that trouble ? try this idea - so easy !!
-- get a piece of 1/8th brass brazing rod - bend the end a little and grind or cut it to a point like a small chisel end - drive the chisel end in between the chamber wall and the broken case wall - go full length of the case - or until it bulges inwards enough to slip out
This is an easy safe way to get out a broken case and will shift even the toughest one - will not hurt the gun
Hi Greyhawk
That should work as long as you have access to the breach end of the gun. Yeppers that should work "a treat" as gun plumber we know would say.
Bunk
Quote from: OD#3 on January 16, 2018, 09:16:56 AM
I've never sectioned a 44-40 case before, so someone correct me if I'm wrong. But I would expect that modern cases thicken plenty towards the head, which was where Doug said his case separated. I don't know how much they thicken, but I would expect them to be about equal to a .44 Special in thickness near the head. Much is made of the thin 44-40 case walls, but doesn't that really just apply to the neck and possibly the shoulder only? To get a good seal, that's all you need, really. The reason I ask is that this has bugged me all night (I worked night shift last night).
If I'd been in Doug's shoes and was willing to stray from published loads, my reasoning would have gone thusly:
1. I can't find any data for .44-40 and a 240 gr JHP, but here's a mild .44 Special load that calls for 6.0 gr. Unique under that bullet.
2. Listed pressures for this load in .44 Special are lower than max .44-40 pressures.
3. C.O.L. for this load in .44 Special is shorter than the maximum C.O.L. on the .44-40, and the .44-40 case is wider as well.
4. The wider .44-40 case combined with a longer C.O.L. with this load will yield even lower pressure with the .44-40 than with a .44
Special, because my case volume will be greater.
5. There is no metallurgical differences between .44 Special Uberti and a .44-40 Uberti.
And I would have forged ahead with what I thought was a good idea at the time.
I'm very sorry that happened to you, Doug. How's the broken shell extraction coming?
You pretty much guessed it OD3. Thanks for your understanding and your kind words here and in the previous post. In addition to that, my .44-40 rifle is brand new and a .429 bore (same as .44 spl) not the traditional .427. Also is the fact that there are no current manuels that i have that list 200 gr bullets for .38 or .357 magnum, but it can be done.
I'm not offended by Coffinmaker or anybody else's reply. I was pretty hard on myself. As said this will not be attempted again as obviously something went wrong. I am VERY careful at reliading. It took me aLmost a year of reading and discussing after i got my RCBS before I loaded my first round. I've been reloading for about 6 years now. Stil learning new things.
As for the gun, i had to get to work and was getting frustrated trying to get it apart and back together as well as get tge chamber clear of that shell fragment. So i left it with the gunsmith at the sporting goods store to get out. He has more resources than i do at home
Quote from: Doug.38PR on January 18, 2018, 02:00:18 PM
<snip> Also is the fact that there are no current manuels that i have that list 200 gr bullets for .38 or .357 magnum, but it can be done.
<snip>
WTH...that'll be your next episode.
Quote from: Roscoe on January 18, 2018, 07:39:18 PM
WTH...that'll be your next episode.
Haha! No not planning on it. But there are 200 grain bullets available in .357 and there are even factory rounds in .38 spl or .357 magnum
Its always a possibility that Doug just got unlucky with a defective case
but like CM said ... it had help
240 grain copper jacket in a '73 .........why? - its not a strong action - the thing was designed for a 200grain lead boolit and blackpowder
6 grains of unique dont seem like much but heres a tip fellers .....fast burning powder under a heavy boolit - things can get outa hand really quick. really really really quick!
200grain boolit in a 357mag ........forget it! LEE makes a picture perfect 158grain flatnose mold - is as close to ideal alround lead boolit as you can get fer a 357 mag rifle.
Quote from: greyhawk on January 19, 2018, 03:19:00 AM
.....fast burning powder under a heavy boolit - things can get outa hand really quick. really really really quick!
I've been studying my Speer reloading manual on 45 Colt and 44 mag JHP loads for reasons not related to this thread (trying to "rationalize" a planned purchase!). To your point...I've noticed that while data for Unique is listed for lighter, and typical bullet weights for caliber, it isn't listed for the heavier bullets.
Quote from: greyhawk on January 19, 2018, 03:19:00 AM
Its always a possibility that Doug just got unlucky with a defective case
but like CM said ... it had help
240 grain copper jacket in a '73 .........why? - its not a strong action - the thing was designed for a 200grain lead boolit and blackpowder
6 grains of unique dont seem like much but heres a tip fellers .....fast burning powder under a heavy boolit - things can get outa hand really quick. really really really quick!
200grain boolit in a 357mag ........forget it! LEE makes a picture perfect 158grain flatnose mold - is as close to ideal alround lead boolit as you can get fer a 357 mag rifle.
I wasn't trying to make a magnum rifle out of my 1873. I know it is what it is, it's not a 92 action and shouldn't be expected to hold up under hot loads. I just wanted to propel a heavier jacketed expanding HP bullet out of it at low to moderate velocities less than what lighter bullets like the 200 gr hardcast lead generate. (like 700-800 fps.). 200 gr .427 gr hardcast bullets get about 1100-1200 ft per second out of my rifle's 20 inch barrel and that's as far as I've taken it (using up to 8.2 gr of unique).
If you want JHP round in the 44-40 rifle use speer .429 200g JHP bullet with 7.8 to 8.0g Unique used in Uberti 1866 carbine for dear hunting, was .427 bore early model 1971, which is close to 200g SP Factory ammo. Killed dear good, but found SP factory did just as well
Quote from: russ1943 on January 22, 2018, 10:29:14 PM
If you want JHP round in the 44-40 rifle use speer .429 200g JHP bullet with 7.8 to 8.0g Unique used in Uberti 1866 carbine for dear hunting, was .427 bore early model 1971, which is close to 200g SP Factory ammo. Killed dear good, but found SP factory did just as well
That again is a mismatch, shooting a 44 Special bullet in a 44-40, .002 oversize...more serious because it is jacketed.
Quote from: Roscoe on January 23, 2018, 08:34:27 AM
That again is a mismatch, shooting a 44 Special bullet in a 44-40, .002 oversize...more serious because it is jacketed.
Except thar modern made Uberti bores are .429 now
Quote from: Doug.38PR on January 28, 2018, 02:51:46 PM
Except thar modern made Uberti bores are .429 now
Statement was specific to what was quoted "was .427 bore early model 1971,".
Quote from: Roscoe on January 28, 2018, 03:28:43 PM
Statement was specific to what was quoted "was .427 bore early model 1971,".
Oh okay. Gotcha. I agree then
There IS published data for a 240 gr. bullet in a 44-40, I found it at www.loaddata.com listed under Lee data. Yes, it is for a 240 gr. lead bullet, but their starting load is 6.1 gr. of Unique, so Doug load was nowhere near excessive. Doug I think you were reasonably prudent using .44 Special data as it is a cartridge case of lesser capacity. Everyone jumped to the conclusion that the case separated due to pressure issues, but if you understand basic internal ballistics, that's not likely. Had he loaded 7 or 8 grs., maybe, but not with the load he used.
Doug I had the same thing happen with a .303 British (using light cast bullet loads, FWIW). I removed the seperated portion of the case by running a tight batch down the bore, stopping it just ahead of the mouth of the case. I then melted some Cerrosafe and poured it in from the chamber end. The Cerrosafe filled the voids around the separated case and allowed me to tap the patch, Cerrosafe and case out, all in one piece. Pretty easy, actually.
Hope this helps.
CHT
Quote from: Cholla Hill Tirador on January 29, 2018, 11:29:43 AM
There IS published data for a 240 gr. bullet in a 44-40, I found it at www.loaddata.com listed under Lee data. Yes, it is for a 240 gr. lead bullet, but their starting load is 6.1 gr. of Unique, so Doug load was nowhere near excessive. Doug I think you were reasonably prudent using .44 Special data as it is a cartridge case of lesser capacity. Everyone jumped to the conclusion that the case separated due to pressure issues, but if you understand basic internal ballistics, that's not likely. Had he loaded 7 or 8 grs., maybe, but not with the load he used.
Doug I had the same thing happen with a .303 British (using light cast bullet loads, FWIW). I removed the seperated portion of the case by running a tight batch down the bore, stopping it just ahead of the mouth of the case. I then melted some Cerrosafe and poured it in from the chamber end. The Cerrosafe filled the voids around the separated case and allowed me to tap the patch, Cerrosafe and case out, all in one piece. Pretty easy, actually.
Hope this helps.
Brass chisel - have the dang thing out while u r fiddlin round with the patch mate !
CHT
Wow. I just talked to my gunsmith. He didn't have any extractor short enough so he had to send it to Stoeger to get it out. Said it shouldn't be much if anything to do it. Should be back monday or tuesday.
Quote from: Doug.38PR on February 01, 2018, 04:46:06 PM
Wow. I just talked to my gunsmith. He didn't have any extractor short enough so he had to send it to Stoeger to get it out. Said it shouldn't be much if anything to do it. Should be back monday or tuesday.
Wow.............................
dont need a gunsmith - this is five minute job
see pic below
Brass 1/8th welding rod chisel - tap it between chamber wall and stuck case wall till the case crumples inward (yes it will !!!) - see the groove in the cutoff 44/40 case in the pic - the case will proly fall out when its done - if not a brass brush from the muzzle end easy . I guess this is just too bloody simple for anybody to take it seriously ??????
Quote from: greyhawk on February 01, 2018, 08:39:02 PM
Wow.............................
dont need a gunsmith - this is five minute job
see pic below
Brass 1/8th welding rod chisel - tap it between chamber wall and stuck case wall till the case crumples inward (yes it will !!!) - see the groove in the cutoff 44/40 case in the pic - the case will proly fall out when its done - if not a brass brush from the muzzle end easy . I guess this is just too bloody simple for anybody to take it seriously ??????
Thank you. I tried everything I knew to do. Including something similar (but it wasn't brass). I was afraid if I kept poking around in that chamber with stuff I'd end up scratching up the gun and I sure didn't want to do that.
Anyway, it still bothers me that this happened at all. I'm still wondering what exactly I did wrong to cause this. The powder weight in the load was on the low end. It is possible to shoot a.429 240 gr JHP bullet through a .429 bore even if it is at a slow velocity. The only thing I can think is that the cartridge was worn out after times being used. One thing is clear: It wasn't the gun that failed, it was the cartridge that failed. But people have shot much hotter loads than that in .44-40 out of 1892 actions.
I'm not going to try this again because I don't know what went wrong. For now, just stick to lead 200 gr hardcast bullets. Should be adequate for what the gun is and anything I'll be shooting at paper or flesh
Quote from: Doug.38PR on February 03, 2018, 05:16:28 PM
Thank you. I tried everything I knew to do. Including something similar (but it wasn't brass). I was afraid if I kept poking around in that chamber with stuff I'd end up scratching up the gun and I sure didn't want to do that.
Anyway, it still bothers me that this happened at all. I'm still wondering what exactly I did wrong to cause this. The powder weight in the load was on the low end. It is possible to shoot a.429 240 gr JHP bullet through a .429 bore even if it is at a slow velocity. The only thing I can think is that the cartridge was worn out after times being used. One thing is clear: It wasn't the gun that failed, it was the cartridge that failed. But people have shot much hotter loads than that in .44-40 out of 1892 actions.
I'm not going to try this again because I don't know what went wrong. For now, just stick to lead 200 gr hardcast bullets. Should be adequate for what the gun is and anything I'll be shooting at paper or flesh
Hey, if you did all you were comfortable doing, then that was enough. We all have our limits as to how far we'll dig into things. I'll R&R a barrel on a toggle link action, but won't even attempt soldering. Anyhow...
Your load was very reasonable. Who knows why the case separated? Case separation is not at all an uncommon occurrence. Could've been, or be headspace that's a little on the long side, a case that was ready to separate regardless, or a combination of the two.
CHT
Quote from: Doug.38PR on February 03, 2018, 05:16:28 PM
Thank you. I tried everything I knew to do.
Thats cool - now you got a new trick
Including something similar (but it wasn't brass). I was afraid if I kept poking around in that chamber with stuff I'd end up scratching up the gun
Yep thats a sure bet with anything steel or remotely close - has to be a BRASS chisel
and I sure didn't want to do that.
Anyway, it still bothers me that this happened at all. I'm still wondering what exactly I did wrong to cause this.
You did say at the start that this was a used case ? Everytime we full length resize a case we are thinning the brass at the point where the case wall joins the soild head - how many times does it take? depends on a whole bunch of things - excessive headspace is a killer - a springy action with heavy loads - a sloppy chamber - crappy brass ........ by not full length resizing we keep the case a neater fit in the chamber and the effect is much less -- the theory of this is the first increase of pressure expands the case walls to grip the chamber - THEN - increased pressure pushes the base of the case rearwards to take up the slack in headspace so we get a little stretching between the walls and the base - do it enough times and eventually (how long is eventually?) the case wall thins to the point that we get a separation ---- in an old tired 32/20 action three reloads was enough (my first lever gun - 1960era) -- have ran a 22/250 on factory equivalent reloads and more than ten was still safe - but NEVER full length resized... Somewhere in the middle of all this, reloading crosses the line from science to art.
The powder weight in the load was on the low end. It is possible to shoot a.429 240 gr JHP bullet through a .429 bore even if it is at a slow velocity.
The only thing I can think is that the cartridge was worn out after times being used.
Thats probably the most likely - but you have a heavy boolit over a charge of fast powder - that can seem like it should be safe, but can get ugly quick. Been there done that with red dot - moved a safe load up from 148 grain to 158 grain slug in a rossi 357/ 38spl - got a case separation with what should have been a safe medium level load ....... old cases - fast powder - heavy boolit for calibre
I know that brass chisel thingy works ;)
One thing is clear: It wasn't the gun that failed, it was the cartridge that failed. But people have shot much hotter loads than that in .44-40 out of 1892 actions.
I'm not going to try this again because I don't know what went wrong. For now, just stick to lead 200 gr hardcast bullets. Should be adequate for what the gun is and anything I'll be shooting at paper or flesh
Quote from: Doug.38PR on February 03, 2018, 05:16:28 PM
Thank you. I tried everything I knew to do. Including something similar (but it wasn't brass). I was afraid if I kept poking around in that chamber with stuff I'd end up scratching up the gun and I sure didn't want to do that.
Anyway, it still bothers me that this happened at all. I'm still wondering what exactly I did wrong to cause this. The powder weight in the load was on the low end. It is possible to shoot a.429 240 gr JHP bullet through a .429 bore even if it is at a slow velocity. The only thing I can think is that the cartridge was worn out after times being used. One thing is clear: It wasn't the gun that failed, it was the cartridge that failed. But people have shot much hotter loads than that in .44-40 out of 1892 actions.
I'm not going to try this again because I don't know what went wrong. For now, just stick to lead 200 gr hardcast bullets. Should be adequate for what the gun is and anything I'll be shooting at paper or flesh
I think you will do better to skip the "hardcast" part.
Quote from: Roscoe on February 04, 2018, 07:20:37 AM
I think you will do better to skip the "hardcast" part.
Why is that? That's all I've been shooting in it since I got it and they shoot very well and accurate. .427 gr Hunters Supply 200 gr hardcast lead bullets
Quote from: Roscoe on February 04, 2018, 07:20:37 AM
I think you will do better to skip the "hardcast" part.
I cast my own 44-40 bullets (NOE mould, 220 gr. RNFP) and pretty much use straight wheelweights for alloy. No problems at with smokeless or BP loads.
CHT
Quote from: Doug.38PR on February 04, 2018, 10:20:19 AM
Why is that? That's all I've been shooting in it since I got it and they shoot very well and accurate. .427 gr Hunters Supply 200 gr hardcast lead bullets
What hardness number range do you think you have. "Hard cast" per se I think is about 15 and up. "Cowboy" bullets are generally 12 and down.
Quote from: Roscoe on February 04, 2018, 03:19:42 PM
What hardness number range do you think you have. "Hard cast" per se I think is about 15 and up. "Cowboy" bullets are generally 12 and down.
Well, the overview says 15. But also says, because of the lube, it will shoot fine in black powder firearms of 20 inches or less. My carbine is 19 inches. The bullet diameter is .427 and the bore is .429.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046136144/hunters-supply-hard-cast-bullets-44-40-wcf-427-diameter-200-grain-lead-flat-nose
Quote from: Doug.38PR on February 04, 2018, 09:59:15 PM
Well, the overview says 15. But also says, because of the lube, it will shoot fine in black powder firearms of 20 inches or less. My carbine is 19 inches. The bullet diameter is .427 and the bore is .429.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2046136144/hunters-supply-hard-cast-bullets-44-40-wcf-427-diameter-200-grain-lead-flat-nose
Rifle velocities can change the game. However, that bullet would need to be soft enough to bump up from .427 to .429.
Quote from: Roscoe on February 05, 2018, 11:22:17 AM
Rifle velocities can change the game. However, that bullet would need to be soft enough to bump up from .427 to .429.
It says up to 1600 ft per second. My Pyrodex loads are between 1200-1300 ft per second
Quote from: Doug.38PR on February 05, 2018, 04:17:54 PM
It says up to 1600 ft per second. My Pyrodex loads are between 1200-1300 ft per second
You are missing that hard bullets at low velocities and pressures, cowboy revolvers for example, lead badly, because they don't seal the bore.
Quote from: Roscoe on February 06, 2018, 02:14:47 PM
You are missing that hard bullets at low velocities and pressures, cowboy revolvers for example, lead badly, because they don't seal the bore.
This is generally true, but certainly not written in stone. I had a Lyman mould that dropped .35 wadcutters at .357". They should've leaded the bores of my .357's and .38's and been inaccurate, but such wasn't the case. I suspect when we're only talking about .002", that's .001" all the way around, that some of the lead displaced by the rifling fills the .001" void. Who knows???
CHT
Quote from: Cholla Hill Tirador on February 06, 2018, 06:09:48 PM
This is generally true, but certainly not written in stone. I had a Lyman mould that dropped .35 wadcutters at .357". They should've leaded the bores of my .357's and .38's and been inaccurate, but such wasn't the case. I suspect when we're only talking about .002", that's .001" all the way around, that some of the lead displaced by the rifling fills the .001" void. Who knows???
CHT
That is a sizing issue rather than hardness.