My Taylors Spencer is 56-50 and I would like to use it for those matches.
[Style points, you know...]
Has there been much discussion on the Talyors Spencer that I should bring my attention to?
Taylor reproduction of Spencers are allowed under NCOWS rules, the 56-50 though can only be used on a case by case basis at local clubs, the Nebraska Territorial Rangers at Logan, Iowa does not allow the 56-50 at their range currently....
But the Kansas Vigiliance Committee just south or Kansas City does allow them. So it truly is on a club by club basis....
There is belief that the big boolit will harm, dent or de-weld targets. This is possibly true of steel targets that are made of softer, cheaper, or thinner steel.
However, if the NCOWS Eastern Regional is any indication, there were several big-bore Spencers and they had no effect on the targets except for the nice KLAANG!
We have seen them used here at the Ackley range and even the Nationals has had them used. No problem. But it is a club by club thing.
Kayleen
They are certainly permitted at the Great Lakes Freight and Mining Co. shoots in east central Indiana.
CAN O'WORMS ALERT! CAN O'WORMS ALERT! CAN O'WORMS ALERT!
Well, now...................
For those that want to abide by the strict definition of the rules, the list of "Approved Cartridge Firearms" simply states "Spencer all Models."
In the By-Laws under "NCOWS Rules and Regulations", it says "Approved calibers and loads include any that were introduced prior to or during the period 1865-1899 and that were originally introduced as a black powder load."
For the real quibblers, we have to ask "When was the .56-50 centerfire introduced? This, I have been unable to determine. But, as the centerfire version holds less powder than the rimfire, it is certainly less of a hazard downrange.
But, under the "Authenticity" section, it says "Center-fire calibers may substitute for original rim-fire calibers in reproduction firearms." So that point is moot.
Reading through the revised, updated By-Laws, I no longer see any reference to "pistol-caliber rifles." It just says that rifles must be in an approved caliber.
I also note that while we do have maximum velocities listed for smokeless powder loads, no such limits are shown for black powder loads. Physics takes care of that problem.
The only possible problem I can find is under the safety procedures, where it states "Shooters may be held responsible for damage caused to a target by too "hot" a load." As my .56-50 loads generate less energy than a factory smokless .45 Colt round, I think it would be difficult to blame any broken targets on me!
So, it would seem to me that I could show up at any NCOWS sanctioned shoot with my .56-50 Spencer, and they would have to allow me to use it.
Cal and Lou, what say you? May I use my Spencer at NTR? And is there anyplace else that doesn't allow them?
Grizzle Bear
GB-
All of your points are ones that I have read before and agree with.
My 56-50 with GOEX FFFg and 350gr 30:1 lead bullet is nice, slow, soft, and LOT-O-SMOKE!!! (isn't that why we really shoot these things anyhow?)
The bullet is so soft, my finger nail will mark it easily. And, since it is only 100gr more than 250gr LC loads with just a pinch more powder (45gr vs. 37gr) I fail to see how it would damage a target. My carbine only sends it down range at 850fps anyhow...
But, as others have said, its a range-by-range basis.
I was really hoping to use it at the NTR shoot this next summer during an event...hope I can either get approval or the local club allow it by then.
Here is the ruling from our Marshal Tracy Thorpe on the case by case basis....
So for know here is a ruling. I spoke to the Judge on this matter and will stand by his feelings on the Spencer 56/50 for main match use. 'The use of the Spencer rifle in caliber 56/50 will only be allowed for main match use on a posse by posse basis. It is optional. If a posse has no problem with it that is fine. If a posse does not allow it, understand it and respect it. It is their range and their targets you are shooting at.' This should be fair enough until it can be discussed if necessary in November
I am unaware of any change to this by the Congress at the November meeting, so was this ruling changed....
Quote from: Wymore Wrangler on December 01, 2005, 11:28:09 AMI am unaware of any change to this by the Congress at the November meeting, so was this ruling changed....
Unfortunately there were several items that everyone must have assumed someone else had already submitted for the November agenda and consequently they weren't submitted at all. I anticipate we'll have a full agenda for the Convention meeting to remedy that.
See, can o'worms..........
The points I was trying to make are:
1. There is no basis in fact for the notion the the .56-50 cartridge is going to damage any targets, beyond the normal battering they take.
2. There is no basis in any NCOWS rule or regulation to prohibit the use of the .56-50 cartridge. On the contrary, it is specifically allowed.
Now, with all that said and done, there does beat the heart of a gentleman beneath this rude and crude exterior, and therefore I asked permission of Norm and Cindy to use this particular firearm at their shoot. And I would not use it there without their permission.
And I do not think this is anything the Congress needs to address. As more Spencers in .56-50 show up on the firing line, everyone will see it is not the giant-killer they thought it was. And any local prohibitions on its' use will fall by the wayside.
Now, if you want something that breaks targets, let me tell you about my Brown Bess musket.............
Grizzle Bear
Quote from: Grizzle Bear on December 01, 2005, 12:24:00 PMNow, if you want something that breaks targets, let me tell you about my Brown Bess musket...........
Or my .577/.450 Martini-Henry! ;D
Now Griz--- are you forgetting that someone with a Spencer was alleged to have shot the moon at the Nationals, and to have severely wounded the Space Shuttle. They have also been reputed to be responsible for falling hair, warts ( or was that toads), dyspepsia, dropsy, blue mould and other sanguine and blood thirsty ailments.
What are you trying to do??? You can't just dismantle the dread and horror that mention of the Spencer brings. That would be strictly anti- American. Are you willing to dispel the 150 years of tradition that has added to the fame and lustre of the world's deadliest lever action rifle? The dread "Yankee Horizontal Shot Tower"?????????? AAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
Jack, it seems like every time we debunk one old superstition, another one rises in its' place.
Although, maybe shooting the Spencer does explain the wart on my hand..........
Grizzle Bear
Griz,
I can still find some good remedies in my Lavendar suitcase that my other personality carrys. You know the snake oil salesperson. I have various ointments, salves and concoctions to cure most anything. Because the chant is naughty, I cannot post it here. If one needs to know, PM me.
But I know it will take the warts off your hands.
Another solution, ship all your Spencer rifles to me and I will test fire them at various thicknesses of steel targets, if there is target damage I will dispose of the gun in the proper way. You check will be in the mail the next day.
Kayleen
Dakota,
There were 3 or 4 of them(originals and Taylors) used at the July 2005 Nationals. Mine as you are aware was not up an running or else I would have used it. I will next year if they are allowed.
Before the Nationals, it was one of those hot hot topics with a lottt of debate both ways. I was part of it.
Good to see you over on this board
Black River Smith
Don't fall for that one, Griz! You KNOW how That Disposal works! They are buying back firearms for a mere pittance. If you need money that badly, sell them an old rusted up piece of junk. They pay the same. Take the money and go buy some more brass cases for your Spencer.
Sorry, Kayleen, I just couldn't stand by and let you con him like that. Besides, warts are easy to remove-- blue ointment works wonders. :D ;D ????
I got a good sharp knife. (or two, or.....)
Books
Books,
Ya don't have as many knives as the Ol' Doc has!!! ;D :D ;D ;D :D ;D
Griz,
Only cost a couple of Bear Bucks! Such a deal. ;D :P 8) :P ;D
Howdy Griz,
In the nine years of holding Western Action shoots, we have had some targets damaged and/or worn out at NTR ranges. This is part of the operating cost and can be expected.
As the by-laws state, Spencer models are approved. We take your word on the 56-50 black powder loads generating less energy than factory smokeless .45 Colt. We will chronograph these loads also for further facts.
When NTR officers declared only pistol caliber rifle loads for matches, the general thought was smokeless loads such as 30-30 not being accepted.
NTR officers will discuss the Spencer 56-50 at our next committee meeting. Our posse's policies are to not be exclusive, but inclusive to all shooters.
Quote from: Kayleen on December 01, 2005, 03:00:55 PM
Griz,
I can still find some good remedies in my Lavendar suitcase that my other personality carrys. You know the snake oil salesperson. I have various ointments, salves and concoctions to cure most anything. Because the chant is naughty, I cannot post it here. If one needs to know, PM me.
But I know it will take the warts off your hands.Kayleen
How is it with stains? (http://www.millerjs.com/Comedition/Movies/images/Confederate/stain.wav)
I have a general question for the people in the know. This is not to start anything, just want to understand.
When did the pistol cartridge restriction go into affect for NCOWS? I don't remember it being in affect at the 99 National. My first NCOWS. I was using an original 73 in 44/40 for that shoot so if did not matter so.
But I thought that NCOWS, back then and at it beginnings, (from reading the Approved list) allowed all rifles (levers) (all calibers) for use as a main match gun.
Please correct me or straighten out my thinking here.
Thanks
Black River Smith
Black River Smith, during the previous debate on the Spencer, I emailed George Glenn (the co- founder of the organization and who also wrote the original bylaws) and also called him on the phone about the original intent of the bylaws, his statement was that it was common sense that pistol caliber rifles only were allowed and at that time, he did not believe the 56-50 was an approved caliber. Except for alot of off color comments on the subject which has then and now detracted from the debate, the facts on the 56-50 damaging steel targets has been positive and enlighting and may be accepted by all NCOWS posses....
Cal and Lou,
Having used my Taylor's Spencer, and seen the results firsthand of use of originals in the same 'caliber',,, 56-50, I can honestly state that there have been no instances of any unusual or accelerated target damage from their use either at Johnson County Rangers, or at Hooten Old Town. Great Lakes Freight and Mining Co. has had the same findings.
Out of curiosity several months ago, I conduclted several trials complete with chronograph. The average velocity for the 56-50 Taylor's was 900 fps. from the carbine with its 20" barrel. Foir comparison, 45 Colt loads from a '73 Winchester with smokeless cowboy loads was 1250 fps. I ran the calculations for energy, and the results were basically even. Even with a heavier bullet (100 gr.), and a larger bore size, they are neck and neck as far as kinetic energy. These loads were with full capacity charges of FFG Goex, 34 gr., and a 350 gr. bullet. The 45 Lc. was with 255 gr. bullet, and 8 gr. Unique.
These results are easily verifiable by anyone with a chronograph, and a copy of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook for the formula.
The decision of allowing or not is up to your posse, this is only offered as a bit of information for your consideration.
Have a Merry Charistmas, see you at the Convention, I hope.
Jack, how are you getting 34 grains of black powder in a Spencer case? Drop tube? I can only get about 28 grains in mine.
And for everybody: The reason for the "pistol caliber rifle" stipulation was to prevent folks from bringing a Winchester 94 in .30-30, with jacketed bullets to a shoot. Which would make ugly dents in a target.
But in reading through the new, improved By-Laws, I can no longer find that phrase. The problem had been taken care of in the listing of approved firearms and cartridges.
Grizzle Bear
Griz, that's drop tubed and compressed. That's the absolute maximum that I can get in my cases. I am sure that you will find the same limitations-- Bullet length has somewhat to do with it as well, the normal variance between different manufacturer's designs account for a few grains. I definitely was not able to get the amount of powder claimed in the original baloon head rimfire cases, though. I felt that for the testing to be definitive, I needed to get the maximum load of BP possible in the cases.
[Some of the loading data is already posted in the Spencer Shooting society forum]
I use a drop tube with a modified Lee mould from a 500gr 50-70 bullet. It drops out at 350gr. (or just under)
It has a taller spire but flatter metaplate, which eliminates the problem of tube magazine chain fires.
If I use non-magnum rifle primers, 45gr of GOEX FFFg, I have consistently chrono'd the bullets at right around 820fps.
If I use 40gr of FFFg GOEX, it drops down to 780fps. (still LOTS-O-SMOKE!!!)
Thas 470ft-lbs of energy.
A 45lc with 250gr bullet marked as "cowboy action" from Ultramax or Winchester have chrono'd out at 1150fps from a 20" model 73.
Thats 734ft-lbs of energy.
All this adds up to one thing. I am out to make as much smoke and have as much fun as I can...not tear up targets or damage property.
If you folks at the NTR would like me to bring extra ammo and my chrono before the match (earlier in the day or the day before) i would be more than happy to. I promise to bring enough ammo for everyone to get a good feel for it. ;)
The key to saving targets is to use a VERY soft lead bullet and slow it down to where the energy is under 600ft-lbs. (which is why the 1000fps rule is FAR more important than "caliber" classifications)
Boy, did this thread fill up fast! I saw it yesterday mornin' and it only had one response. I thought about saying something like, "The 56-50 Spencer doesn't hit any harder than a 45 Colt warthog load out of a rifle." but I held my piece, having only hearsay knowledge about the 56-50 from reading internet posts and reloading info on the cartridge, when I was interested in using one. Hopefully, by the time shooting season starts again (here in the northcountry) this will be resolved for all posses. Even without knowing much about the ballistics of the 56-50, the first time I saw a case (or loaded round) I knew it wasn't much more than a 50 caliber pistol cartridge. Add to that the time period in which it was developed, all calibers of brass cartridges were wimpy and underpowered.
WW and Griz thanks
My question now goes beyond the Spencer, that is old and past and I don't want to go there again. But what I was thinking was like the 86 the Marlin 81 and the 76's. (I know the 81 and 76 are not on the Approved list, but you get my idea) Why approve the big bores levers when they can't be used for buffalo or matches.
Black River Smith
It is my understanding that the lever big bores are legal for long range NCOWS side matches with the exception of the Buffalo Long Range events which rifles must be pre-1873 designs....
Quote from: Black River Smith on December 02, 2005, 06:16:24 PM
(I know the 81 and 76 are not on the Approved list, but you get my idea)
Actually they are, the approved list starts out with:
QuoteIt should go without saying, although it doesn't, that original antique versions of these firearms are also approved.
There are no reproductions of either rifle, originals are always legal.
Quote from: Wymore Wrangler on December 02, 2005, 07:40:48 PM
It is my understanding that the lever big bores are legal for long range NCOWS side matches with the exception of the Buffalo Long Range events which rifles must be pre-1873 designs....
The long range matches aren't just sidematches, CVR hosts several two-day events through the year dedicated solely to big-bore shooting at mid to long range (and they really mean long range, I think up to 1,200 yds). The buffalo shoots are restricted to blackpowder loads in rifles used during the peak of the 'buffalo harvest'
1872-1882.
And lastly, for those who may not have ever had the opportunity to see a 56-50 Spencer round, here it is under the white arrow:
(http://www.lone-gunman.com/56-50.jpg)
L-R: 38LC; 44WCF; 45LC; 56-50; 30-30; 45-70; 50-140; 40-90; .577/.450 Martini-Henry; 70-150 Winchester
Now, does it look like it belongs more with the 'pistol caliber' cartridges to it's left, or the 'rifle caliber' cartridges to it's right?
And lastly, for those who may not have ever had the opportunity to see a 56-50 Spencer round, here it is under the white arrow:
What a cute little cartridge. Believe I want one.
Black River Smith,
I invite you to attend one of the Buffalo Hunts or mid to long range shoots held here at the Ackley range. Not only will you be impressed with the distance we can obtain, but with the shooters as well. They are truly a wonderful bunch of guys.
Jay and Karen Weber do a fine job of running these shoots and they keep things moving right along.
There are others that have contributed to the success of these events. They have a moving buffalo target now. Very interesting to watch.
Another thing that has taken off here is Silhouette shoots.
It is great to be able to accomidate these folks with distances that are not possible at any other range in IOWA. Prairie Fire Range is a great place.
If you decide to attend one of these shoots, let me know.
Kayleen
.
Kayleen, thanks for the invite.
Nice picture LG.
Black River Smith
What about using a large bore lever action such as 45/70 as a main match gun if it could be successfully loaded down to lower velocities ??? This brings up an issue when years ago when paint ball guns where first coming out there was a huge debate about the velocity that people had there paint ball markers set for (They are adjustable) when they showed up to play they also found the best velocity was to be set at Max 200 fps any more than that had a tendency to harm the target That would be a big OUCH. My point is to correct that and provide some scene of safety it has become mandatory for people to Chronograph there paint ball markers at the range before allowed to play. IT just takes one or two shots folks to find out in the case of NCOWS if someone has or is shooting to hot of rounds. Make it mandatory maybe as a part of the check in or sign up process END OF PROBLEM. People should have an idea of what they are shooting anyway. I will bet most do not or have not Chronographed there rounds they reload so for there own information and a great way to add to the safety of ranges in NCOWS .People would have less to be up set about and I bet the insurance companies would be happier.... Just a thought