What: Cowboy Airsoft
When: July 1st - July 4th 2017
Where: The Rocking M Ranch - Rice, Wa
Who: Spokane Devil Dogs
Airsoft website link:
http://www.spokanedevildogs.com
Main Factions:
Monumental Mining Company
The largest gold mine in the territory. Sends its shipments of gold to the Grizzly Gulch territorial bank. The company also employs the Pinkerton Agency as muscle to protect its gold shipments and keep an eye on its miners.
Rockin M Ranch
Largest spread in the territory. The Rockin M sells beef to Grizzly Gulch and the Monumental mine. And keeps on payroll a large contingent of professional cow punchers that ride the range and protect the herds.
Copper Butte Gang
Highwaymen, Rustlers, stone cold killers and bushwhackers. This gang targets every lucrative industry in the territory. And they will kill anyone who attempts to stand in their way. No one knows the where bouts of their hideout, nor who the members are. It's rumored that some prominent citizens of Grizzly Gulch may be involved....
Grizzly Gulch Gentleman's League
Mostly made up of Grizzly Gulch business owners. Whose business is mainly selling goods and services to the Monumental Mining Company. Including liquor, gambling and prostitution. They also have the town Mayor and Sheriff in their pocket.
More info to follow
This is what I've come up with thus far. Feedback is appreciated.
----------------------------------
"The Chronicles of Grizzly Gulch" Rule Set
All Airsoft guns must be,
1. Lever action rifle
2. Single action six gun
3. Double barrel shotgun
4. Break top six gun
FPS limits are as follows:
400-600 FPS - 75 ft engagement distance limit
0-400 FPS - point blank - no limit
Safety glasses are required to be worn at all times.
Do not intentionally target your opponents head or face!
Horses/Mules are allowed in game play. Please do not target horses! Fly netting or some other form of eye protection is required for horses.
Old West Dress:
With the popularity of the Single Action Shooting Society it's easy to build an impression. Numerous online stores cater to this time period. Movies like Tombstone are actually very accurate with their wardrobe selections. Watch it to get some ideas.
Some DIY guidelines to remember.
1. Blue jeans were only invented by Levi Strauss in 1873. Trousers came in a multitude of colors and patterns. Cowboys typically shunned blue jeans as common laborer clothing. Cowboys typically wore saddle trousers in black or brown with no butt pockets.
2. Men's trousers of the day had no belt loops, they wore rivet style suspenders.
3. Men wore felt hats of all shapes and styles.
4. Women wore dresses.
5. Gun belts were not of the Hollywood Buscadero style that came later. Most were the Mexican loop style holster.
6. The zipper was not invented until 1893.
7. Leather boots were usually worn outside of trousers, so that your trouser legs did not get muddy. Paved streets in the west did not exist.
8. SASS has something called "spirit of the game" in which it's participants are asked to do their best to dress the part and not try to cheat the rules. We also will strive to carry on this tradition.
Gameplay:
Grizzly Gulch is an open continuous world. You may either choose to join a faction or remain an individual. You may also form alliances with factions if you so choose. You must also choose an alias for your character. I.E. Deadeye Dick, Big Sam, Calamity Jane, etc. The open world never sleeps, be prepared to wear your safety glasses to bed, you could be defending yourself at anytime. Your also free to remove yourself from the game play at any time and take a break out of bounds.
Leave your modern accoutrements at the parking area! Cell phones, flash lights, tennis shoes, etc. Items that must be in game will be hidden with wood, leather, paint, etc. We will strive to make all items in game play pre 1900 esque.
If you are hit with a non ricochet Airsoft BB, you have two options. You may either send for a doctor or have a buddy or concerned citizen bring you to the doctors office in Grizzly Gulch. This service is not for free. Doctors just like any proprietor charges money for his or her services. Prices will be agreed upon before services are rendered. If you are alone and hit you must wait 5 minutes before proceeding to the Doc at Grizzly Gulch.
When you are struck by a BB you will die in a loud grotesque manner (falling on your back, not prone!) keeping in the spirit of the game. Shouting matches of "I shot you....no you most certainly did not you blasted #%* varmint", ruins the experience of fellow participants and will not be tolerated. If someone is not calling their hits, tell a administrator, and we will give the person a talking to. Airsoft is a game of honor, it's not paintball, nothing marks your clothing, be honest.
If you are shot and wounded five individual times and patched up by the Doc four times YOUR ALIAS IS DEAD. And will be delivered to the ever after upon entrance to Boot Hill. Your in game cash holdings will be confiscated by the Grizzly Gulch territorial bank upon your death. The person will then be forced to pick a new alias and start over in the game.
Your alias if arrested and convicted of murder, attempted murder, theft over 200 dollars, horse rustling, cattle rustling, claim jumping or any crime deemed worthy of a hanging by the territorial judge.... your alias shall be hung by the neck until dead. And will be buried upon Boot Hill.
Each alias is given 50 territorial dollars at the start of its life. Money can be made after that by working for a faction. Gambling. Theft. Mining. Gifting. Assassination. Rewards. Selling wares or services. Rustling. Extortion or Bribes. If you run out of territorial dollars you can purchase more at the territorial bank in exchange for USD.
Main Factions:
Monumental Mining Company
The largest gold mine in the territory. Sends its shipments of gold to the Grizzly Gulch territorial bank. The company also employs the Pinkerton Agency as muscle to protect its gold shipments and keep an eye on its miners.
Rockin M Ranch
Largest spread in the territory. The Rockin M sells beef to Grizzly Gulch and the Monumental mine. And keeps on payroll a large contingent of professional cow punchers that ride the range and protect the herds.
Copper Butte Gang
Highwaymen, Rustlers, stone cold killers and bushwhackers. This gang targets every lucrative industry in the territory. And they will kill anyone who attempts to stand in their way. No one knows the where bouts of their hideout, nor who the members are. It's rumored that some prominent citizens of Grizzly Gulch may be involved....
Grizzly Gulch Gentleman's League
Mostly made up of Grizzly Gulch business owners. Whose business is mainly selling goods and services to the Monumental Mining Company. Including liquor, gambling and prostitution. They also have the town Mayor and Sheriff in their pocket.
Grizzly Gulch buildings
Block house
Saloon
Jail house
Bank
Court house
Mercantile
Rockin M ranch
Barn
Corrals
Monumental Mining Company
Mine shack
Mine
Ore cart
---------------------------------------------
More ideas.
Grizzly Gulch buildings will be easily constructed wood facades and floors with a wall tent set up behind it. As Cowboy Airsoft grows we can construct more permanent structures.
Gold and Silver painted rocks will be hidden around the ranch to be "mined". And can be sold for cash at the territorial bank. Mining claims can also be purchased at the territorial courthouse if you think you have found a "Rich" area. All gold and silver that has yet to be picked up within a Mining claim is the sole property of the Mining claim owner. Anyone caught by the claim owner jumping his claim can be shot, or turned into the proper authorities.
Rustling cattle....I have not figured this one out yet. Obviously even though I have real cattle on the ranch, and some of you may legitimately rope, I think it's too dangerous of a undertaking. Maybe we could use Roping dummy steer heads as currency, with herds being represented by steer heads attached to straw bales. Rustlers could simply ride or walk up and steal the roping heads, or get shot by cow punchers in the process. Need help on this one.
Outlaw activity needs some protection. What? Hear me out. Airsoft is a game of conflict, conflict is what makes it exciting. But we are dealing with limited people numbers. I'm thinking about making a rule that if during a crime an outlaw has his face covered, the sheriff cannot take a description from the victim or bystanders. Which is kinda Hollywood esque really. Ideas?
Your cash. If your alias dies in the game the cash on your body is confiscated. It may behoove a person if the alias has been shot a few times to either hide the cash or gift it to a buddy. Payroll, I think should be paid at 6 pm each day, the end of a "work" day. Cowpunchers, miners, Pinkerton agents can all hit town for a night of festivities? Outlaws and their cut of the loot are on their own to collect.
Rustling cattle- Each steer will be a head mounted to a saw horse, with a "steer certificate" attached to it. You must rope the steer with a rope and then take the certificate. Certificates can be traded for cash at the territorial bank.
Rustlers and cowboys must have ropes on their person. It's a tool of the trade. You cannot work for the Rockin M ranch or rustle its cattle without a rope.
Miners must have a pickaxe in their possession to mine gold and silver and to stake mining claims.
Thats all for now but there will be more.
Sounds like it would be a blast! If only I was in your neck of the woods. But... I'm thinking that including animals could have bad results. Don't want anyone getting hurt when a stray shot causes the critter to buck and kick. Just my .02 cents.
It's always a risk for sure.
But I've packed mules in the rocky mtns while dealing with paper wasps and the bald headed hornet bastards that burrow :)
It won't be that bad.....
This looks like fun, too bad I am on the opposite side of the country. Don't forget to get video and post it for us to see.
I think in order to get this off the ground we are going to need some sort of trailer.
Airsofters are reluctant to build a cowboy impression and buy cowboy Airsoft guns. And cowboy action shooters are reluctant to buy airsoft guns.
But I'm committed to doing this no matter how many show up.
If it weren't for the matter of lodging... and a ticket... and an airsoft set up, I'd be there :)
Um .... Being .. Um .. Committed isn't necessarily a good thing ??
Coffinmaker ;D
At the NC state match years ago a couple of shooters decided on doing The Lone Ranger and Tonto as their match personas and to complete the image were going to arrive on horseback. The match directors nixed the horse idea as too dangerous but it would have been pretty cool. In today's world it's all about liability.
This sounds like a ton of fun. I wish I was in the area to participate!
Please don't take this the wrong way. The cardinal rule of any real shooting sport is you don't point your firearm at something you don't want to destroy. As CAS shooters we have this drilled into us from the first shoot we attend, don't break your 170. I just can't wrap my head around shooting folks with airsoft, paint ball or lazer tag. Though pb and lazer tag would be the least unsafe as the guns are so non gun. Airsoft guns are just too realistic. But they all create a dangerous mindset IMHO. With a little bit of carelessness I could see a tragedy happening. They've already occurred when police get a 'man with a gun' call and the gun turns out to be a toy. But, good luck on your match and maybe I'm all wet and this will catch on. First person shooter video games certainly are popular. I've created numerous monthly CAS shoots, built lots of props and even tried to get a military category started in SASS but you are trying to create an entire Airsof shooting discipline. Stay safe.
Ed,I see where you're coming from. Guns have the potential to take a life in an instant, so special rules are created to deal with them: treat every gun as if it's loaded, never point it at anything you don't want to kill, etc. But while the airsoft guns are called guns, and look like guns, they do not generally have the capacity to take a life with a moment of carelessness. Thus, the same rules don't need to apply.
A shortage of common sense is why we have to have so many rules in the first place. I know it's one of the things that so many people on this board are vehemently opposed to (a "nanny state"), as most people feel like they understand how things work and don't need the rules. I guess I come down the middle on it: if breaking a rule can have devastating consequences, then we probably need the rule, "common sense" or not. Seems like this is a situation where the normal rules aren't needed.
One suggestion, though: on the days when you're having events, let the Sheriff or Police know when and where, so they don't get calls from concerned citizens and come out with guns blazing. At my old martial arts dojo they would do black belt training in the woods at night. Other brown and black belts armed with real knives and batons, and fake guns, would spend a couple hours attacking the candidate. If they defended themselves, they got their black belt. People frequently ended up with black eyes, bloody noses, and rarely sprains or broken bones. The police were always warned ahead of time, because invariably some hiker would see what appeared to be a team of ninjas attempting an assassination and lose their minds. ;)
Since you asked for feedback....so here you are...
You are new here and may not realize , quite frankly you are fishing in the wrong pond
AIRSOFT Games I suppose might be OK I guess, for the youth fandom & and fast healing .... ::)
but for older, slow healing CAS shooters not so much, by in large most here are north of 55 years.
you are shopping to flesh out your vision in the wrong age group.
Onthe one hand, I say "good luck to you".
On the other hand, I am with Major2 and esp Baltimore Ed: there have already been problems with "live gun re-enactors"
when some psycho deliberately slipped in live ammo . Fortunately those have been few and far between, but it happens.
yhs
prof marvel
A psycho could just as easily go nuts at a match and unload his firearm into the bystanders. Why worry about such things? Seems like looking for a reason for it to fail.
I think it's awesome, and I think if you play it right you should be able to find enough people to make it worthwhile.
Quote from: OldSchoolBoy on June 05, 2017, 03:46:29 PM
Why worry about such things? Seems like looking for a reason for it to fail.
Be happy that there are people like myself who make it our business to worry.
As a retired engineer, it has been my job for over 40 years to solve problems and look for and minimize failure points and disaster scenarios.
When your job is to make airplanes fly, a HUGE part of the job is to make absolutely certain that the airplanes do not fall out of the sky.
This includes more phases than I guess you can imagine, and also includes failure prediciton and disaster planning.
I do not claim we should wrap everybody up in foam and bike helmets and I do not go as far as some of the SASS rules.
But thinking thru the possibilities, assigning a risk factor, deciding which ones to address, and planning for them goes along way towards keeping things happy and making sure people don't end up with holes in them.
Both LEO's and Military have these sorts of airsoft rigs for training in funhouses. But they are VERY strictly controlled and monitored.
And AD's still happen there because people are human, and people screw up.
I also used to do fencing, stick fighting, and 'broadsword fighting' stuff, and martial arts, and every year there is an accident. Every couple of years a foil breaks and someone gets run thru. Everybody expects FENCING to be as safe as houses.
Planning can help mitigate such things, and proper planning, equipment safety checks, double checks, and etc actually do prevent many.
My list of "I told ya so, saw it right off" is longer than I will bother the audience with.
This reminds me of an old conversation with a "Marketeer" who claimed we should only bother with bad stuff
after it happens cuz such planning efforts cost too much.
yhs
prof marvel
I understand the engineer mentality to some degree--I'm a certified Apple consultant, and have spent the past eight years supporting businesses and users, everything from training and troubleshooting to network deployment. Certainly it pays to try and think about ways things can go wrong, but I don't see what the huge concern is here. Airsoft isn't a new sport; it's actually been around longer than CAS (worldwide). Yes, it attracts a much younger demographic than CAS, but the assumption that young people are all idiots who can't keep from constantly maiming themselves is at least somewhat overblown. ;)
Fencing is generally considered a safe sport, but you've seen people get injured. Should they shut down the fencing school? Surely as an engineer you would have a difficult time arguing that the risks of airsoft outweigh the risks of CAS, which uses real firearms. Either way, if he's going to organize an event he'll have to have insurance and/or liability waivers, same as any other event of this type.
I guess I'm just surprised that people who participate in a sport that asks you to draw a gun out of a holster and shoot it as fast as possible would be getting wound up because some people want to shoot plastic BB's at each other.
Quote from: Baltimore Ed on June 04, 2017, 02:56:00 PM
Please don't take this the wrong way. The cardinal rule of any real shooting sport is you don't point your firearm at something you don't want to destroy. As CAS shooters we have this drilled into us from the first shoot we attend, don't break your 170. I just can't wrap my head around shooting folks with airsoft, paint ball or lazer tag. Though pb and lazer tag would be the least unsafe as the guns are so non gun. Airsoft guns are just too realistic. But they all create a dangerous mindset IMHO. With a little bit of carelessness I could see a tragedy happening. They've already occurred when police get a 'man with a gun' call and the gun turns out to be a toy. But, good luck on your match and maybe I'm all wet and this will catch on. First person shooter video games certainly are popular. I've created numerous monthly CAS shoots, built lots of props and even tried to get a military category started in SASS but you are trying to create an entire Airsof shooting discipline. Stay safe.
Airsoft is huge. And global. I'm not creating anything. It's been here as long if not longer than CAS. Created by Asians who could not own real firearms. Cowboy Airsoft guns are just a small small segment of the Airsoft guns out there.
Airsoft operations are conducted generally on private property. People understand they are playing Airsoft. If you freak out and go to the parking lot to pull out your real gun? The SWAT team will be enroute.
I'm a hunter and a cowboy action shooter and I agree about the not pointing real guns at people. But Airsoft is different and is used by our military and police for training.
And it's just plain fun. And safe.
Quote from: Professor Marvel on June 04, 2017, 08:38:42 PM
Onthe one hand, I say "good luck to you".
On the other hand, I am with Major2 and esp Baltimore Ed: there have already been problems with "live gun re-enactors"
when some psycho deliberately slipped in live ammo . Fortunately those have been few and far between, but it happens.
yhs
prof marvel
Airsoft cannot fire real ammo.
Quote from: Major 2 on June 04, 2017, 04:47:59 PM
Since you asked for feedback....so here you are...
You are new here and may not realize , quite frankly you are fishing in the wrong pond
AIRSOFT Games I suppose might be OK I guess, for the youth fandom & and fast healing .... ::)
but for older, slow healing CAS shooters not so much, by in large most here are north of 55 years.
you are shopping to flesh out your vision in the wrong age group.
No way.
I'm pushing 50 and there are men much older than me that play it. The rule is us old codgers buy a jeep, or a deuce and a half and mount a MG on top and drive around shooting people!
In fact in the 90's when I discovered the sport it was strictly an ADULT game. No one under 18 allowed end of discussion. Kids played paintball. And rich adults did reenacting.....
The great thing about a open world cowboy Airsoft game is.....you can sit in the saloon all day if you want. No military style missions or patrols. It's a civilian game......what or how much you participate is up to you.
This is a typical Airsoft event.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J42Q0R9Tdtw
' pushing 50 ' .... eh ? I got tee shirts that old ::) no really .... 60's era Surfer Tee's
''... and there are men much older than me that play it. ''
All righty then , judging by the crowd lining up on this board ta participate .... I stand corrected ... OH ! no wait ...
OK, not being a barstitch, or stomping on anybody, just having a nice discussion here.
It seems that I am either being "too vague" or need to take some folks by the hand and lead them down the train of thought.
Besdies MIL and commercial Avionics, I was also involved in Engineering Liability and legal case studies.
So here's a small sample, and some "I told you so's"
OldSchool Boy - no offense, but the commercial world ( no matter how technically intense) is not the same as MIL-SPEC Avionics.
If I screw up the software, PEOPLE DIE. The commercial world (outside of avionics) has decided the planning and testing involved "costs too much" and they will deal with a problem only after it happens, in court. I know because that's what Corporate Legal told me in 3 different commercial sfotware companies.
Also, There are few commerial comparisons outside of medicine. And even then there have been several
interesting Liability cases in which Medical Software failed and killed people ( recent: targeting 3-D XRAY Cancer machines; and pacemaker sensors ). The triple-safe safety mentality simply wasn't embedded in the process or the programming mindset. The hardware had the failsafes in, as those design engineers had the mindset, but the software geniuses over-road it .
>>"Fencing is generally considered a safe sport, but you've seen people get injured. Should they shut down the fencing school?"
I used that as an example of "stuff happens", and to illustrate that "you better be ready for it".
Not saying anybody should shut down the sport.
I AM saying it is a real-world risk that needs to be brought up, discussed, and planned for.
If you don't consider possible risks and plan for them , then you deserve the problems you get when they happen.
THOSE WHO DON'T LEARN FROM HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT.
Here's one "I told ya so, saw it right off" but iit ended well:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix-breaking/2017/05/26/suspect-phoenix-comicon-identified-police/348697001/
Ya want another "I told you so"? You won't like it but it is a perfect example.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/26/us/arizona-girl-fatal-shooting-accident/index.html
*everything* is wrong about that situation.
children are not strong.
this child had no shooting experience
the instructor put himself in a "wrong position" - any Drill Instructor would have kicked his butt
they "shoulda known better" . do I really need say more?
Wapaloosie -
Part of me kinda likes the idea - sort of a real live version of Westworld.
Part of me takes pause".
>>airsoft can't fire live ammo
- ummm. right. we know that, I never said they could. I also brought up that LEOS and MIL use airsoft in training.
But LEO 's and MIL have very visible methods to discern airsoft from live-fire weapons. The ones I am familiar with also have a strict protocol involving live-weapon check-in/check-out and airsoft check-in/check-out AND several checkpoints before during and after that the weapons are inspected and confirmed to be what they are supposed to be. And LOTS of observes/coaches/referees .
If you are shooting crap at people, you HAVE to be safe
All it takes is a guy playing an airsoft game, having an airsoft gun identical to his SAA and getting tired, dehydrated, or distracted and mixing them up inadvertantly. Can't Happen? Tell the FBI trainers at the Albuquerque training center. They can show you the 9mm holes in the training house walls.
I am Not talking about "If you freak out and go to the parking lot to pull out your real gun? " -
I am talking about ACCIDENTS.
In our games, drawing from a holster , you STILL are aiming at a target and not a human. If Someone deliberately points
their piece at a person, EVERYBODY hollars at them. If somebody "goes nuts" with a live firearm there are MANY people there
who will notice RIGHT WAY and are able to stop them .
In Airsoft, you have *everybody* pointing an airsoft toy that looks like a real gun at *everybody else*. You are gonna need a lot of trained referees.
What you MIGHT do is go (with hat in hand) to talk to the LEO's who do this stuff ( or the people who run it for them)
and bounce your ideas and plans off of THEM, since they already "been there, done that, and got the liability insurance".
BigThing: Liability Insurance. You are gonna need it.
So.
You asked for feedback.
We gave it.
You are free to do as you like,
but don't complain if you don't care for our replies of caution.
Oh, and if a passenger on the bus stands up and tells the driver he is about to drive into a sinkhole, is it really a good idea
to argue with him?
hope this helps, and good luck.
prof marvel
OK.
After my wall of text, I loked over this thread again.
and I went over to the OP's AIRSFOT website.
and I changed my mind.
FITST: I agree with Ed completely:
Quote from: Baltimore Ed on June 04, 2017, 02:56:00 PM
Please don't take this the wrong way. The cardinal rule of any real shooting sport is you don't point your firearm at something you don't want to destroy. As CAS shooters we have this drilled into us from the first shoot we attend, don't break your 170. I just can't wrap my head around shooting folks with airsoft, paint ball or lazer tag. Though pb and lazer tag would be the least unsafe as the guns are so non gun. Airsoft guns are just too realistic.
OSB - I have to respectfully disagree with this:
Quote from: OldSchoolBoy on June 04, 2017, 04:42:50 PM
Ed,I see where you're coming from. Guns have the potential to take a life in an instant, so special rules are created to deal with them: treat every gun as if it's loaded, never point it at anything you don't want to kill, etc. But while the airsoft guns are called guns, and look like guns, they do not generally have the capacity to take a life with a moment of carelessness. Thus, the same rules don't need to apply.
These airsoft guns are indistinguishable from the real thing. I agree with Ed that it is a very bad thing to encourage people to aim and shoot a weapon at another person as a game.
I am sure there are a whole bunch of folks that disagree and think we are raining on their parade.
But that 's my my opinion, as well as others here.
There are places for traoning, and there are places for games. I think these
realistic airsoft "games" cross the line.
I think the OP is posting in the wrong forums.
We are about safety, not pointing weapons at other live people.
stay safe
prof marvel
Prof, don't fret, I have no problem with a polite discussion. I'm not trying to attack anyone, just trying to understand.
You've reinforced your arguments, but I think the problem is that I'm just not getting what your conclusion is. The impression that I got is that you're arguing that this airsoft event shouldn't d happen because of inherent risks, namely that people will make a mistake and kill someone because they may confuse the airsoft guns for the real thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
If that is in fact the point you're making, then my slippery slope is that you shouldn't be involved in CAS/SASS/NCOWS etc because the risks there are dramatically higher. In order for someone to accidentally murder another airsoft player, they'd have to bring a real gun to the event. Why would they? It's an airsoft game, no real guns need to be involved. CAS has range officers that check firearms to make sure they safe, why couldn't the same be done at an airsoft event?
How many CAS shooters get killed by police because they're using real guns? For that matter, how often does it happen to airsoft players; should a single incident be enough to force airsoft to be banned? What about 50? What about 500? If you agree that at some point the risks require rules, do those same rules not apply to actual guns? If not, why not?
Please understand, I'm not berating you, nor am I trying to even persuade you. I'm asking honest questions to try and understand where you're coming from, because I'm genuinely confused why people who participate in a sport using real firearms would be concerned over the theoretical risks of using fake firearms?
Here's my take: Yes, there's some risk involved, as with any other activity. Anyone who participates needs to know the rules, and sign something saying they accept responsibility for those risks. If you're not comfortable with the risks, don't participate. I apply these same rules to pretty much everything, I suppose because I'm a bit more libertarian when it comes to personal responsibility. Not to say anyone else needs to agree with me, but I would like to understand why they don't, because maybe I'm wrong and need to consider it more. Happens all the time. :)
Hang ON!! Everybody just STOP for a minute and WAIT!!
I gotta go make another POT of POP CORN and open 'nother Ale.
Coffinmaker
;D
I know it's really hard to get tone from a post. Emojis help, but they're not perfect. Take my word for it: I'm genuinely not trying to say I'm right, I'm trying to say I'm confused.
Let me take another cant on cowboy air soft vs CAS. You say that a/s is very popular overseas because real firearms are illegal to own, also that a/s is popular here for kids who obviously can't have access to real firearms and adults who choose to use a/s guns instead of real guns. Dollars to donuts, adults in the states who own a/s guns don't own real guns, except possibly as training aids. Why would you invert in a/s if you could buy a real firearm ( make believe full auto possibly excepted)? Lord knows there are plenty of real shooting sports to participate in, cas, ipsc, idpa, zsa, zoot shooters, wild bunch, rifle and pistol bullseye, skeet, clays, 3-gun, rimfire challenge, steel challenge, bowling pin, just to name a bunch. IMHO, Air soft shooters don't come from the ranks of shooters already involved in the shooting sports that constantly teach safety and correct gun handling. They come from the toy world where you point your cap-gun at your opponent, pull the trigger and yell 'you're dead'. As I said earlier, it's the mindset that man on man air soft teaches that is what makes mixing airsoft and CAS not a good idea.
I'll take some of that pop corn there, Coffinmaker.
Quote from: Professor Marvel on June 05, 2017, 10:57:23 PM
OK, not being a barstitch, or stomping on anybody, just having a nice discussion here.
It seems that I am either being "too vague" or need to take some folks by the hand and lead them down the train of thought.
Besdies MIL and commercial Avionics, I was also involved in Engineering Liability and legal case studies.
So here's a small sample, and some "I told you so's"
OldSchool Boy - no offense, but the commercial world ( no matter how technically intense) is not the same as MIL-SPEC Avionics.
If I screw up the software, PEOPLE DIE. The commercial world (outside of avionics) has decided the planning and testing involved "costs too much" and they will deal with a problem only after it happens, in court. I know because that's what Corporate Legal told me in 3 different commercial sfotware companies.
Also, There are few commerial comparisons outside of medicine. And even then there have been several
interesting Liability cases in which Medical Software failed and killed people ( recent: targeting 3-D XRAY Cancer machines; and pacemaker sensors ). The triple-safe safety mentality simply wasn't embedded in the process or the programming mindset. The hardware had the failsafes in, as those design engineers had the mindset, but the software geniuses over-road it .
>>"Fencing is generally considered a safe sport, but you've seen people get injured. Should they shut down the fencing school?"
I used that as an example of "stuff happens", and to illustrate that "you better be ready for it".
Not saying anybody should shut down the sport.
I AM saying it is a real-world risk that needs to be brought up, discussed, and planned for.
If you don't consider possible risks and plan for them , then you deserve the problems you get when they happen.
THOSE WHO DON'T LEARN FROM HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO REPEAT IT.
Here's one "I told ya so, saw it right off" but iit ended well:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/phoenix-breaking/2017/05/26/suspect-phoenix-comicon-identified-police/348697001/
Ya want another "I told you so"? You won't like it but it is a perfect example.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/26/us/arizona-girl-fatal-shooting-accident/index.html
*everything* is wrong about that situation.
children are not strong.
this child had no shooting experience
the instructor put himself in a "wrong position" - any Drill Instructor would have kicked his butt
they "shoulda known better" . do I really need say more?
Wapaloosie -
Part of me kinda likes the idea - sort of a real live version of Westworld.
Part of me takes pause".
>>airsoft can't fire live ammo
- ummm. right. we know that, I never said they could. I also brought up that LEOS and MIL use airsoft in training.
But LEO 's and MIL have very visible methods to discern airsoft from live-fire weapons. The ones I am familiar with also have a strict protocol involving live-weapon check-in/check-out and airsoft check-in/check-out AND several checkpoints before during and after that the weapons are inspected and confirmed to be what they are supposed to be. And LOTS of observes/coaches/referees .
If you are shooting crap at people, you HAVE to be safe
All it takes is a guy playing an airsoft game, having an airsoft gun identical to his SAA and getting tired, dehydrated, or distracted and mixing them up inadvertantly. Can't Happen? Tell the FBI trainers at the Albuquerque training center. They can show you the 9mm holes in the training house walls.
I am Not talking about "If you freak out and go to the parking lot to pull out your real gun? " -
I am talking about ACCIDENTS.
In our games, drawing from a holster , you STILL are aiming at a target and not a human. If Someone deliberately points
their piece at a person, EVERYBODY hollars at them. If somebody "goes nuts" with a live firearm there are MANY people there
who will notice RIGHT WAY and are able to stop them .
In Airsoft, you have *everybody* pointing an airsoft toy that looks like a real gun at *everybody else*. You are gonna need a lot of trained referees.
What you MIGHT do is go (with hat in hand) to talk to the LEO's who do this stuff ( or the people who run it for them)
and bounce your ideas and plans off of THEM, since they already "been there, done that, and got the liability insurance".
BigThing: Liability Insurance. You are gonna need it.
So.
You asked for feedback.
We gave it.
You are free to do as you like,
but don't complain if you don't care for our replies of caution.
Oh, and if a passenger on the bus stands up and tells the driver he is about to drive into a sinkhole, is it really a good idea
to argue with him?
hope this helps, and good luck.
prof marvel
I'm asking for feedback on ideas within the game, not Airsoft.
BUT! It looks like I have become an ambassador for Airsoft in general on this forum. So I have no problem patiently addressing your concerns......
Airsoft is probably one of the safest sports you can participate in. Generally speaking you are NOT allowed to bring real firearms to an Airsoft game. There are exceptions with a few groups nationwide mixing blank fire in with Airsoft. They come from a reenactor back ground and have their own safety protocols in place.
But 99.9% of Airsoft groups are not going to allow real firearms onto the field for the exact reasons you have expressed.
All Airsoft games require eye protection of ansi Z87.1 to be worn at all times on the field.
And I think there is some confusion here, this is my first time promoting a cowboy Airsoft game. I have 20 years of experience running Airsoft games. Genres include, WW2, Vietnam, Russian vs NATO, CQC, US vs Taliban, etc, etc
I also have been shooting CAS on and off for about 10 years. And I do have some blank fire reenactment experience as well.
In all of those years I've seen some stitches from a fall on rocks and a chipped tooth. No broken bones, no loss of vision, no rambo psycho gun shot wounds, none of that......knock on wood.
People who play Airsoft understand it's Airsoft. Some of those people are into real firearms they call "real steel" and many are not and just stick with Airsoft.
Cowboy Airsoft guns are low ammo capacity and have a slow rate of fire. Most Airsoft games the rifles hold 300 rds per magazine and fire full auto. It's low risk even in the game of Airsoft which I feel is low risk.
Why? Why do this? Well....... I'm still of the generation that watched Bonanza and Gunsmoke as a kid. I was raised on a ranch and rode a horse and worked cows. Unfortunately the younger generations really have not experienced any of this. The cowboy way is dying and this is a way to spruce things up a bit with young people. Make it cool again!
And I have help with some older CAS guys who also participate in Airsoft. One does Dutch oven cooking which is a plus.
I have no doubt turn out will be low to start. Most of the 16 - 40 crowd is caught up about Navy SEALs or M4's and not Doc Holliday or Wild Bill Hickok or Colt SAA.
Quote from: Baltimore Ed on June 06, 2017, 05:41:05 PM
Let me take another cant on cowboy air soft vs CAS. You say that a/s is very popular overseas because real firearms are illegal to own, also that a/s is popular here for kids who obviously can't have access to real firearms and adults who choose to use a/s guns instead of real guns. Dollars to donuts, adults in the states who own a/s guns don't own real guns, except possibly as training aids. Why would you invert in a/s if you could buy a real firearm ( make believe full auto possibly excepted)? Lord knows there are plenty of real shooting sports to participate in, cas, ipsc, idpa, zsa, zoot shooters, wild bunch, rifle and pistol bullseye, skeet, clays, 3-gun, rimfire challenge, steel challenge, bowling pin, just to name a bunch. IMHO, Air soft shooters don't come from the ranks of shooters already involved in the shooting sports that constantly teach safety and correct gun handling. They come from the toy world where you point your cap-gun at your opponent, pull the trigger and yell 'you're dead'. As I said earlier, it's the mindset that man on man air soft teaches that is what makes mixing airsoft and CAS not a good idea.
I'll take some of that pop corn there, Coffinmaker.
Most adult Airsoft games are ran by former military personnel. Participating in both sports? The command and control structure is way more complex at a Airsoft event than a CAS shoot. It's not just safety, but logistics and keeping track of hundreds of people patrolling on thousands of acres. For days on end, even at night depending on the game.
CAS is basically park your rig, load your cart, walk 100 yards (maybe), attend safety brief, stage your weapons and get ready to shoot.
I think that Airsoft gets bad press, because kids without parental control do stupid stuff in public places. We come down hard on people like that because it's bad for Airsoft and it's bad for guns in general.
"...CAS is basically park your rig, load your cart, walk 100 yards (maybe), attend safety brief, stage your weapons and get ready to shoot. "
My point exactly ! " quite frankly you are fishing in the wrong pond "
Greetings OSB -
Quote from: OldSchoolBoy on June 06, 2017, 04:10:38 PM
Prof, don't fret, I have no problem with a polite discussion. I'm not trying to attack anyone, just trying to understand.
No worries, mate! as a philosophical discussion, I will continue, :-)
and address each of your points.
BTW Go to their website and you see these guys are actually doing full-uniform War Games.
Note: WAR GAMES.
They make no mention of insurance or referees or safety procedures or any real organization.
they are operating on remote private property , and I saw no mention of informing neighbors or LEO's.
they pride themselves on their realism.
Their "toys" are indistinguishable from live weapons.
If these folks
(http://www.spokanedevildogs.com/download/file.php?id=37&t=1)
showed up on one of the 40-100 acre properties nearby me and had not informed me i would on the phone to
the Law Dogs in a heartbeat.
Even Re-enactors do not allow pointing "blank firing weapons" at another person, but these are "War Games".
Quote
You've reinforced your arguments, but I think the problem is that I'm just not getting what your conclusion is. The impression that I got is that you're arguing that this airsoft event shouldn't d happen
I don't care if they run it or not. It's up to them. I will just choose not to play.
BUT the OP posted here on CAS City ( a totally different game) and literally asked for input and if we wanted to play.
That opened the door and I am happy to point out all the potential problems that they seem to be ignoring.
Quote
you're arguing ..... because of inherent risks, namely that people will make a mistake and kill someone because they may confuse the airsoft guns for the real thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Not correct.
My first point is about whether they have "appropriate" safety precautions, training and planning.
If they are just saying "oh yeah we are good", that doesn't cut it ; I have reviewed and critiqued too many badly thought out projects.
The second point is RULE 1:
"never point any weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot"not ANY projectile weapon.
Where does one draw the line?
paintball seems to be ok to most folks
BB guns and Pellet Guns are not OK to most folks.
There is a line that "airsoft " is crossing - especially due to "realism" and also I see a lot of airsofters are actively working
to increase power and range .
Quote
If that is in fact the point you're making, then my slippery slope is that you shouldn't be involved in CAS/SASS/NCOWS etc because the risks there are dramatically higher.
I disagree due to the following:
The SASS/ CAS sports have well thought out rules and regs, on paper, everybody has to read and abide and sign off on them.
The SASS/ CAS sports have numerous R.O. as well as everybody else watching out that all weapons are pointed downrange
The SASS/ CAS sports are run on safe ranges, well known to the locals and the LEO's
The SASS/ CAS sports have insurance
The SASS/ CAS sports have real first responders /EMTS onsite or instantly available
The SASS/ CAS sports
DO NOT allow pointing ANY weapon at another person.( are ye seeing a theme here? LOL )
Quote
In order for someone to accidentally murder another airsoft player, they'd have to bring a real gun to the event. Why would they? It's an airsoft game, no real guns need to be involved.
People do bring real firearms . It happens at many events. Especially at such very rural forrested events, where they are camping and cooking. Wanna face a bear with your airsoft weapon?
Usually they are "stowed" but mistakes happen.
A plan to reduce such mistakes should be in place.
Quote
CAS has range officers that check firearms to make sure they safe, why couldn't the same be done at an airsoft event?
As I pointed out, it could be done, but I do not see any plan in place for it to happen. Also, the number of Referees/ Safety officers
would need to be pretty large. Check out the Law Enforcement and Miliary training programs.
Quote
How many CAS shooters get killed by police because they're using real guns?
Straw man arguement.
SASS/ CAS events are on official ranges, well advertised and with local official approval. Not so these airsoft events.
Quote
For that matter, how often does it happen to airsoft players; should a single incident be enough to force airsoft to be banned? What about 50? What about 500? If you agree that at some point the risks require rules, do those same rules not apply to actual guns? If not, why not?
Not relevant to this discussion, that is literally another "straw man" arguement.
We are talking about critiquing his plans and how to make his event safe, not about banning it.
And, they are pointing their weapons at each other . We don't .
Quote
Please understand, I'm not berating you, nor am I trying to even persuade you. I'm asking honest questions to try and understand where you're coming from, because I'm genuinely confused why people who participate in a sport using real firearms would be concerned over the theoretical risks of using fake firearms?
Once again,
- they don't mention enough prior forethought
- they don't mention enough planning
- and my personal favorite " never point a weapon at anything you don;t intend to shoot"
Even Bill Jordan and Jeff Cooper disuaded people from shooting each at other with "wax loads"
Quote
Here's my take: Yes, there's some risk involved, as with any other activity. Anyone who participates needs to know the rules, and sign something saying they accept responsibility for those risks. If you're not comfortable with the risks, don't participate.
Yup, I plan not to, but for philosophical reasons, not due to risks.
Quote
I apply these same rules to pretty much everything, I suppose because I'm a bit more libertarian when it comes to personal responsibility. Not to say anyone else needs to agree with me, but I would like to understand why they don't, because maybe I'm wrong and need to consider it more. Happens all the time. :)
I actually agree you with "in general" - personal responsibilty has fallen by the wayside.
I personally disagree with "certain" SASS rules but adhere to them whilst playing "their game" .
On the other end of the spectrum, the one time I played paintball in my callow and distant youth, a couple of players got ejected.
A group showed up calling themselves a "squad" - They were lierally "Marine Wannabes" full surplus equip, etc. each had several combat knives, and rifles in their truck rifle racks. Got told to leave their knives in the vehilces.
During the game , one got all bent out of shape over a referee call. He reached for his knife sheath ( empty).
He got ejected, and escorted from the site by the sheriff. When I discussed it with the staff, they said they had seen it before, and were ready for "problems".
The paintball staff saw trouble when the "squad" showed up and started posturing, so they were ready. The staff seemed to have a "Baroom Bouncer" sense for trouble, they had plenty of staff, plenty of referees and the sheriff was already informed and patrolling nearby.
Soooo, yeah. My point is to think things through, be aware of and ready for "problems".
My Warnings and discussion based on prior experience , not just blowing smoke out my butt. LOL .
yhs
prof ( waxing philosophical ) marvel
Greetings Wapaloosie !
I see we cross posted, and you already discussed some of the rambling crap I had brought up.
Unfortunately your website is pretty thin, so that's all I had to go on.
Yup, "War Games" are different from our game.
If you guys feel you have it all covered, then more power to you, and good luck.
If you are on private land you should be fine, just inform the neighbors.
If you are on public land be sure to let everybody know so you don't scare the campers like our one group of
Mountain Man Trekkers did by accident. Campers Thought they were in a time-warp Indian Raid LOL
and just fyi, ( voice of experience, liability case studies) Waivers are good (but not worth much, once it goes to court) ,
Insurance is better, nobody wants to go bankrupt :-)
best
prof marvel
That picture was taken in the middle of 350 acre ranch outside of Rice, Wa.
Im sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest here. I thought i was trying to bring cowboys to airsoft :-\
Aha! I think I get the point (finally!). The concern seems to be that airsoft looks largely unregulated and unprofessional. I've actually participated in both airsoft and paintball. The airsoft event I was at was a commercial event in a designated area. There were rules, waivers, and all the rest. It was very professional and seemed no less safe to me than anything else where you run around and generally act silly. I assumed that's what Wapaloosie is trying to organize. Yes, I agree with you, if you just give realistic guns to people without any safety precautions you're asking for trouble. I don't think that's what he has in mind (but I'm assuming).
Phew!
Quote from: Wapaloosie on June 06, 2017, 07:58:32 PM
That picture was taken in the middle of 350 acre ranch outside of Rice, Wa.
Im sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest here. I thought i was trying to bring cowboys to airsoft :-\
Oh, I love me a good civil discourse! No hornets nest, just an exchange of opinions and discussion!
And since this is on the "Longbranch Saloon" this thread is in the right place !
I was concerned because years ago on another forum, one fellow was trying to promote a very poorly thought out
"shoot em up" game somewhat like yours, but not well thought out and using BP revolvers to shoot hardened paintballs.
Aaaaaannnndd that's as far as he thought it out!
Then, I mentioned the actor and tourists in Old Tucson who got shot by a live round slipped into the mix during one of the Tucson Gunfight shows.
Bad stuff happens. Ya gotta
have a plan to KEEP it from getting worse. ( mitigation management )
I am all about planning events and "disaster plans" , because Bad Stuff really happens in the real world.
One example: I kept telling our customers to have *and test* computer backups
and restores .
One customer found out the hard way, that the minimum wage guy they paid to change the tapes never did change them.
All they had was a single one week old backup. They went out of business when they got auditted.
Another customer took the backups, but never tested them . All backups were bad. Out of Business.
A third had 2 floors in the Twin Towers. All the backups were kept there, onsite . Out Of Business.
Another example:
( see you made me do it) the Bad Guys in London running down civilians with trucks. Could have been prevented ( or mitigated ) with the concrete barriers that are in common use at events over here. Some barriers are really pretty, too - just look at the big red balls in front of Target Stores. Didja think they were there "just for looks" ? they are spaced to stop vehicles from running over the shoppers. Target's Intent was mainly accident liabilty, but the "bad guy " aspect was also considered ( look, mr ceo, it's a plus! ) .
yhs
prof marvel
Quote from: Wapaloosie on June 06, 2017, 07:58:32 PM
That picture was taken in the middle of 350 acre ranch outside of Rice, Wa.
Im sorry if I stirred up a hornets nest here. I thought i was trying to bring cowboys to airsoft :-\
If it was in my area, I'd show up! Seems to me like you're giving it a lot of thought. Then again, I played paintball and ended up bleeding so I don't always make the best decisions. ;)
In response to Prof: British Airways recently had a major outage that grounded flights. The problem? Someone unplugged a server. Good lord, that's an expensive mistake.
Looks lke everybodies online!
Quote from: Wapaloosie on June 06, 2017, 06:03:36 PM
Most adult Airsoft games are ran by former military personnel. Participating in both sports? The command and control structure is way more complex at a Airsoft event than a CAS shoot. It's not just safety, but logistics and keeping track of hundreds of people patrolling on thousands of acres. For days on end, even at night depending on the game.
CAS is basically park your rig, load your cart, walk 100 yards (maybe), attend safety brief, stage your weapons and get ready to shoot.
I think that Airsoft gets bad press, because kids without parental control do stupid stuff in public places. We come down hard on people like that because it's bad for Airsoft and it's bad for guns in general.
Quote
And I think there is some confusion here, this is my first time promoting a cowboy Airsoft game. I have 20 years of experience running Airsoft games. Genres include, WW2, Vietnam, Russian vs NATO, CQC, US vs Taliban, etc, etc
Again ( due to crross-posting) Looks like you guys feel you have it all covered, more power to you, and good luck.
again, Waivers are good , Insurance is better, nobody wants to go bankrupt :-)
all the best
prof ( getting too old to run around the woods at night if I don't hafta ) marvel
It is interesting that there was a thought of bringing Cowboys into AirSoft. I doubt you'll find more than a couple of Cowboys even interested. Old School Boy not withstanding. You see, we're not training for the apocalypse. We're not training for the Walking Dead.
Understand this. The Military community has found people fight exactly the way they have trained. It's not necessarily real bright to deliberately train folks to actually shoot one another, which is exactly what this quasi military stuff does.
Here's the deal. CAS doesn't need AirSoft. Frankly, we're totally immersed in the game we already play. Asking folks to invest (AirSoft isn't cheap) in an entirely NEW game that is diametrically opposed to ALL the safety rules we currently play under is a fool's errand.
What an incredible waste of Band Width. (Yes. I certainly am opinionated. In this instance ... VERY)
Coffinmaker
(Carefully stepping off coffinmaker's lawn)
;)
Quote from: Coffinmaker on June 07, 2017, 07:57:35 PM
It is interesting that there was a thought of bringing Cowboys into AirSoft. I doubt you'll find more than a couple of Cowboys even interested. Old School Boy not withstanding. You see, we're not training for the apocalypse. We're not training for the Walking Dead.
Understand this. The Military community has found people fight exactly the way they have trained. It's not necessarily real bright to deliberately train folks to actually shoot one another, which is exactly what this quasi military stuff does.
Here's the deal. CAS doesn't need AirSoft. Frankly, we're totally immersed in the game we already play. Asking folks to invest (AirSoft isn't cheap) in an entirely NEW game that is diametrically opposed to ALL the safety rules we currently play under is a fool's errand.
What an incredible waste of Band Width. (Yes. I certainly am opinionated. In this instance ... VERY)
Coffinmaker
Yes....safety rules for Airsoft or Blank fire are quite different than freaking shooting REAL bullets at a target range. Thanks for clarifying that one!!!
The only bandwidth wasted here was your post.
.
If you don't wanna come? Then don't come! Pretty simple.
But I'm not going to debate the safety concerns of Airsoft with anyone anymore. It's a NON ISSUE. You can buy event insurance for civil war reenactments, Airsoft, paintball, laser tag, etc. Plenty of non lethal hobbies that actually DO point guns in some form or another at people.
And by the way, I got my start in cowboy action shooting when the local club invited our Airsoft group out for a meet and greet. Our booth was right next to the National Guard recruitment laser tag shoot house.......
If Airsoft some how confuses you with the operation of real guns and real bullets? I think it's probably best you don't own real firearms.