I'm considering offering a Cowboy 'El Presidente' side match at our annual event this summer. Thoughts, comments ... ???
It would run thusly:
- two paper or steel targets
- start back to targets, hands up
- on start signal, TURN, draw and fire (emphasis on the TURN)
- two rds on one, three on the other with first pistol
- three rds on one, two on the 2nd with second pistol
- total 10 rds
Many of us have shot 'El Presidente' in IPSC/IDPA, but I've never seen it offered in CAS.
Amongst the founders of what became IPSC, Jeff Cooper, Ray Chapman, Eldon Carl, etc., at Big Bear California was a young shooter Thell Reed Jr., who shot a Colt SAA .45 while the others ideas of what worked best were adapting the 1911 .45 ACP. One of the drills in their early competitions was the El Presidente. Apparently Thell Reed Jr. could shoot it with his SAA in 12 seconds which was the par time. That's 6 shots two on each target, reload, then another 6 shots. I would love to see a video of that if it exists.
DD
I heard Cooper describe that when I was at Gunsite. I too would love to see a video but, given the time line it would have to be a grainy copy off an 8mm or 16mm film. (smile)
PJ, if you're going to run it right you go one direction the first time and the opposite direction the second time. You might consider changing your firing order to: 2, 3, go to second gun and in the opposite direction shoot 2, 3 again. That way you end up with 5 hits on each target.
Just a thought,
Dave
What about:
5 targets (paper), 2 shotgun targets, guns on the table (pistols, rifle, shotgun)
Any order 4 on 5 and 2 shotgun, so much fun with blackpowder ;D
Guns on the table will not get the TO in a nervous state :o
This stage was/is always in the Philippsburg Star (open German Championship)
I like Dave T's suggestion. Any order that gives 5 rds per target would be fine.
It's closer to what Cooper intended. I don't want to be on a range with anyone not capable of turning, drawing and firing safely.
It would make a quick & dirty stage, no bottle necks.
I think we'll do it at our annual match this year.
Quote from: PJ Hardtack on February 02, 2020, 05:14:22 PMI think we'll do it at our annual match this year.
Let us know how it goes.
Dave
Quote from: Dirty Dick on January 24, 2020, 09:37:12 AM
Amongst the founders of what became IPSC, Jeff Cooper, Ray Chapman, Eldon Carl, etc., at Big Bear California was a young shooter Thell Reed Jr., who shot a Colt SAA .45 while the others ideas of what worked best were adapting the 1911 .45 ACP. One of the drills in their early competitions was the El Presidente. Apparently Thell Reed Jr. could shoot it with his SAA in 12 seconds which was the par time. That's 6 shots two on each target, reload, then another 6 shots. I would love to see a video of that if it exists.
DD
Why not use five targets instead of three? One on each, reload, one on each. Keep the back to the targets start; ask the shooter which way he is going to turn, move everyone else to the other side if you are nervous, is SOP in IPSC matches in Canuckistan.
Quote from: Dirty Dick on January 24, 2020, 09:37:12 AM
One of the drills in their early competitions was the El Presidente. Apparently Thell Reed Jr. could shoot it with his SAA in 12 seconds which was the par time. That's 6 shots two on each target, reload, then another 6 shots. I would love to see a video of that if it exists.
Wow! Any idea on how this was done? I mean, if the presume some 1,2 for the 1st shot (including turn and draw) and say 1,5 (0,3 avg) for for the following 5 (two times), the reload would happen in some 7,8 sec. from 6th shot to the 7th.
Or did he use more time shooting and less time reloading? In any case mind boggles!
-Bulldog
I was a Cooper devotee from day 1 and all of Cooper's associates, including Thell Reed were my heroes. This was before IPSC was founded and it was "Combat Pistol Shooting", the off-shoot of Cooper's California "Leatherslap" events.
In a photo series in "Cooper On Handguns", Reed is pictured on his 2nd shot with his Colt SAA before the raised hat of the timer was past belt level. He was shooting 1500 rds a week, all loaded on a single stage press. That's devotion and discipline.
Fast he was, but I very much doubt that anyone could do an "El Presidente" with a SAA in 12 seconds. In my prime with a 4" .357 S&W M66 I could do it in 10 seconds. The guys with the semis were doing 8 seconds or less.
Now it's being done in under 5 seconds. I believe that I've seen a video of a Fast Draw shooter doing it very fast with a pair of SAs, but he was a Klingon, like Jerry Miculek ... ;D
As for using 5 targets, that gets away from the dictum of two consecutive hits per target, the standard in IPSC.
PJ,
Thought of another way to do it. Put up three targets, just as in the standard Presidente. Pivot, draw and fire two, two, and one. Re-holster the empty gun and draw the second revolver. In the opposite direction again fire two, two and one. You would end up with three hits on each of the out-board targets and four hits on the middle one. Not perfect but closer in concept to the original idea.
Just sayin',
Dave
Yep, that'll work too.
We'll discuss it closer to the date of our annual shoot. I can already here the comment that it will be deemed to be unsafe for some to TURN, draw & fire.
As I see it, the job of the RO is to ensure that it happens in that order after proper instruction in a walk thru' and demo.
Quote from: PJ Hardtack on February 04, 2020, 10:57:48 AM
I was a Cooper devotee from day 1 and all of Cooper's associates, including Thell Reed were my heroes. This was before IPSC was founded and it was "Combat Pistol Shooting", the off-shoot of Cooper's California "Leatherslap" events.
In a photo series in "Cooper On Handguns", Reed is pictured on his 2nd shot with his Colt SAA before the raised hat of the timer was past belt level. He was shooting 1500 rds a week, all loaded on a single stage press. That's devotion and discipline.
Fast he was, but I very much doubt that anyone could do an "El Presidente" with a SAA in 12 seconds. In my prime with a 4" .357 S&W M66 I could do it in 10 seconds. The guys with the semis were doing 8 seconds or less.
Now it's being done in under 5 seconds. I believe that I've seen a video of a Fast Draw shooter doing it very fast with a pair of SAs, but he was a Klingon, like Jerry Miculek ... ;D
As for using 5 targets, that gets away from the dictum of two consecutive hits per target, the standard in IPSC.
Hhmmmnnnnnn.............I wonder if Jerry would accept the challenge? Too bad Ed McGivern never tried it.
Quote from: PJ Hardtack on February 04, 2020, 05:20:30 PMI can already here the comment that it will be deemed to be unsafe for some to TURN, draw & fire.
PJ,
I was early enough in the "practical" shooting game we had trouble getting permission to use public outdoor ranges. Experienced shooters, including NRA pistol types, found it appalling that we would ask people to move on the range with loaded guns in their hands. We had to convince them we were serious about safety and would call people on unsafe actions.
I wish you luck and keep fighting the good fight.
Dave
I was in on the ground floor of Practical Pistol Shooting in Canada and our biggest opponents were our fellow shooters!
We heard things like:
- the RCMP won't like it
- it will attract unsavoury people!
- it's illegal to shoot from a holster in Canada
If I get over ruled on the Cowboy "El Presidente", we'll simply do it facing the target, but I'll keep pushing.
I once offered my Great Western Arms .38 S&W Derringer to be used in a match and was over ruled due to the heavy trigger pull. I suggested pulling it with the middle finger, the trigger finger between the barrels and that was rejected as it would put some people's tips ahead of the muzzle.
PJ: you know I'm game for anything. That sounds like a great stage.
You might want to try it at the Chilako Trials and let us know how it worked out.
I'd like to be there, but ..... :-X
The earth has shifted ..... ::)
I have succeeded in convincing the club curmudgeon that a Cowboy "El Presidente" is safe and doable!
We'll do the version with three targets, two rds on each. Likely on steel for efficiency.
I sure would like to attend! Please post videos.
Our CAS match (along with many others) may not happen due to the Covis19 pandemic.
IPSC/BC had also cancelled all scheduled events and Black badge courses.
Stay home and self isolate - please !!!
Black Powder club at Lethbridge, AB has cancelled their shoots. I suspect that most shooting clubs will follow suit.