I don't do the GAF stuff but thought you guy's might be interested in this: The River Raisin Battlefield National Park had a military timeline this past weekend. Given that it is in Monroe (the home of Custer) I decided to do an early Indian wars persona, as a trooper might have appeared after leaving the Yellowstone and on the way to the LBH and history.
The companies were brought together at Ft. Lincoln leaving in Mid May and were clothed, accoutered, and horses tacked in all manner of gear ranging from CW to the latest 74 specification. Consequently a fun period to portray. I portrayed a trooper of French's company M under Reno's command as they went into battle.
I wore an issue gray wool flannel shirt, a private purchase hat, CW era dismonunted trousers lined with canvas, and a 74 blouse. My boots were the CW issue pegged artillery boot with the 59 spurs.
I carried the issue 73 SAA and springfield carbine. The pistol was carried in the unusual 72 holster with the cleaning rod and 360 degree swivel, 12 rds pistol in a modified issue CW cap box, and rifle rds in both a Dyer cartridge box and Hazen loops (50 rds per Godfrey). The belt with saber hangers was of 74 specification to include belt plate.
The horse was tacked correctly with CW era halter and bridle, for benefit of the horse that day I used a snaffle (incorrect although similar to a watering bit). The saddle followed the specifications of a 72. I used stirrup hoods although it is arguable as to whether Custer specified his companies not use them (Godfrey's comments). I was issued the 59 saddle bags, so needed to carry my meat can (the hated 72 type) in a 72 haversack which I hung from the offside of the horse. My saddle bags held two shoes, nails, and 50 rds of ammo. My early 72 type canteen hung from the near side of the cantel. My CW issue US blanket was wrapped in a type III shelter half and as described for June 25th my blouse was attached above it on the cantel do to the heat of the day. Like most troopers I left my great coat at the mouth of the Powder River, so my pommel held my forage sack with 15 pds of grain, my ground cloth, and my picket pin with 30 ft lariat. on the off side hung a CW era nosebag that carried my 68 specified sidelines, brush and curry comb. All in all close to 70 pounds of stuff. Skelar sites a reference where troopers were pitching stuff off of their saddle as they charged down Reno Creek in order to be in better fighting trim.
Hope you like the photo's - it is always a hoot sharing history with the public.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/RivRsn-8_zpseefob9yo.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/RivRsn-1_zpszqw9fkca.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/RivRsn-13_zpspozhfvi0.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/29c42071-d130-4db1-ac3c-88cbaf6dc718_zps3wfib0oj.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/Havrsk72_zpso0vafx0g.jpg)
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/RivRsn-3_zps2rlnfuwm.jpg)
Quote from: James Hunt on September 14, 2015, 12:50:15 PM
- it is always a hoot sharing history with the public.
Something often lacking among people, I've seen people sit around and complain people don't understand history but won't get off their duff and do anything about it, I set up a small set-up Friday in Mustang Greg's hometown at their living history days and baked a small biscuit for each of around 300 4th graders.
Nice set up.
Couple more with my friend Herr Schultz who is portraying an infantryman of the same era and wearing that horrible brace system - thankfully the cavalry quickly dispensed with it. Shows the near side horse accouterments.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/RivRsn-20_zpsoix8o40s.jpg)
Here examining the 72 holster and that home brewed Hoffman swivel
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/RivRsn-18_zpsyepch3pl.jpg)
Better get your company saddler to rivet the body of the holster to the belt loop before the whole shebang comes loose and you lose the pistol and holster when riding. With the company commander responsible monetarily for such loses, I'd be surprised if he didn't order all of his troops' holsters to be so modified! ;)
Terrific impression! Why not join the GAF. Nothing really required, but you sure could give a lot of pointers to the troops! :)
:o OH My Gosh!!!
you're actually taking your M-1872 Meat Can out and playing with it??Do you know what it's worth? :o What if you dent it?
Trailrider:
The comment from McChristian is that apparently revolver's were lost due to the 360 degree swivel. What were they thinking because I believe that the hoffman swivel with the stop was used on a bayonet frog prior to this or at the same time, it was incorporated into the 74 specification (Not sure how many of those made it to the LBH although the Hazen loops and Dyer pouch clearly did.)
From an experimental archaeology standpoint: The first time I mounted a horse with this holster was at this event. You have to swing your leg a bit higher than normal to clear the stuff on the cantel, as I did so and swung into the saddle I looked over at my holster and sure enough it had rotated 180 degrees and the top of the holster and revolver were pointed to the ground. Now this holster was in near new condition, the finial closure was tight but I am thinking that with some wear that pistol is on the ground. That is with a controlled mount. Imagine what would happen if you are trying to mount a terrified animal as Reno fly's past you with the information that if you want to save yourself follow him?
You would think that back in Philadelphia someone would have taken that prototype, handed it off to a private and watched him try an mount a rank horse. Apparently not and 1300 were made.
Quote from: Pitspitr on September 14, 2015, 02:54:49 PM
:o OH My Gosh!!!
you're actually taking your M-1872 Meat Can out and playing with it??Do you know what it's worth? :o What if you dent it?
Ha, ha -
I know the panic that must be going thru your heart at the moment, some fool destroying history. Actually MasterTinner just cranked out about 100 of these things on a special order. It is an outstanding repro - exact to the finest detail. Not sure if he has any left. He can be contacted on fb at www.facebook.com/tin.smith.9?fref=ts
Quote from: James Hunt on September 14, 2015, 03:05:46 PM
Ha, ha -
I know the panic that must be going thru your heart at the moment, some fool destroying history. Actually MasterTinner just cranked out about 100 of these things on a special order. It is an outstanding repro - exact to the finest detail. Not sure if he has any left. He can be contacted on fb at www.facebook.com/tin.smith.9?fref=ts
Whew! (Pitspitr sighs in relief)
I've only seen one original in person. the last one I saw sell brought $1200.
Thank you Sir for putting forth the effort to have such a wonderful display! There are plenty of people that see this stuff and remember it for the rest of their lives!
Quote from: Pitspitr on September 14, 2015, 05:59:42 PM
Whew! (Pitspitr sighs in relief)
I've only seen one original in person. the last one I saw sell brought $1200.
Here's a deal on one for $650, just because I like you so much!
http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/08_mess_gear/08_item_001.htm
Quote from: Delmonico on September 14, 2015, 01:03:08 PM
I set up a small set-up Friday in Mustang Greg's hometown at their living history days and baked a small biscuit for each of around 300 4th graders.
And thank you too Del for that hard work-I do love your bisquits-although I have tried to go light on those type things seeing they like to attack my midsection!!!
But 300 4th graders in a town? The population of my whole town is 452! I guess I really need to get out more. ;D
Quote from: Charles Isaac on September 14, 2015, 08:23:37 PM
But 300 4th graders in a town? The population of my whole town is 452! I guess I really need to get out more. ;D
There are 269 that live in Table Rock Nebraska, they bussed them in, some came almost 90 miles, half of downtown in store front museums, may be what saves the town.
That's a number more like I would figure. Seeing your part of the world gave me the feeling it was very sparsely populated-and I do like it that way!
Charles, that part of Nebraska is pretty populated compared to where we are. (I grew up about fifteen miles from Table Rock.)
Quote from: James Hunt on September 14, 2015, 12:50:15 PM
Hope you like the photo's -
Thanks for sharing these photos! I have to say that your set-up is finer than frog hair split three ways!
Quote from: James Hunt on September 14, 2015, 02:59:51 PM
Trailrider:
The comment from McChristian is that apparently revolver's were lost due to the 360 degree swivel. What were they thinking because I believe that the hoffman swivel with the stop was used on a bayonet frog prior to this or at the same time, it was incorporated into the 74 specification (Not sure how many of those made it to the LBH although the Hazen loops and Dyer pouch clearly did.)
From an experimental archaeology standpoint: The first time I mounted a horse with this holster was at this event. You have to swing your leg a bit higher than normal to clear the stuff on the cantel, as I did so and swung into the saddle I looked over at my holster and sure enough it had rotated 180 degrees and the top of the holster and revolver were pointed to the ground. Now this holster was in near new condition, the finial closure was tight but I am thinking that with some wear that pistol is on the ground. That is with a controlled mount. Imagine what would happen if you are trying to mount a terrified animal as Reno fly's past you with the information that if you want to save yourself follow him?
You would think that back in Philadelphia someone would have taken that prototype, handed it off to a private and watched him try an mount a rank horse. Apparently not and 1300 were made.
Even when the swivel was modified to limit the amount of swing, the prongs holding the swivel to the belt loop tended to pull loose, so the holster, gun and swivel fell off! I can't get at my other references beside Doug's, but IIRC either Lt. John Bourke, Crook's aide or possibly John Finnerty, the "Fightin' Irish Pencil Pusher" mentioned things like this. Eventually, orders came down for company saddlers to rivet the holster to the belt loop. The later holsters eliminated the swivel altogether. Just shows what happens when the REMF's design something without thinking it through or doing adequate testing.
But I still really appreciate your efforts at telling the true story of the Indian Wars troopers! Thanks, again! :)
Quote from: James Hunt on September 14, 2015, 03:05:46 PM
He can be contacted on fb at www.facebook.com/tin.smith.9?fref=ts
I don't FB. Is there any other way to contact him?
Quote from: Charles Isaac on September 14, 2015, 08:23:37 PM
Here's a deal on one for $650, just because I like you so much!
http://www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/08_mess_gear/08_item_001.htm
Still out of my price range, especially if there are repro's available.
I digress, but I do it so well, I'll probably not stop....
In my most recent read, "The Killing of Crazy Horse", Lt. Bourke's diary and journal entries were a major source of information. I certainly appreciate the effort that he and others made to document life before this digital, high-tech world we know today!
Pitspitr: I belong to a closed group on fb called centennial boys (1876). We all got together and placed an order for a bunch of these as someone had an original to pattern off of. We ordered them thru Master Tinner by messaging him on fb. However, I think this is the guy who runs Hot Dip Tin at: www.hotdiptin.com You can give that guy a try. My memory last spring was that this was a one time run, but with interest he may make more. If you do an early IW impression this and the 72 haversack is the ticket!
This guy worked as the tinsmith at Colonial Williamsburg I believe. It is great quality.
Showing off my meatcan and haversack.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/RivRsn-24_zpsoiaagefj.jpg)
James,
I believe I know who you are talking about.
While, if my memory serves me correctly, he did not work for Colonial Williamsburg, in a literal cense, He did produce a lot of tin wear for them.
The quality of his hot dipped tin sheet iron products is extremely high.
I know this from the five years I worked for CW.
James, PS: one last question, is your horse a Morgan?
My best,
Blair
Quote from: Blair on September 15, 2015, 03:04:37 PM
James, PS: one last question, is your horse a Morgan?
My best,
Blair
WOW! Blair, you're good if you can tell the name of James' horse from just a photo . . . :P ;)
RCJ
I am asking about a breed of horse, not the name.
my best,
Blair
John can be a bit of a joker, Blair.
If it was me portraying the trooper, the horse would probably have to be a Belgian, just to keep everything in proportion-since they didn't have many 6'2 225lb troopers.
Yep, I'd be with you Pony. Having me in the Cavalry would be bad for me AND the horses!
Quote from: Niederlander on September 15, 2015, 07:55:57 PM
Yep, I'd be with you Pony. Having me in the Cavalry would be bad for me AND the horses!
Yeah, if there weren't many at 6'2", you can sure bet there were even fewer 6'4 or 5"!
Y'all would have be sent to the Artillary, now move them guns around a lay them right and hand me that 12 pound iron ball.
Blair: My little pony is of unknown parentage, but she moves and looks like a Morgan - maybe some Arab thrown in. She is 30 yrs old! She has done it all from English to pushing cattle. She was my mounted shooting pony until we both retired from that two years ago. She is the boss of our three horse herd, and despite her size will take on the other two who outweigh her by at least 300 pounds. She is very un-mare like, much more steady like a gelding.
A cavalry horse had to be 15 hands in the IW period - although they would tolerate 14 and a half hands in the southwest do to the smaller stock available there. But the 15 hands was to make sure that the animal could carry 90 pounds of gear plus the trooper and not exceed 25% of the horses weight. Vegas here is about 14.1 hands but she could carry me and a 40 pound saddle on a dead run around an arena all day.
This little pony is bombproof and great around kids, the perfect critter to interact with the public. She seems to know you can't pitch a kid off just because they are digging their fingers into your hide or take a bite out of them because you got your eye poked. She is really a great little pony.
Vegas in her prime:
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/Vegas2006-1.jpg)
Not THAT is a good looking horse, even to my untrained eye!
Quote from: Blair on September 15, 2015, 04:56:41 PM
I am asking about a breed of horse, not the name.
my best,
Blair
I'm familiar with breeds, just my being silly, Blair. I'm also familiar with your vast store of knowledge.
Need to use more silly emoticons, I'm guessing . . .
RCJ
OOPS, I'm probably big enough, but you got to be smart to be in the artillery. I guess that leaves me in the infantry. ::)
James I primarily do 1876 infantry. The earliest meat can I've been able to find that I could afford was a M-1874 Type II. I did find documentation somewhere (I can't remember where right now) of a type II being found at the dump at LBH. I really like to get a M-1872 that I can afford. I'll check with the guy you mentioned.
Below is a few of pictures of my gear.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/211/grandarmyofthefrontiers.jpg)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/411/grandarmyofthefrontiers.jpg)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/255/1002229l.jpg)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/526/1002227m.jpg)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/855/1002226z.jpg)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/812/1002225g.jpg)
And I've seen that meat can filled to the top with meat loaf. ;)
Pitspitr: That is a GREAT impression you have, thanks so much for posting those pictures. You have GREAT stuff!!!! Lets start with the holy grail of the era the 72 hat - that one looks great (so where did you acquire it - Dirty Billy or someone I am willing to do business with again? Ha! It is amazing that we all are trying to get an accurate repro of a hat that was a despised piece of crap during the day). Then, I like what appears to be your 72 boots, mine are to CW spec from R. Land, and again where did you get yours (if they have brass screws in the soles I will worship your image). And the trowel bayonet: gotta love a military that would send its troops into the field with a garden implement. Really like the score you made on your correct knife with the point, I could only find a private purchase knife with the rounded tip. While my spoon and fork look correct, they are not US marked and I don't presume to make the argument that some military purchases were not marked. The 74 haversack with the rubberized flap and fair leather straps - sweet.
You have so much more, those were what caught my eye right out of the gate. Again, thanks for sharing this. Please stay in touch as I don't do military cav or military in general enough to really know what I am doing - I rely on my CW and IW infantry buddies here and now you to point me in the right direction.
FYI: I am fascinated by the advancing frontier so I do French Great Lakes fur trade, Colonial middle ground hunter, early Federal period fort hunter, western fur trade, commercial hide hunter 1872 - 74, and of course late 19th century cowboy. So I do have a theme in my excess. IW cav is my first foray into the military in a serious way. At 66 I feel somewhat like Private Smith in "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon."
I used to be a "hanger on-er" of the General Miles Marching and Chowder Society. The GMMCS was an IWP enlisted Infantry reenacting/living history organization that had incredibly strict historical standards (read anal). Everything brought to an encampment had to be either a museum quality repro or an original. Members had to choose a company and document each item they used at the annual encampment. Most of the membership were museum curators or park rangers from US Park Service Military sites so they had access to original museum specimens. Most were also incredibly skilled craftsmen who were able to recreate the objects they needed that aren't currently in production. Their problem became that as they aged there were fewer and fewer people that were interested in the IWP enough to spend the time and money required to meet their standards and as such the GMMCS ceased to exist. I acquired most of my equipment while pursuing full membership.
Now to your questions:
The M-1872 hat was made by Tom Langham. He worked at Ft Davis Texas the last I knew.
The M-1872 Mounted boots were made by Missouri Boot and Shoe at Neosho MO. Yes, they have the correct brass "French" screws. They don't list these on their web site anymore, but would probably still make them for you....They aren't cheap.
The Trowel bayonet is a decent paki repro. The scabbard is crap and someday I will rebuild it to make it decent. According to the 1876 ordnance returns the company of infantry stationed at Ft. Hartsuff (a local restored IWP fort) was A of the 23rd and they were issued the trowel bayonet as one of the evaluation units. Since I did living history there for around 15 years I had to have one.
My silverware is US marked. I don't use the knife since it appears to have gone though a fire and is in pretty poor shape. The knife I use to eat off of is a later US issue with the round point. I wonder if the Master Tinner could/would make the spoons? And yes, it is my understanding that not all of the silverware the Army bought was US marked.
The M-1872 "tarred" haversack was made by Tom Wilder (the Sergeant of the GMMCS) at Williston ND
James you really should consider joining us (the GAF) both as a member and at the Grand Muster next year. It'll be held the weekend of the 140th anniversary of the Battle of LBH. Most of the stages will be based on that action and the banquet will be held in the mess hall at Fort Hartsuff, a fully restored 1874 US Army Infantry post. You will see a lot of faces there that you'd be familiar with from NCOWS.
A hide hunter, huh? Did you read the account of my G-G grandfather's buffalo hunt? I posted it somewhere in the NCOWS forum. It's a reprint of an interview he did with the now defunct Blaine County Beacon or the Brewster News I forget which.
Wow, you guys have some very nice gear!
Wow...I really look forward to the Muster next year! Hopefully, I'll be a bit more edumacat'd about period correct....for now, I'm just planning on a civilian (teamster/scout) persona.
Pitspitr: D#mn, I almost regret the information on the 72 boots - now I am going to be contributing to Bob's retirement fund once again. This stuff never ends.
With a quick look at your stuff I wondered if the GMM&C guy's were in your past. Those seemed to be the golden years, not so much anymore. They, the Mudsills and Critter Company but a memory. I will have to go back and look for your post regarding hide hunting. Below is my effort as a commercial hunter of the southern plains 72-74. That was actually a wet hide we were working on.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/tin4.jpg)
I hope the 72 can is still available, another piece hard to find yet despised in the day. I wonder how long it was forced upon the troops and am willing to think that by 77 no one was trying to drink coffee from the lid. Still, it is a great piece of history to show people. Below is perhaps a better shot of the can for your consideration as handled by my good pard Greg (got to love his 72 coat with the pleats sewn down). It is not cheap but in my opinion worth it, great quality.
(http://i182.photobucket.com/albums/x80/Jhunt67/RivRsn-27_zpshycegaoo.jpg)
Regards, Jim