Howdy,
I've been doing some reading about the "Originals" category in NCOWS. My understanding is that three members have to sign up for it to be a category at an NCOWS event. My question is: who judges them?
For example, let's say, for the sake of discussion, Lars enters with the personna of a Swedish immigrant, Dr. Bob enters as a doctor, and Delmonico enters as a cosie. Each has a notebook with them with supporting evidence for the accuracy of their personnas.
Who at the match would have the specific background necessary to judge each of these members? Does Lars have the info necessary to validate the Del's credentials? Nope, his niche is Swedish immigrants. Can Del check on Dr. Bob? Nope, his knowledge base is in cooks. How about someone not in the Original Class? Would River City John be able to take the reference materials, check sources and validate them when he has no intensive knowledge of any of the three?
So who would be qualified to judge them?
Curious,
AnnieLee
That ought to set some folks to scratchin' their....heads.
;D :o ::) :P ;D
I love when you do that, Annie.
Annie, I'm interested in the responses to that question also.
Working on one for the next Muster, when I get the prelims, going to post a similar question in the Barracks.
Annie Lee,
The Originals class was a side match at this past summer's National shoot. What I found was the participants had put much research into their persona and what was appropriate for them as far as accutrements, clothing, and even personal actions. This is not a biginners bunch of people, they have been around researching for a good number of years. Not that a new member couldn't be at this height from the get go.
Many times you could find them helping each other research different items and documenting them. Most everyone that was in this group has done some major research and studying of this time frame.
I think some of them brought their resource books along to help others out.
Not everyone will take NCOWS to the Originals height. That is why NCOWS is unique, it has a nitch for just about everyone.
I might add also that this is not yet an approved category for NCOWS. It will discussed at the upcoming Congress meeting.
Kayleen
PS. To answer your question about who can judge these folks, they themselves do it with the documentation they presented to their peers. Chantilly and U.S. Scout did a fine job at GAF.(and helpers)
'Each has a notebook with them with supporting evidence for the accuracy of their personnas.'
Somehow - I'd think that your quoted statement is self-explanatory - 'supporting evidence' and 'accuracy' being the key words, here.
In NCOWS - the individual does the research - 'not' NCOWS itself - and 'that's' why documentation is important to the development of an Impression or the use of equipment.
So - rather than a couple of guys dragging in a chest of reference material and a laptop - a couple of guys who could read the supplied-by-the-individual documentation and any supporting photographic evidence can suffice - wouldn't you say?
Vaya,
Scouts Out!
Howdy AnnieLee and Derby,
The Originals "class" was founded by O T Buchanan, OCB, French Jack and I think Black River Smith. They set the requirements to qualify.
There are two requirements:
1) Develop a persona with a life story that leads to the date being portrayed. Mine was born in 1814 so that I can portray 1875 in 2005.
2) Document your outfit. Find pictures or clear written descriptions of the items of clothing that you will wear for the match and the firearms and accessories, ie; holster, belt &c.
The people who judge the documentation are those who have already met the requirements at a previous match. In the KVC that would be Trap, Books and me who qualified at the NCOWS Nationals for the "Originals" side match. So, to judge, you must have already met the requirements.
My persona was about a page and a half. I is a short "life history" that explains why I dress and am armed in the outfit that I wear for the match.
My documentation listed each item of clothing and refereced photographs showing the item that were dated to 1875 or earlier. I tried to keep them between 1870 and 1875 as what I had in 1870 I could still be wearing. I chose 1875 as the starting date for my persona since my firearms are an 1873 Winchester [repro.] and a Colt SAA [repro.] and the SAA wasn't available to civilians until 1875.
That's all there is to it. It is not complicated or very diffucult to anyone who is interested in the history of the period.
Hope that this answers your question!
There is an article coming out (I believe in the November/December issue) that deals with the Originals, and it also explains the judging. That article also goes into detail on just how the first attempt at judging went, and the results (quite satisfactory) that were achieved accordingly. Basically, Kayleen and Dr. Bob have explained the process well, so we will keep rolling with it (and try to tweak it with some good advice received from Dr. Bob) and see how it goes.....
St. George, Kayleen,
That is exactly the way the originals class is set up, the member that wants to shoot that particular class supplies his own documentation, NOT the other members of the posse. Annie Lee is right in that no body is qualified on their own to judge this category, that is why it is up to each individual that wants to shoot this category to do their own research and provide the documentation before-hand to the match director soley as a guideline as to how many there will be in the originals posse for that particular match.
Each member of the posse is assumed to be HONEST and FORTH-RIGHT, and is taken at their word that the research is accurate. You are only cheating your self if the documentation you present is bogus, no body else.
The only thing that is scrutinized is, if the documetation is complete and that it matches the impression of the posse member presenting it. In other words you wouldn't want to present documentation for a working cowboy and come dressed as a river boat captain. That is the only thing that is judged by the other participants of the posse, the completeness of the documentation as it pertains to your impression, not the accuracy of the research.
OCB
Thanks for the insight, folks.
So, once a person is "qualified" via their personal documentation, the winner for the category is based on shooting ability?
AnnieLee
To become an "original" your documentation is checked by ,I believe, 3 who are already originals. No one is an expert on all cultures or occupations , but the examination is to see if the persona is realistic to the stated time (year) and that all items would have been available to the persona in question. Once you have been accepted as an Original , you don't have to be judged each time. Also if you didn't want to Participate as an original you wouldn't have to, For example you wanted to try something out of your time period. Once you are an Original, you understand the process, and may act as a judge for others. jt
One of the benifits of shooting the originals class that hasn't been brought up here as yet, is, French Jack, OT Buchannan and I have discussed the possibility of archiving the research marterial collected from the originals class for future reference. Once we get enough material that will make it benificial we are hoping to have a data base that we can share with current NCOWS members that would like to shoot the originals class but for some reason don't have the means or resources available to do their own research. This is just in the thinking stages right now.
We will be able to supply that research/reference material or at least point them in the direction as to where they can find it. If what they need is in the material collected, and we have it in hand at that point it is requested, it would be a simple matter of copying it and forwarding to the requestor. That is why it is extremly important that the research be accurate and documented. We had a pretty good variety of impressions at the first two matches thus far, hopefully that variety will grow. This is what makes this class so much fun....
OCB
Derby,
To answer your question, I will solicite one of The Originals to do the Judging....
Aw jeeez RCJ,
Now ya gone an blabed my condition all over the 'net! One of me will get ya for sure. ::) ;D ::) ;D ::) Jest hope it's not Bad Bob!
Major Matt;
will need to be 3 to judge documentation. Judges should be given at least a week before the event to look over the material. jt
Quote from: AnnieLee on November 07, 2005, 12:06:46 PM
Thanks for the insight, folks.
So, once a person is "qualified" via their personal documentation, the winner for the category is based on shooting ability?
AnnieLee
Isn't shooting a part of it, too? It seems I remember some strict criteria for shooting that required an alteration of the stages to adapt for the Originals shooters? Or was that "Working Class"?
Thanks again,
AnnieLee
I don't have much to add to the above, a good explanation for your question. When you are into it as much as the folks are who go to all the trouble to be an "original" you're concerned that you "do it right". In other words, it is pretty much peer review and you want to be excepted by your peers. When I attended that Nationals this summer it was for the primary purpose of being "juried" by my peers, to be excepted by them. We gathered Fri afternoon and I submitted the historical basis for my persona (I presented it in a narative form) and documentation for my clothing, weapons, and accoutrements. I was pretty nervous when OT first picked it up and looked at it, then it went to OCB - nervousnes continued, then French Jack - not much better there, I wanted to do this right because I knew they did it right. I wanted to be as good as they were. These guy's do the 18th century stuff where no one has any reservation about telling you to come back on another day, and I valued their experience. On the next day all of us judged each other. I was looking at others who had put as much effort into it as I, and when talking with them began to realize that there were those who were more knowledgable about their personal than I was about mine. Never the less, I am now an original.
So now that I am an original is it a stopping point, not at all. I want to improve upon what I have done. I have since found several gaff's in my material and will be correcting those err's. Further I am expanding my persona of a hunter/scout in the years 1872 - 1876 to an entire adult life, from 1867 (my entry into the military) to 1905 (indeed beyond NCOWS but I have made my persona exactly 100 years older than I am, born in 1849 - so it will continue to grow from a military trooper to a small stockman on the Montana/Wyoming border as I age). You can see there is a fair amount of work as clothing, weapons, accoutrements, and life in general changes. Not for everyone, but it is great fun for someone who enjoys history.
I am greatful OT came up with this concept, I am greatful that there were those in NCOWS with the skill and knowledge to get this started. One more point, I don't think any of us original types have any attitude towards those who don't want to do this. I appreciate the fact that almost everyone in NCOWS enjoys history and makes a real attempt to dress right. Most notable at the National's this summer, I thought everyone looked great!
Annie
You get 50 pts for having documentation in order
1-10 pts For scores fron other participants
40 pts from shooting. !st-40
2nd 35
3rd 30 and so on. jt
Annie Lee,
to answer your question regarding scoring: 1. Each entrant is assigned a base score of 50 for having their documentation and impression complete. 2. Each entrant is scored by the other entrants and given a score of 1-10 on their impression. This will be averaged from scores given by other entrants. No one scores themself. 3. The deciding factor is the shooting score. Everyone has a base score within a few points of each other to this point. Shooting scores decide. 1st is good for 40 points, 2nd is good for 35 points, 3rd good for 30 points. All places after that are assigned 15 points. High score overall wins.
At the Eastern Regional, we were in a dead heat, then River City John's shooting score put him over the top.
Hopes this answers your question.
Trap,
ARe you volunteering?
Howdy,
I'd like a bit of clarification on the Originals. Is the "certification" for a particular persona or the person?
If O.T. creates a character of an ex-soldier traveling west that is certified, then creates an outlaw cowpuncher persona, does the second creation get an automatic pass as O.T. has shown he knows how to research and document?
Gracias,
I would think that any thing changed from underwear to hat would also have to be documented or there is no point in the class.
I've always liked the idea that instead of having to carry large amounts of documentation you just say yer proper. If someone doubts it is correct they challage you. Both parties have 30 days to prove that they are right, the loser then gets 30 lashes, it will end silly bickering and cause folks to do more research.
But I'm sure this idea will offend many.
Delmonico, I don't think tons of documentation are necessary. For my persona of a 1872 - 1875 hunter, I put everything into a 5 x 9 inch book fashioned after a dime novel with apporpriate cover of "The Adventures of James Hunt, Soldeir, Buffalo Hunter, and Heroic Scout of the Plains" etc., if fits easily in the haversack I carry my ammo in. It is less than a 1/2 inch thick and as I expand my persona I don't think it will ever get greater than 1 inch thick. Whole thing is a word .doc and I add or take away as needed. I have inserted alot of digital photos. Kind of fun to do. I got the idea from OT who has placed his persona and documentation in the form of a period catalog which he carries in his saddle bags. No trouble at all. Someone questions anything, simply pull out your stuff and say consider this.
Also, it is for the persona. My persona describes a buffalo hunter of the 1872 - 1874 period, and a hunter/scout in the year 1876. My clothing, weapons, and accoutrements changed a little in those few short years, but I have documented myself for those years. So I may show up as a buffalo hunter - see picture in inset modeled after Billy Dixon photo - or as a Sout in the year 1876. Documentation is there for both. In the future I may wish to show up as a Wyoming farmer/small stockman of the 1890's but will have to document that before I do. By the way I shoot CMSA and want to work my persona into the late 1890's. I'm probably the only period correct guy at a CMSA shoot in the country! Except for the headstall on the horse, and the holsters (use pretty thick leather to retain the gun), I think my stuff is correct but need to document it. Regards, Jim
I think I have a fairly good grasp of how the "impression" part works, and now would like to explore more of the shooting aspect, which is worth up to 40 points. Do the "Originals" shoot the same stages as the other participants of the match or do they shoot specially tailored stages?
Are they also required to shoot firearms that match their impressions, in the calibers used in that time?
Thanks,
AnnieLee
OK, this seems to be the place for a couple of questions I've been wondering about since I joined in February.
Persona's birthdate. If I (Sheila) am now 53, and she (Stina) is 53 in 1894 (to accord with my weapons), then Stina was born in....um....just a minute....1841. So she could have gone to university (Uppsala admitted women starting in 1870) at the age of 30 (since she couldn't go earlier). But....10 years from now, I'll be 63, and she's maybe still stuck in 1894.....but now born in 1831? Or what?
Weapons. Stina grew up far enough out in the Swedish countryside that rifles and shotguns would have been around, but I can't really come up with a good justification for her to have taken up revolvers. Not something your average middle-class lady would have done. Protection while living in a rough-and-ready mining camp?
And is this sort of justification necessary for an 'ordinary citizen', or does it only apply if I'm entering an 'Originals' shoot?
Stina
Annie Lee, to answer your questions, the armament should match your persona. As far as calibers go, something close to what was originally intended for that firearm is preferred. However, remember that no one is going to MAKE you use correct calibers and propellants...the entire concept of the Originals is something that you do for YOURSELF...it is a PERSONAL endeavor.
In other words, the revolver that best fits my persona is a .44 calibre 1860 Colt Army Conversion. I shoot blackpowder because I WANT to, and I have original style boxes and labels for the same reasons. I don't HAVE to go this far, but I ENJOY doing it. In other words, Originals are self-motivated, so you will find as a general rule participants try for as close to the original caliber as possible. I use the term 'within reason', because when I shoot my Spencer, it is in .56-50, but is utilizes the centerfire conversion, whereas the originals were rimfire (there WERE some centerfire versions at the time, but they are a rarity).
If you shoot a Henry, you have to remember that the originals were in .44 Rimfire. So, I don't see it as an issue with a participant shooting one in .44-40 or .45 Colt. See?
Other than that, arming yourself is the same as Working Cowboy....one revolver, and one lever-action rifle. The main difference when shooting a stage, is that Originals don't reload (or it is kept at a minimum). Working Cowboys, on the other hand, reload to maintain the same round count as participants in other classes, but Originals don't reload. Other than that, they shoot the same stages. The stage itself is not altered in any way, just how the Originals participants shoot it.
Stina, to answer your question, if you wish to be an Original, you can do so even if you didn't want to be part of the actual shooting. If you DID wish to shoot, then it is a simple matter of weaving that revolver into your persona. Simply come up with an interesting story that fits....
Stina: Understand your comment about aging. I'm 56, my persona born in 1849 (I was born in1949) would have been in his mid 20's during the time of my portrayal as a buffalo hunter scout. Does it work? Does for me, at least no one has called me out on it yet. At 56 I have still to get fat, and still have most of my hair although less than I did 30 years ago. So if I pull my hat down on my head and don't look to many folks directly in the eye I feel I can get away with it. For how long? I don't know. Maybe I'll have to adjust my persona's birthdate if I want to remain in the mid-1870's 10 years from now. Maybe I'll just move myself to the 1890's. Who knows, but I wouldn't worry about it. If you can pull off a reasonable appearance, I wouldn't worry about wrinkles around the eye's. Remember, those folks led hard lives, with little concept or opportunity for medical care or good nutrition (that can be argued as they ate less calories than we did). They aged quickly, just compare yourself to your parents. I can do things now that most folks in those day's couldn't do in their 30's. Our appearance is much younger than someone of similar age would have been in the Victorian era. Besides, have you ever gone to a civil war reenactment? The most accurate portrayal is usually done by the few young females who dress as male soldiers, alot of old fat privates in that crowd. Hope this helps. Jim
Annie,
I believe whether the course of fire is altered or not is up the to the MD. For example for the Originals Class at the 2006 Muster, I will require the Originals to have either 2 Cap & Ball Pistols or a spare cylinder. They will also be required to have a Muzzle Loading, Black Powder Musket. (Yes, Breech loading black powder Sharps are OK too). The Originals may or may not have to engage all the pistol rounds, I don't know yet. But they will only have engage up to 3 rifle targets a stage. If the stage calls for 10 rifle, I will not make somebody load and fire their Muzzle loading rifle 10 times on the stage. It would slow the posse down too much.
I also know that the Henry and the Spencer made their appearences during the Civil War. However, Shooting is 40% of The Originals score. I want to keep that part of the playing field level. So, it would not be fair to have one competitor with a Muzzle Loader, One with a Spencer and one with a Henry.
Since ithe match is a Civil War theme, I will also insist that The Originals keep their persona in the 1861-1865 timeframe.
Del,
QuoteI would think that any thing changed from underwear to hat would also have to be documented or there is no point in the class.
I'm with you on this one!! If you want to check underwear, I'll be the first one in line, then we can become
real close friends. ;)
Seriously, you can provide as much documentation as you want, from one page to a catolog if that floats your boat. And, if you don't like the way the class is structured, you don't have to shoot it. As far as having a point?, why not the point being because we want to, and it happens to be a lot of fun. I personally find reading another posse member's research very interesting. It's no different then shooting any other class in NCOWS, you do it because you want to.
As far as challenging someone, why? If you have the research in front of you, you don't have to challenge anybody. Again, as I said in an earlier reply, it is strictly up to you to provide your own documentation, you only cheat your self if it is not complete.
Some of us have built our impression on an extensive timeline, over a period of years. For me personally I find this the most enjoyable way to do it if it reads like a book. My timeline covers 37 years, from 1848 to 1885 and stops there. All my frearms, leather, accoutrements and clothing are appropriate. You try to be as correct as possible.
As far as guns and ammunition is concerned I believe the only rim fire ammo manufactured today is the .22 and some south american .32 rim fire, if you can find it, so you use common sense. I do try to use the calibers of the era if possible such as .44 colt, .45 LC and 44/40. I'm in the process of converting a .45 LC Uberti Henry to .44 colt because it is closer to the original caliber, other then not being a rim fire.....I do it because I just like to and for no other reason then it fits the persona I am trying to portray.
Clothing, leather, accoutrements, Horse tack and personal gear are all easily documented and it makes it very easy to dress yourself correctly, if you want to.
Plus,
THE COLTS BEAT NEW ENGLAND LAST NIGHT 40 TO 20 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
OCB
Major Matt,
You may want to ask French Jack and OT Buchannan, but when we came up with the idea for the originals it was to be shot with one pistol and one rifle only........somewhat like the working cowboy class with very few reloads when possible, so you may want to reconsider the class.
Bill
My "Originals" persona is 50 years old in 1877, submitted in 2005. Next year, 2006, he will be 51 and the year will be 1878. He is employed by the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe RR. He is employed as a scout/hunter/security for the RR's survey crews. However in 1878 (2006) he will be involved in the war between the Denver Rio Grande RR and the A.T. & SF RR. From there the nature of his employment with the RR will evolve. I intend to age my character and stick with him for many years. By 1885 (2013) he may buy one of those new slide action Colt rifles.
I am working on another "Originals" persona that is a war correspondent in the 1890s. This is the character that I was portraying at the GAF Muster. The character is based on two well know correspondents of the time: Winston Churchill and Richard Harding Davis.
For me this is great fun.
Books
Matt,
When Fench Jack, OT Buchannan and I came up with the idea for the originals concept it was designed to be set up with any impression relative to the 19th century, including the civil war. Part of that concept was fewer guns used to be more realistic as to how the shooting aspect of the 19th century was. There are other categories in NCOWS where more guns, more ammo more shooting is used, but not in the originals category. The basis for the originals was one pistol, one rifle as long as they were used by the appropriate persona.
If you want to move away from that idea you may want to call it something else. One of the items on the congress agenda this month is to make the originals a NCOWS category with those concepts in mind. The GAF shoot is yours to do as you please and I look forward to shooting it next year. The originals concept was the idea of three individuals who wanted a shooting category more realistic as to what is in NCOWS at the present time, we'd sure like to keep it pure.....
OCB
Books,
I watched an Our Gang movie (The Sun Down Limited - 1924) the other day. The train engine had "AT & SF RR" on it. I couldn't figger out what the AT stood for. I figgered that the SF was San Fran. Thanks fer tellin' me what it meant. :D
Slim
Quote from: O.T. Buchannan on November 07, 2005, 11:02:01 PM
...the entire concept of the Originals is something that you do for YOURSELF...it is a PERSONAL endeavor.
I've nothing against it, and think it could be a lot of fun, as a PERSONAL endeavor.
But I do not understand the reasoning behind making it an NCOWS category. So far, it's ten people out of 2500 or more. For competition, the impression part of it is self judged and admittedly "up to the individual" for as far as he wants to go with it. For the shooting part, the Originals don't shoot as many rounds as the other participants, which would require the match organizers to incorporate a different scoring schema within the same match.
Even within the category, as a shooting competition it would be fraught with issues. Is it fair and reasonable for a person with a muzzle loader to compete against a '66? Yet the firearms and calibers do not have to match the impression of a person, so are they actually "Originals" or "kinda, but let's be reasonable and shoot .38 replicas anyway, originals?"
After reading this thread, and thank you everyone for your input on it, I just can't see voting for it as a category/class. I do hope that the individuals involved will continue to pursue their "personal endeavors."
Sincerely,
AnnieLee
Hey Major Matt, I bet the Confederates who came up against the Henry and the Spencer back in the REAL Civil War thought it was unfair too!!!!! ;D Danged secesh rebels, they all need to be taught a lesson :D
Anyway, THANK YOU for including the Originals class at your shoot, we sincerely appreciate your support. If you don't mind, may I PM you concerning how it is to be conducted? I MIGHT have some ideas that we could go over between us...if that's ok.
Delmonica, why the special class you ask? In addition to some of us finding this to be fun, the idea is ALSO to bring together like-minded people, and to share ideas. When I attended the National Shoot, THIS was the draw for me. NCOWS is comprised of a lot of different people, each taking their level of authenticity to the level that they see fit. For some, the idea of the Originals is just not the way to go, and that is fine...it presents no problem. For example, I don't wish to shoot smokeless shootist, but I have NO intention of censuring those who DO wish to shoot that class. On the other hand, there are some of us who wish to take our level of authenticity a little higher, and the idea of the Originals simply brings those of us who wish to do this together. We get to share ideas and compare notes and compare research.
At the National Shoot, SHARING information with each other was one of the best aspects of this class. Looking over each other's research, and seeing how other folks did things was NEAT. Several of us brought books along, and we could pull them out and say, "Hey look at this, or hey look at that." To us, research is not a hardship...research is one of the GOALS, and one of the DRAWS for us. We respect that not everyone wants to do this, and to some people, research is a hardship. To the Originals, however, we are so fascinated by this aspect that we wish to come together with like-minded people. I will also say this: I have never, and WILL never go up to an individual and criticize them for their outfit. I can stand next to a competitor on the line who is wearing pointed toe boots and a fast-draw rig, and that competitor will never receive any negativity from me. However, if that same competitor wanted information about a particular item, or authenticity in general, I would give it freely. I enjoy research, and I also enjoy SHARING that research. I do NOT believe in pushing it on anyone who doesn't wants it, but I do enjoy not only sharing it, but learning from others who have the same passion. This is why we are proposing the Originals concept, to simply bring together a group of individuals who are of the same mind......
Major Matt, I want you to know that I support your "originals class" as you are trying to do it. I also understand how OCB and O. T. Buchannan feel as to only having 1 revover and a rifle in their class. However in the Civil War It would be very period for calvaryand certain others to have more than one revolver. Just my thoughts.
WHEW~~~ :o
I just got done reading all of the posts from first to last.. and my head is dizzy from going back and forth, from one person to the next and back again.
LOTS of information.
Good stuff here.
Thanks from a "know nothing" beginner. I THINK I soaked up some of it.. ???
Annie, a different scoring system? Doesn't have to be, consider this: If you have stages that average 24 rounds per stage, and all competitors shoot those stages, nothing has to be changed, even if someone comes along and misses half of their targets, right? ;D Well, if the Originals come along and shoot those same stages with less rounds, simply score all of the rounds THAT THEY DID NOT SHOOT, as misses. As long as this is done for each Original, the playing field stays level.
Now, as to the muzzleloader vs. the 66, the Originals is not, and was never about that. What Major Matt was saying is that he wishes to set up his shoot so that such does NOT occur, and the reason he wants to do that is because his shoot is Civil War based, whereas the Originals is more Old West based. However, many of us have personas in which the Civil War is part of our background, so we DO have something we can work with, and Major Matt is simply trying to work with us in that regard.
Now, there is another aspect of the Originals that hasn't yet been touched on. As Originals, we are more concerned with history than with shooting. Yes, we shoot, but it is lower priority for us. As an example, I have both a Henry and a 66, and I am proficient enough with my Henry that even though I shoot blackpowder, I have placed high, and beat a lot of smokeless shooters! I've also won a match or two (or three) shooting in BP categories. However, my favorite longarm of the era is the Spencer Carbine. The funny thing is, it is the firearm with which I am the least proficient, at least from a speed standpoint. Still, I used it at the 2005 National Shoot, even though it caused me, from a performance standpoint, to shoot one of my slowest matches ever (ok, so I was dead last... ;D). Still, I wasn't the only one shooting a Spencer, and boy was that fun, being in a class where others shot the same types of guns and propellants, and accepted the resulting limitations....
Delmonico, I share my information with ANYONE who I can pin down...they don't have to be NCOWS folks.. :P
Since there is no overall winner catagory, why does every catagory have to shoot the same number of rounds?
Working Cowboy class shooters are only compared to other Working Cowboy Class shooters. Ditto with all the other classes.
If the "Originals" Class has no reloads, why is that complicated? Their misses are added to their raw time and it is irrelevant that they shot more or less than any other class.
I only have 6 semester hours of Math. Am I missing something or are some people trying to make this more complicated than it is?
Books
Here is a SECOND to what Books just posted!!
Lars
I had always thought of the originals class as a bonus to NCOWS. Being in an organization of like minded folks that had a small group of really like minded folks. This summer I enjoyed interacting with all NCOWS members. There are no posses around where I live, and no one else really shares this passion I have for history in my area - big SASS country. So I shoot CMS - a group of about 20 and except for me look like SASS with dirty duds whereas I look like a late 19th century cowboy with dirty duds - and also enjoy working on my historical persona. That is what I do to satiate my desire to live in the old west. Having the originals class allows me to play the NCOWS game even though I can only attend one or two ground shoots a year. Maybe there are others in my situation who would be happy to be NCOWS members if they had an activity that did not require them to be near posse to enjoy their efforts.
James; BINGO again!!
Quote from: James Hunt on November 08, 2005, 02:18:02 PM
Having the originals class allows me to play the NCOWS game even though I can only attend one or two ground shoots a year. Maybe there are others in my situation who would be happy to be NCOWS members if they had an activity that did not require them to be near posse to enjoy their efforts.
James,
What I quoted from you pretty much describes our situation as regards NCOWS. Instead of CMS we have a local CAS club that shoots very non-SASS-like stages that we enjoy very much.
I will participate in the "Originals" class/side matches at any major NCOWS shoot I can attend, if it is at all similar to, or inclusive of, the persona/impression I am developing AND I have the guns. We will continue to develop our personas/impressions for our own enjoyment.
Lars
Annie;
you ask why make it a category?
10 Shot it at the last natl. Some of those went to the natl. BECAUSE it was going to be offered. When we are struggling to get people to come to the natl. shoot, and it is generating alot of interest, and is no more difficult to put on or score than any other class why NOT offer it as a class. by the way, 10 is more than were in many of the offered classes. Do we drop them because of lack of interest??
jt
Del;
I think it should be offered as a category at the NAtl. and optional at all other matches. At the disgression of the host club.
jt
Instead of having a side match or a class, why don't the Original's bring all of their reference materials (books, photographs, etc) to larger matches, set up a tent and hold a school on authentcity research, and let the rest of the membership use these materials to increase their knowledge. Not everyone getting into the NCOWS game has access to large old west reference materials, and many folks just don't have extra personal time these days. At many multiple day shoots after the shooting is over for the day and sometimes it's early, folks take off because their isn't that much extra to do after making their purchases with the vendors, but on sight reading materials could be as much fun as shopping with the vendors, and much less costly. So for those of you saying they like to share, belly up to the bar...
Hey Wymore, the idea of setting up in the fashion that you describe? I really like that idea, I think it is really good, and perhaps we ought to pursue that. THANK YOU.
Delmonico, I CANNOT rope!!! However, my persona is not that of a cowboy either.... ;D
WW;
That was pretty much what we did at the Nationals. All of the Old West Reference materiel of Anastaisa's Books (A vender at the Nationals) as well as my personal books were avaiable for any and all to look at and use. The porch of the book store was the scene of some pretty serious research. (and altoid julep drinking) Some took advantage, others beat feet back to the hotel.
This is a tricky operation though. I took my best references to the KVC 1880s Cowboy Town event. Wave after wave of thunderstorms dumped on our camp. Wave after wave of water flowed though my tent. I thought my books were up and safe. I was wrong.
I am always more than willing to help anybody do good research. Let me know what books you want me to track down for you. If you just want to look at a reference that I have, just ask. I can bring them to the NCOWS meeting, the Convention or any shoot that I attend.
Books
I keep hearing that clubs will have trouble with any class that does not shoot all the rounds at each stage. This is REDICULOUS!!!!!!!!! A class such as Working Cowboy is not competing with any of the other classes. Shooting fewer rounds per stage does not have ANY impact on the other classes at all! At the 2005 NCOWS Nationals the WC shooters had to reload their pistol on each stage "because the other classes fired 10 rounds" although the other classes require two pistols and the WC only requires one. I joined NCOWS because the WC required only 1 pistol and 1 rifle. Reloading on each stage is not fun for me and most of the pards that I run with. [I know Terry Lane lives to reload on the clock.] I will not shoot the WC main stages if I will have to reload my pistol on each stage. It is no harder to add up the score of WC shooters who only shot 5 pistol rounds per stage than to add the score of a shootist or duelist who shoots 10 [5 from each pistol] IT REALLY ISN'T!!!!!!!!!!
You don't have to write different stages. Just let the WC shooters shoot thier 5 pistol rounds as the other classes and just score the 5 shots. What is so difficult about that??? It does not take any additional effort to only score 5 pistol shots. It doesn't cost any more to score only 5 pistol shots. It shouldn't be any big deal!
I participated in the Originals class because I wanted to be authentic in my persona and it helped me to be certain that what I wear is right for my persona. I enjoyed the fellowship of the other pards that want the same experience. I have no wish to force this experience on anyone at all. If you want to try it, I will be quite happy to help. If you don't want to try it, enjoy what you do and it will be fine with me.
Just don't tell me that wanting to shoot a different number of round in WC or the Originals wil bring catastrophic results to the club hosting a match.
Now I will step down off of my soap box and take a deep breath. ;D
WW,
I have to agree with OT & Books. Great idea!! I think that we can also make referrence material available at the Convention, where there will be more time available for this type of activity. I will be happy to work wiht anyone who wants to learn more about clothing & equipment, whether or not they want to become part of the Origianls or not. Y'all come!
Dr. Bob: well stated. I felt the Lord speaking with your oratory! Or was it the devil? Oh well, it all made sense to me.
Dell: I want to expereince my persona, I don't want to live it. For those that do great, enjoy it and I'll give tribute to the accuracy of their portrayal. Me? all I want to do is write down my persona, document my duds, weapons, and accourtrments, and for the fun of it put it in a book that has the front cover appearance of a dime novel, apparently a few others do also and I'll be happy to share it with all if asked to. Let us have a good time doing it within the organization that has an emphasis on expereincing history, no harm can come to that org. as I see it.
Your comment "If ya can't rope youre not a cowboy", absolutely. I think that we should all try our best to develop and expereince the attributes and skills associated with our persona. you bring up an excellent point.
Unfortunatley we are all limited. How many NCOWS members can ride a horse, heck how many have the ability to own one and spend time with it. But that should not exclude us pursueing an interest in any aspect that required horsemanship. I portray a buffalo hunter, I couldn't hit a school bus with my sharps at 500 yds, but I could at 200 yds. I' m getting to experience some of what a hunter would have experieinced. I can ride, I can shoot off of a horse, but I can't rope off my horse. I'd feel a little guilty portraying a cowboy because of that but that's me, it should not limit others trying to expereince it. Point is few of us will do it absolutely correctly, as I have read your columns in the Shootist, as I have listened to your comments on various boards, I consider you to be as close to it as anybody, Apparently you live your persona, most of us can't. But all of us are trying to move in a direction of accuracy, my trip requires me to write it down, your's doesn't. Both approaches seem to fit into NCOWS.
Books, personally I would like to see you hit the circuit as a full time vendor with reference materials, some publishers might bring some outdated books backout in paperback at cheaper prices if they would sell, and I believe they would. I found E.C. "Teddy Blue" Abbotts "We pointed them north" in paper back on Amazon.com and found out lots of good information, including a mention of my hometown and area which would be great to add to a persona... ;D
Books, another point is that lots of people don't know what to ask for, so if you had books to show people what really is available "off the shelf", it would greatly help them in their own research.... ;D
Allrighty then...
I split this by routing some of the 'controversial' replies into a "RE: Judging Originals" topic on the other board and returning the main topic here. That was a lot of work, I probably didn't to the best job with it...but it's the only job your getting 8)
Thank you, Lone Gunman. I watched the process and know it was a lot of work on your part. I appreciated the effort.
My current line of work has me involved with "certifications." Among these, some organizations work toward achieving certain "levels." Folks will work long and hard to achieve their levels, then undergo a peer review or a formal audit to see if they have achieved their goals. On receiving their results, they hang banners from the ceiling "We have achieved LEVEL 3 of the blahblahblah!", have cake and punch, and give out awards to the workers. It's a good thing, but it is flawed, because the organizations forget that it is supposed to be a continuous process of improvement and review to maintain their levels. Four years later, the banner is still hanging on the ceiling, but personnel, processes, and even the mission of the group have changed. The audit is a "spot check" of a specific point in time, and does not mean it still applies years down the road.
How does this relate to the "Originals"? From what I have read here, as long as a person sticks to his "impression," he needs only the initial peer review. From then on, he is considered to be qualified as a participant and a judge, even though he may change his clothing and accoutrements. I'd like to see an ongoing peer review and requalification at every event where there is "Originals" participation. Since the participants document as a point of enjoyment and pride, such "recerts" should not be difficult for them.
I've also reconsidered my thoughts about having the "Originals" as a class at a match. I fully agree with Trap on this one: to make it a side match at the Nationals, and to make it optional for other shoots, based on what the organizers of that shoot want. If you add in Wymore's thought about having ongoing displays during the main part of the match, you'd create an even more beneficial outcome. This way, the Originals would get to shoot without having 50 seconds added to their time for every stage, would get to shoot with "people of like minds," and would be able to display/share their knowledge with the rest of the pards at their leisure during the match.
:D
Stina, about the revolver? Women were often left alone for long periods of time in those days. The matter of "personal defense" was as much, if not more, of an issue to them as it is to us today. A rifle is good for varmit hunting and for putting food on the table, but isn't worth much when it comes to close personal defense. While a concealable pocket pistol would be good for hiding in a muff while in town, at home she might want something with a bit more "punch". If she has a husband, brother or father, they could very well have taught her how to use it. If there is a man in her life who often has to leave for long periods of time, he'd want her to be able to defend herself, her home, and their children while he was away. If she is widowed, she may have her husband's revolver. As for weaving it into your personna, I'd recommend putting yourself into her shoes and thinking of what you would be doing in her place. I'd be willing to bet you could come up with a great tale of how she came to have the revolver and how she learned to use it!
Thanks again to all the folk's thoughts on this topic,
AnnieLee
AnnieLee, you've come up with some very good thoughts and some very good points, and I just wanted to let you know that I really appreciate it...
THANKS!
Annie;
Thanks for having an open mind , Hopefully others will too.
I will say that I would like to see the "originals" as a main stage category at the natl. and optional at local and regional shoots.
At the disgression of the hosting club.
jt
Requried recert with any change in persona? sounds good to me. required recert every several years? don't have a problem with that either. good ideas.
Yes, those are very good ideas, I also wouldn't have problem with the recerts. I also support Trap's idea of giving clubs the options of having the Originals as a class or not......
I think that it would be appropriate to mention something here. If the "Originals" is put in place as a category, all it means is that like all the other categories, it is on the list. This in no way forces anyone to shoot it nor does it force any club or posse to offer it if there is no interest and no entrants.
Just like all the other categories, it is self-limiting. If people want it, they have the option, if not, it remains in the wings.
Since it is proposed as an item on the Congress agenda, I am preparing a handout on it. If anyone wishes a copy they should PM me and give me their mailing address and I will send them one.
Believe me, it is not even close to being as difficult or involved as some responses have indicated.
BY-LAW 9: RULES and REGULATIONS
9-1. All NCOWS shooting classes, as established by By-Law, must be made available to all shooters at each National, Regional or Charter Posse Shoot. These classes shall be:
Seems like all clubs would be required to offer "originals" at every shoot if the by-law is ratified.
Take care.
Exactly--- if there is ANY person who wishes to shoot ANY category--- the posse must offer it. If NOT---- they are not required to do so. This applies to Originals as well as Seniors, Juniors, Ladies, Blackpowder Shootist, Pistoleer, et. al. There is also a proposal to expand the categories to have separate Men's and Women's in each, as well as subdivide the Juniors and Seniors by age. This alone would guarantee that each posse would be offering ------ Horrors!----- more than DOUBLE the number of categories.... This would probably lead to nuclear meltdown at each and every shoot.
Just imagine, double the hand shakes and congratulations and double the awards. Somehow zero plus zero still adds up to nothing. ??????????? Huhmmmmmm..:D
So folks,
I have to admit I'm still a bit fuzzy about this. If a new shooter shows up at our Blue River Regulators shoot this Sunday and wants to shoot "originals" class (and is the only entrant), what do we do? How do we score him other than shooting? I guess I'm not opposed to the concept, would just like to get the details worked out for the club, cause if it will be required, then it will be required. Take care.
Terry, perhaps you are aware there is also a proposal on the agenda to only offer a category if there are a minimum of three entries. Don't know where this will go on the matter. However, I am sending you a PM.
However, on the face of it, to reply to your question: At this time you don't have to do anything. If you wish to allow the entrant to do so, and have basis to believe that they have gone throulgh the "vetting" process, I guess they get to shoot against themselves. If they haven't been approved by at least 3 "Originals" , they still don't get to enter as such. If you by chance have the requisite number on hand, it is still your call. The scoring is not a giant item, I can e-mail you the scoresheets we used at the Nationals.
Howdy,
This raises another question then.. how does an NCOWS member in the hinterlands get certified?
How can Joss and his pretty darn high-grade posse become Originals if it takes 3 to judge one fit?
Adios,
Big Hext,
All that would be required is for anyone that wishes to be juried, submit their impression and documentation to any three of the present Originals. I am certain that if someone were to submit their information to O.T. Buchanan, Bill Proctor, Jerry Everett, Dr. Bob, River City John, Trap, Books, Jerry Barnes, Steve Henry, Jerry Davenport, James Hunt, or myself, that we would be able to get it to at least two of the others and get it accomplished. This could be done by PM, e-mail, or snail mail.
I believe that Marlan Ingram has covered it in an article in The Shootist.
So you send a book of documentation. How can one judge clothing from documentation?
Maybe I don't get the whole idea.. I thought it was about looking and acting as if one has stepped out of the past. That can only be experienced, in my opinion, in person. The mannerisms, speech and such are part and parcel with a correct historical impression.
Adios,
Hext
Acting is not a persona, it is an impersonation. Jimmy Stewart impersonated a western character but his clothing an accoutrement were not always correct. You will not catch me trying to talk or walk any different than I do in modern clothing except where weight differentials from guns come in to play. We all talk and act normal, we just research, document and record what we want to carry and use for the time period we want to live in.
It is appearances and actual attempts at portraying a person during a specific time period. It is not just throwing together a pair of 501 jeans and western style shirt and hat like I did for my very first CAS shoot in 1990. It is showing documented pictures or period writings that what you have represents the period your in. Ex. pocket knife I care is made in 'Pakistan' but it is a 'near' perfect copy of 1860 knife pictured on page 140 of the Peacemakers book. That is it, it is documented by RLWilson that it was available from 1860 to .... My other one is pictured on page 163 of same book, (not exact but close enough) so I can use it for 1870's persona.
It is not hard, but don't come with a case or schrade and call it an 1870's knife. Don't use a money belt or 3" wide stamped belt and John Wayne holster or mexican double loop for late 1860's or 1870's persona. Those are the way to think when putting thing together. Don't use a 1892 Win or copy of one for an 1870's or 1880's impression. They just don't fit the time line.
That is just one piece.
I believe that most everyone uses a similar thought pattern about how they want to look, some don't want to. If you do or would like too then you fit into the Originals. You do not need everything to be original manufacture to provide the appearance of authentic, We still live in a limited controlled world. I am sure some can afford the actual stuff but I can only appear to be authentic. So I document and only buy those thing that I can find to fit. For me the searching for and documenting is just as fun as the using. I am still looking for a travel inkwell that I can afford. I got the pen.
Just the way to look at it, it is not hard or excessive. Just a way to be proud of what you have and the effort you have made to be accurate about your appearance and shooting.
Oh one thing I do have an original Win'73 and '86, some original knives, original eating utensils, etc... but have to supplement on other items.
Hope this helps you and others
Black River Smith
This is a fascinating thread and I'm enjoying the discussion.
I came to CAS from a living history background (mostly colonial but some CW). We weren't "juried" for the most part, but you'd best not drag out something that was later than the period you were protraying, especially in front of the public.
When I started CAS, I knew that creating a persona was optional but given my background it was natural for me to want to create one, along with a history, suitable clothing and accoutrement. I started off with one concept (a generic civilian scout), but over time this has evolved into a whole different persona than I originally envisioned (an Army officer in command of scouts). Like my colonial self, I have more than one CAS persona, which allows me to explore, historically, other aspects of the time.
As I've refined my primary persona and developed my biography, I've focused my acquisitions on what I would have worn or carried in specific time periods (1867, 1872 and 1882) of my "life." I even do it for the earlier years, though they fall outside the scope of CAS, because what my persona did or experienced prior to the selected time periods would have influenced or impacted on his later decisions.
Doing the research, for me, has been the fun part, but then I was trained as a historian and work in a related field. However, I'm still not clear on what is required to "document" my persona for the Originals.
Are we simply talking a reference in a contemporary document, or of a photograph showing a particular item being used or worn? Or, is the justification more demanding, requiring at least two independent sources. For example: Army officers had the option of carrying an issue sidearm, or one of their own purchase. If I opt to carry a non-issue sidearm, must I find an example (or two) of an Army officer carrying that particular pistol in the time period (and place) I portray, or is it sufficient to say that because this pistol was available and officers could choose what they wanted, my character can carry it.
Secondly, can I reference a secondary source? Getting access to primary documents can be difficult, so is it permissable to take the word of a professional historian that certain things were used by a specific group of people (I would think not). From my experience, most historians know very little about firearms or historical artifacts unless that is what they specialize in.
Thanks to all for their input into this discussion. It has been most informative and enlightening.
Howdy US Scout,
For your impression as an Army officer, the appropriate regualtion describing the required uniform would be needed. If you depart from the reg., you would need documentation that it was done, either a picture or written documentation.
For firearms, you can use any rifle and pistol that would have been available in the year that you portray.
I placed Dr. Bob in 1875 to allow him to have a Colt SAA and an 1873 Winchester. I documented band collar shirts and 4 pocket vests without lapels with a picture of Bill Hickock [died 1876] wearing both. I also used a photo of a reunion of veterans of the battle of San Jacento[sp?] in 1871 where there were at least 4 men with band collar shirts, vests w/o lapels and brogands which were also part of my impression. Wore a 3 piece sack suit and a bowler which can be found in numerous pictures and in clothing history books. Had my Dr.'s bag to carry my ammo documented in a ACW medical equipment book.
I hope that this answere your question.
Like US Scout I am rather enjoying this discussion because I find it so informative in the breath of information.
For a while I was thinking that the "Originals" was just clothes and guns. Clearly, as some folks do it, it can include just about any item, including pocket knives -- I had not given that any consideration. The distinction between just looking like an "original" and actually behaving and speaking like one was also a pleasant surprise. Fortunately, for us, we can add the behavior and language(s). That could be fun!! It is also a real effort for those of us not professional actors.
Adding behavior and language is fun too. Some years ago I visited a "living history" site where the persons on display answered any and all questions as the person they were depicting would/could have. That was a big plus. I did the same a few times at the GAF Muster and got a slightly surprised response each time from the person asking the question.
One could even start thinking about 2-dimensional Originals (they look like it externally), 3-dimensional Originals ("all" the way to the skin), and, yea!!, 4-dimensional Originals (add behavior and language). Maybe the 4-dimensional Originals would qualify for Actor's Guild coverage.
Lars
Although I have not yet put it all down on paper; I try to keep everything [visible] in my tent up to the same "Originals" standard.
The Bed and large table are out of Marcy's 1859 Prairie Traveler and the small table is from Galton's 1856 The Art of Travel etc. etc.
Books
Quote from: Lars on November 10, 2005, 11:43:14 AM
Adding behavior and language is fun too. Some years ago I visited a "living history" site where the persons on display answered any and all questions as the person they were depicting would/could have. That was a big plus. I did the same a few times at the GAF Muster and got a slightly surprised response each time from the person asking the question.
Lars
Lars,
I've done a lot of living history programs over the last 20 years or so. In some programs I've done, I stayed in character at all times, even when the "visitor" asked a question using 20th century terminology. If they mentioned driving in a car, I "heard" it as a wagon or carriage. If they pointed out the airliner overhead, I couldn't see or hear it, so "wondered aloud" if perhaps they'd been in the sun a bit too long. At another program I did, I enlisted site visitors into the militia. I would ask their occupation and hear things like "computer programer" - which I would simply put down as "clerk." Most of them got a kick out of this (and sometimes tried to "catch" me out), though there were a few who didn't quite understand what they were experiencing.
For an adult program I did a few years ago, I addressed everyone as if they were new settlers to the area and they thoroughly enjoyed it. For school programs, I usually start off in character, but then shift to third person since it easier to explain things in terms they understand.
I will say that staying in character can be hard work. I'm usually exhausted after a few hours of it. I expect the public enjoys it though and that makes it worthwhile.
I haven't tried this in my "old west" persona but expect I could do it if pressed.
Quote from: Books OToole on November 10, 2005, 12:12:13 PM
I try to keep everything [visible] in my tent up to the same "Originals" standard.
The Bed and large table are out of Marcy's 1859 Prairie Traveler and the small table is from Galton's 1856 The Art of Travel etc. etc.
Books
Books,
Sounds like you and a few others have created an "Extended" Originals class!! I will have to look at your stuff more carefully next time. Dr. Bob's too.
Lars
Hey Books!
As an aside, I just received a copy of the "History of the Second Colorados" by Mrs. Williams, which I'd been looking for the last 4-5 years. Seems there is a limited reprint edition. Skimmed through it last night. Lots of neat stuff to go into building the background on my persona. There is some stuff in there about the 11th Kansas (did I get that right?).
The biggest difference in between my camp and Dr. Bob's is that most of what he has is original/antique.
[That and sheer volume. ;D]
I have very bad luck with originals items in the field, therefore nearly all of my stuff are reproductions.
Like US Scout, Dr. Bob and I have been doing Living History Programs for many years. And documenting clothing, guns, equipment, furniture, etc. is a lot easier in the post Civil War era. Thank you, Matthew Brady, Soloman Butcher, T. H. O'Sullivan, John K. Hillers, William H. Jackson and many other early photographers.
That said is best not to get to dependent on pictures. First hand journals are just as good if not better. It just takes more time.
Books
Howdy,
Interesting discussion and I appreciate the insight. I have done significant in-depth research in the past, albeit not in Western History. I do find the academic nature a bit frustrating. There must always be a place for common sense. Delmonico likes to use the example of pregnant women.
My question still remains about exporting the Originals concept..
Adios,
Hext,
Maybe what is missing in a lot of the conversation is: that your documentation of items and clothing and desired appearance also should or does have photo's of you in your outfits and photos of your items and where you found the original. Most people, I believe do or could find a copy of submitters listed books to verify the statements and claims. Not hard to acknowledge someone that has put the effort into it. If a question did arise the communication lines are wide open.
If you look at most of the photos for people posting, you or I probably would not have a problem with general outfits/clothing. It is just the justification for making things fit in a time frame. All this truly is easy to do just off of paper. Really it is not as difficult, to make this work, as some people are trying to make it appear.
We share information, we talk at the shoots, we go shoot at the range, we come back and go to the banquet just like all the other shooters.
Black River Smith
At first when this whole idea came up, I honestly shook my head and wondered why. I honestly thought what was being attempted in a effort to keep from turning NCOWS from the so called SASS lite, to what might be termed Living History lite.
I will say this, you most likely have a diamond here, but a very rough one yet. What would be wrong with continuing as is for a couple years, polish the diamond, knock off the rough edges, test drive the dang thing for a while. There is nothing to stop this from happening. Show the rest of the clubs what it has to offer by example, not by forcing it on them. Few like having something forced on them they don't want, convicing them that they need it is good salesmanship.
I was a bit surley earlier in the week and I'm sorry for it, there were reasons more than my friends here for that. I consider you folks some of my best friends even if we don't agree all the time, I wouldn't waste my time pokin' a bit of fun at ya hopin' to make you think, if I didn't like you. I ignore folks I don't like for the most part.
I will say though, once one documents everything don't think it's over, if you have never thought you had the answer and then months or years later found something else that meets the criteria for documention that conterdicts what you have already documented, then you haven't tried hard enough. This is the reason for my little jokes about documenting the documention. I'm very serious one this, one needs to study the very context of the documentaion. It's that or you'll think that the stork brought the babies.
Wait a minute! Wait a minute! You mean to tell me the Stork DIDN'T bring the babies??????..:)
Del, you are right, we can do our research and come to certain conclusions, but we should still CONTINUE to research and study the same things. I've done research on a particular thing, and two or three years down the road learned something knew which changed my thinking....
THIS is one of the most fascinating aspects of studying history, at least to me. There is always more information just around the corner......
Hej you guys!! You can document that storks bring babies!!!!!!!!! Lotsa good "pictures" to support it too!!
However, as you point out, further research can/will disprove that, or at least document alternatives to the stork.
This "documenting" the "documentation" has an interesting history in some of the areas of interest to me. History "documentation", especially the written and pictoral, was often (nearly always?) created to support a particular point of view, typically that of the "winners" or the "believers". Then "new waves" of documentation provide peeks into the perspective or message on which the earlier documention was based. "Truth" was and is a very conditional thing in many matters. Don't know how that plays in the world of clothes, other than that most old photos were staged, or taken for special occasions, or in a studio with props, avoided certain topics, etc., etc.
Lars
To those who don't understand the joke, I did a fun little thing on research one tim on TFS, it got lost in the meltdown. Has any one really seen much mention on preagnant women in the West?
They had babies of course but pictures of preagnant women and even meantion of it almost do not exist. Well there are plenty of copyrighted books from the period, children's books of course that say the stork brought them. ;)
I found a woman on the Solomon Butcher collection that was preagnant but it was hidden, it only showed on the enhanced images cause she was hiding it. ::)
For fun try this:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/award98/nbhihtml/pshome.html
Type preagnant into the search. When you get the pictures fully enhanced there are about 50 of them, somewhat hidden, but there.
I also have in my books a copy of an 1890's marriage manual that explains it and one can always sneak a peek at Grey's Anatomy. ;)
In reality once mass prodution and mass, cheap transportation (Rail Roads) came into being it gets very complex.
If you don't have enough to ponder, type crossbow into the same search. Look on the roof of the soddy. Don't ask me why it's there, but it is. ;D
If research don't drive you batty wondering why, you ain't trying hard enough. ;D
Lars: I suspected the stork story wasn't true, we don't have them in Newbrassky. ;D
Yea Del,
All those sandhill cranes are really lacking in that regard, just like the European cranes. You need the kinda storks that build nests on top of cottages, making it easier for them to deliver babies. Obviously, all those folks in Nebrassky found some other way.
Lars
Del, and all the others that may be skeptical about this proposal, You are partially right. It is Living History Lite. It IS a way to involve our members in reading, questioning, probing, researching History.
Take for example, the persons that float through our organization, and exert no effort to scrape any deeper than the surface. Any teacher can tell you, that the only way to teach is to get the students to want to learn and to look and do on their own. That's what this is all about. It provides an incentive for learning and some slight personal reward for doing so. Believe me, once they really get those books open and start looking and asking questions, they are Hooked. Look at all the people in our organization that do the looking for nothing more than personal curiosity and satisfaction. You and O.T. are among the most visible. That's the end result. Personal learning. Personal achievement. No more, no less.
One misconception about the Originals is that it will be forced on clubs/posses. That is not the case. For the first part, unless there are at least THREE approved entrants, there can be no category. There must be at least three entrants to do the scoring, as the process requires interaction on the part of the entrants. There can be no offering to only one entrant. It doesn't work that way. There is no extra work involved on the posse level either, as the Range Officer simply gives the entrants their score time and they complete the process.
What's this mean? Simple, unless there is enough interest in the local posse to achieve the necessary minimum of three entrants, it is non-existant. As can be readily seen from this, the only way it could ever be mandatory would be at the National or Regional level, with LOCAL OPTION at the posse level.
Even then, if there are not enough entrants to field the necessary numbers to make it work, there can be no category.
In this light, there is no way it is being forced down anybody's throat, singly or collectively. As I said before, it is Self-limiting. No interest, no category. Enough interest, a category.
This is what I feel needs to be made plain when the proposal is made to the Congress.
BTW, where there are no storks, babies are left under cabbage leaves. Everyone knows that. ;D
Cabbage leaves??! ;) I sure have learn't a lot from you F. Jack!
Not gona catch me growin any cabbage!! ::)
Quote from: French Jack on November 13, 2005, 07:03:42 AM
One misconception about the Originals is that it will be forced on clubs/posses. That is not the case. For the first part, unless there are at least THREE approved entrants, there can be no category. There must be at least three entrants to do the scoring, as the process requires interaction on the part of the entrants. There can be no offering to only one entrant. It doesn't work that way. There is no extra work involved on the posse level either, as the Range Officer simply gives the entrants their score time and they complete the process.
What's this mean? Simple, unless there is enough interest in the local posse to achieve the necessary minimum of three entrants, it is non-existant. As can be readily seen from this, the only way it could ever be mandatory would be at the National or Regional level, with LOCAL OPTION at the posse level.
Even then, if there are not enough entrants to field the necessary numbers to make it work, there can be no category.
In this light, there is no way it is being forced down anybody's throat, singly or collectively. As I said before, it is Self-limiting. No interest, no category. Enough interest, a category.
This is what I feel needs to be made plain when the proposal is made to the Congress.
French Jack, now I am really confused. The way the by-laws are now, there's no requirement for three entrants. Earlier you wrote:
Quote from: French Jack on November 09, 2005, 06:29:06 PM
However, on the face of it, to reply to your question: At this time you don't have to do anything. If you wish to allow the entrant to do so, and have basis to believe that they have gone throulgh the "vetting" process, I guess they get to shoot against themselves. If they haven't been approved by at least 3 "Originals" , they still don't get to enter as such. If you by chance have the requisite number on hand, it is still your call. The scoring is not a giant item, I can e-mail you the scoresheets we used at the Nationals.
This reads to me that
one person can enter in the category. Which way is it, one or three?
???
AnnieLee
Annie Lee, at this point in time, the bylaws do require all categories to be offered if there is one entrant. This won't work in the Originals. A minimum of three entrants are needed to complete the scoring. One entrant could shoot, but would not get a complete score for the category. In essence, a practice round.
If this is adopted as a catagory, it would require at least three entrants to complete the scoring process. This means that it would have to be specifically stated that the bylaw did not apply.
If the bylaw is changed, as is proposed, it would be moot, because no one would have to offer a category if there are less than three entrants. With the proposals to greatly expand the categories, this may well be the answer to a lot of problems encountered by local clubs. It would leave it to the option of the local club if they wished to waive the numbers.