The title says it all. I want to get an 1860 Army for CAS. Which one is better, Uberti or Pietta? Why? Which feels most like the original (I have an original by Colt)?
Cheers!
I have two Pietta 1860 Armies. I also owned an A.Uberti 40 years ago. Never saw a difference in the two.
Take a look at how much room there is under the rammer. The originals have a lot more room than the repros. I've never been able to get the LEE conical to load in a Pietta 1860 but have in my Hartford Model ASM 1860. I owned a Cimarron (Uberti) briefly about 20 years ago and IIRC there was more room under that rammer than on the ASM. As for feel, I couldn't tell you. The current batch of Piettas are better made than about 5+ years ago so there is less difference. The old Cimarron/Uberti seemed to be of harder steel than the Piettas of that day. If you are talking older made guns then it is a slam dunk, get the Uberti. I can't tell from feel any difference between the different makes as the grips are pretty much the same (unlike the wierdo flared Pietta NAVY grips which are different than everybody else's).
I only own Ubertis so I can't compare. I ave looked at Piettas and haven't been impressed with their quality and finish.
If you go to the Dark Arts archive there is an article on tuning the Pietta for competition that
Also makes some interesting comments and comparisons to Ubertis.
I like the Pietta 1860s with 5 1/2 inch barrels. The pair I have are set up to be fast & smooth. All my 1851s/61s are Uberti. I don't like the Pietta grip shape.
If you look at current production
# the Uberti is closer to the original dimensionally. Particularly the shape of the Pietta grip is off.
# the Pietta gets the notch as a shooter because the diameters of the chambers are already adjusted some to the rifling groove dia.
If the objective is a competition pistol and out of the box both pistols will benefit from a complete overhaul by a gunsmith who is specialized in tuning jobs for 1860 models.
This includes the adjustment of the arbor to proper length, exchange of nipples, hardening of critical parts of the lockwork., etc.
Long Johns Wolf
If your criteria is similarity to originals, I believe Uberti still gets the nod. Not only overall lines, but the fact that Uberti at least tries to hide the proof markings, etc. under the rammer where it is out of sight. This is not to knock Piettas, the current ones have a lot going for them in many ways. But you did mention a comparison to originals. As for CAS usage, flip a coin as they both need attention, usually in different areas.
i have owned both but not only own Piettas.
My brace of 60s are Piettas. They are now equipped with Kirst Konverter cylinders and Kirst ejectors. They fit my big hands very well and are the most natural pointing pistols I've ever shot. They are more fragile than Rugers, but what isn't? Walt fitted the parts to my Piettas and he said that Pietta had improved their quality to the point that he now feels that both Pietta and Uberti were equal. So, buy what fits you and look to price.
DD-MDA
Actually, I'm just piling on some other comments. Sort of. I spent 16+ years working on and setting up CAS guns for competition. A direct comparison is a moot point. Neither gun, Uberti nor Pietta are ready for a CAS match out of the box. Unless your a masochist.
Both guns will suck caps and neither will run reliably. Each have similar faults and each have good points.
If your main concern is semi authentic looking markings, Uberty is the way to go. After you get your prize out of the box, you will need to fix the arbor/barrel fit before you do anything else. Then comes the rubbin, buffin, spring changing, wedge fitting, timing and what ever else you find not quite right.
If your looking for a gun that is easier to set up for CAS, Pietta is your bet. Throughout the Pietta line, there is standardization and interchangeability you won't see from Uberti. Also lots of really fun "never was" guns that are just plain KOOL!!
There are "how to"s" available for one who is handy with tools, but since I lost my mind and dove into Cap 'n' Ball, I've personally really enjoyed Pietta guns.
YMMV
Coffinmaker
They each have their pluses and minuses. For CAS shooting both require some tuning to make them competition ready. I find the Pietta's to be easier to set up for competition. The best 1860s I have are a pair of Pietta 1860s. I've have originals, Belgium Centare's, Ubertis and Piettas. For CAS competition the Piettas are my go to guns.
Remember that sometimes it is the non-standard that reeeally makes something personal for the individual. Sometimes I think I am the only one who really appreciates the Navy grip frame as designed by Pietta. Just something about that bell shape that makes it fit almost perfectly. Even old Samuel Colt got a touch of that non-conformist attitude and mix-matched a Pietta style model, or perhaps it was the other way around?? At one time there was an article, with photos, posted here that showed a pair of the earliest Colt 1860 prototypes made. These were a pair made to be tested by the Govt for the military and they were slightly different from what was eventually accepted. Those first 1860 Colt Armys were made up with the Navy grip frames and 7 1/2" barls but the Yankee generals called for those two elements to be changed. In the end Colt was more in tune with the better design elements than were the generals who turned that first prototype down, those two features were returned to with the 1873 SAA.
Quote from: Slowhand Bob on February 05, 2015, 08:38:04 AM
Remember that sometimes it is the non-standard that reeeally makes something personal for the individual. Sometimes I think I am the only one who really appreciates the Navy grip frame as designed by Pietta. Just something about that bell shape that makes it fit almost perfectly. Even old Samuel Colt got a touch of that non-conformist attitude and mix-matched a Pietta style model, or perhaps it was the other way around?? At one time there was an article, with photos, posted here that showed a pair of the earliest Colt 1860 prototypes made. These were a pair made to be tested by the Govt for the military and they were slightly different from what was eventually accepted. Those first 1860 Colt Armys were made up with the Navy grip frames and 7 1/2" barls but the Yankee generals called for those two elements to be changed. In the end Colt was more in tune with the better design elements than were the generals who turned that first prototype down, those two features were returned to with the 1873 SAA.
I worked for a short time at the largest gun auction house in the world. One day I came across an 1860 army #0002. It had a fluted cylinder and navy grips. Pretty cool.
Most of my Uberti 1860's have fluted cylinders and I always put Navy grips on them, even before I handled ol' #0002.
Quote from: Roosterman on February 05, 2015, 12:52:11 PM
I worked for a short time at the largest gun auction house in the world. One day I came across an 1860 army #0002. It had a fluted cylinder and navy grips. Pretty cool.
Most of my Uberti 1860's have fluted cylinders and I always put Navy grips on them, even before I handled ol' #0002.
Roosterman, do you happen to recall how much ol' #0002 sold for at the time?
Quote from: Abilene on February 05, 2015, 02:54:33 PM
Roosterman, do you happen to recall how much ol' #0002 sold for at the time?
No, only worked there for 30 days and it was still being processed for a future auction by the time I left. It probably brought big bucks as it was in really good condition. This was probably 10 years ago or more.
I got to play with John Wayne's guns plus a whole bunch of historical guns too. Pretty cool job, but I couldn't see sitting in front of a computer for the rest of my life making 1/3rd of what I usually make.
I have a Pietta 1873 I am very happy with.
I bought a 1860 Uberti last year, and sent it back as 4 of 6 cylinders did not line up with the barrel, and the trigger guard casting had an error.
Thanks so much, Pards, for all the great advice, as always in the Den. Funny how sometimes "the best laid plans" and all. After all the great advice, I went down to my favorite Gunshop, to inquire about cost and how long for delivery, for both brands. As you might know up here above the 49th, getting handguns is a might more difficult. Getting a specific brand and model is sometimes....harder. I was looking in particular for two model 1860's and one model 1849, 'Baby'. Apparently, if you are "lucky" and the Canadian distributor has just received a new shipment, it takes between 2 and 6 months to get the item. If you are between orders it can take between 12 and 24 months. Yes, 1 to 2 years! Needless to say I was beginning to feel sad. As I was getting ready to go, I just wandered over to the display case and............there was a brand new Uberti 1860 army, it had been in the store for quite some time and they had almost forgotten about it. I believe it was a reward from the big guy. Needless to say I adopted this poor forgotten gun and now at least have one out of three. It's going to be a great weekend! Time to make some smoke!
Cheers!
Quick question, Pettifogger? Are you the same guy that wrote the 4 part article on "Tuning the Uberti Open Top Revolvers"? I found some references to it in the archives and found a copy. Thanks, Pard.
Cheers!
Yes he is. wM1
As best I recollect, I have 2 each Pietta, Uberti & "Colt" , plus 1-ASM.
Between my Pietta and Uberti models, I'd hands-down take the Uberti....I built these from consecutive S/N "kits" that I acquired from the exchange board on the SASS wire. They were older models and had been sitting around for quite some time. Took a lot of fitting, most of the internals would not assemble without major work. I spent somewhere near 12 hrs each fitting the parts, deburring, etc and polished/dressed the moving parts at the same time. The result was 2 mechanically suberb revolvers with matching actions. These were super-reliable until approximately 2011 when I ran out of 20th century percussion caps and had to use "new" ones.
Overall, I've shot the snot out of my Uberti 1860s and have made very few repairs.
Haven't shot the "Colt" set yet....but will someday....I hope.
Agree that any new C&B pistol will need significant going-over to remove sharp edges, burrs, etc.
My Pa has 2, or maybe 3 Pietta 1860s that I've tuned & polished. He wanted them setup to be conversions, so they've never been shot with loose-ammo. They're good guns with decent actions, but haven't been shot much.
Slim
Pietta replacement parts seem to be more consistant in uniformity. I had somthing like six or eight cylinders fer the Navy at one time and they all fit the same,aligned the same(well), measured the same ect.ect.
I like the uniformity of the Piettas and the replacement parts. The little internal parts of Pietta's are nicer. The bolts smoother and shiny and the triggers uniform and well shaped and hammers nice and uniform and trigger bolt springs nice and smooth and shiny and uniform.
Pietta parts are easier to come by besides being more uniform.
Uberti changes their parts from time to time so a stock of parts may end up being harder to fit.
Pietta parts seem to be less expensive. The replacement parts assembly kits by Pietta are a real bargin.The hammer,trigger,bolt,mainspring,trigger/bolt spring. Nice parts kit.
The arbors are a lot more likely to be the right length in the Piettas since Pietta seems to take the time to keep tolerances really uniform and closer to correct. They strive to have the arbors bottomed correctly out of the box.
Uberti hasn't caught on yet that people know how the arbors should fit now. Doesn't seem to care if the fit of the arbor length is important and Folks know it. They still go with the fact most newbies are not knowledgeble bout stuff like that and take advantage of the naive.
The extra trouble Pietta takes to fit the arbors proper with the tolerances shows throughout the guns with all the tolerances more than not..
The cylinders on the Piettas seem a little softer than Uberti.
The Uberti doesn't have the stamping dowm the side of the barrel like the Pietta.
Pietta has the relationship between the chambers diameter and the barrel grooves diameter closer to correct. so......I'd bet on the Pietta to be more accurate out of the box.
Pietta has wedges fit so well in the arbor/barrel slots the wedge seems impossible to remove the first time around and.....the hook on the end of the spring in the wedge seems made to hook the edge of the barrel and not give way till the spring actually makes it's own little bevel where it needs room to get out of the barrel. The tipof the spring in the wedge needs filed on some so it doesn't hook the barrel so well .
Pietta has the timing of the action so the bolthits right on the edge of the cylinder notch with enough force to start peening the edge as soon as the action is worked. The edge to that side of the cylinder notches ends up destroyed since the cylinder steel is soft with the cap&ballers. Soft cylinder on Uberti and Pietta.
A lot of people don't know to correct the timing of the Pietta right out of the box to have the bolt hit back to the cylinder away from that edge enough so it isn't destroyed. ******* First thing to do with a Pietta right out of the box is to temporarily loosen the trigger/bolt spring so the action can be worked without ruining the cylinders notches which ruins the cylinder. Loosening that screw also lightens the trigger so that trigger side of the spring should be un-lightened before shooting the gun to be safe.
The bolt in the Uberti is better fitted to the cylinders notches compared to Pietta.
Niether Uberti or Pietta have the hammers set to be dry fire safe so the hammers get peened up too soon.
Uberti and Pietta have barrel grooves deeper on one side of the barrels than the other too often.
Pietta usually has the bolts not quite fitting the cylinder notches so that ill fit(bolt too wide)helps damage the notches even more than the timing letting the bolt hit the edge of the cylinder notches and peen them down. Since the top of the Pietta bolt has the cant to it too canted the fit of the bolts to the cylinder notches is the achillies heel to them right out of the box....bad bolt fit to the cylinder notches.
Uberti and Pietta do a great job making the cap&baller revolvers for us.The fact that both companies go thru the trouble to do such a good job making the guns but....leave certain aspects so ill and never srtraighten those illnesses out is a real mind bender.
The Companies both make nice guns but why they don't SEE what the Hombres state about the certain ill aspects to the guns...like the short Uberti arbors,the stamping on the side of the Pietta barrels, the ill Pietta bolts fit and timing, the soft cylinder steel of both Uberti and Pietta, the ill relationship of chambers to barrel grooves, the Pietta wedges too tight in the guns out of the box and whatever else I'm fergitting.
The very least needed done is the Uberti short arbor and the Pietta ill timed and fit bolts should be addressed. The soft cylinder steel also needs adressed.
Now....don't get the wrong idea bout the cap&baller revolvers from me being so picky. The Uberti and the Pietta are nice guns and worth the money.
Truly Grits and Pettifogger: I have an 1860 Uberti that I bought in the mid 70's and would like to find another to match it. But I am really interested in this tuning article you mentioned. Can you sent me in the right direction to get a copy?
...and just one more thing - where can I get a set of replacement nipples for my Uberti 1860 - preferably a set that fits our modern #11 caps? Is the set that Taylor's and Co. sells appropriate?
Uberti 1860 Army cap&ballers are still the same now as in the 70's.....close enough.
Any Uberti nipples should fit a Uberti. Uberti makes good nipples. Taylors sells them.
I've had Uberti guns since the mid eighties and they are still going strong. Piettas since 2001 or so and still going strong.
For CAS/SASS competition you will want performance nipples like Treso's or Slix-Shot. Most shooter prefer the new Slix-shot cones. Both are made for Uberti or Pietta's, you must specify which you prefer.
In the Dark Arts library here, you will find the fine articles on tuning the C&B Revolvers, By Larsen Pettifogger.
Please excuse my stupidity, but can you provide a link to the article?
Quote from: Gabriel Law on February 07, 2015, 08:09:31 PM
Please excuse my stupidity, but can you provide a link to the article?
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=7988.0
Hi Rifle,
Earlier in the life of this thread, I didn't feel much like a dissertation on the "what's wrong with Pietta and Uberti so I deliberately kept my answer short. However:
I wish there were some way to make copies and include your answer to this question in every kid's box. :D
I retired a couple of years ago but, I still council all my friends who purchase Pietta, to bring the new gun by the house so I can fix the bolt fit before they ever cycle the action.
Coffinmaker
Yep, Pietta's are known for over-size bolts and tight cylinder locking notches. Bolts must be fitted for proper function & operation.
Once again, Thanks Pards. I'm so glad for finding this forum and all the great advice from all of you.
I found Pettifogger's articles and have read them through, twice. Taken the gun apart and checked both the arbor and the bolt fit. Both were perfect, right out of the box. I've test fired a full set off caps, no issues. Am I just having beginners luck? Guess it's time to load em up n git on with it.
One more question. DD, I believe I have read here that you use a Tupperware full of Moosemilk for clean up after shooting. Do you just toss the whole gun in, grips and all? Or just the cylinder and barrel? Do you scrub them out? If you do scrub, Nylon or brass brush?
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By the way this is Grandpa n the Kid. Both 1860 Army, Grandpa was made in 1867 and has lived long n hard, judging by his scars. He still works, but I figure he has earned a pampered retirement. I so wish he could talk, I'll bet the stories would be great. The Kid and his twin (in transit) will do the heavy lifting now.
Again, thanks Pard's. I hope to meet many of you over the next few years, at some matches.
Cheers!