I once had another shooter give me a hard time about shooting Frontier Cartridge at a match. He was very indignant and expressed his disdain for this practice in no uncertain terms. I could see that he was angry. I've always tried to be as unobtrusive as possible about shooting black powder. Back in my Frontiersman days I was able to reload and cap my pistols in what surely amounted to world record time and kept cleaning to an absolute minimum. I don't remember what I said to him but tried to be calm and reasonable. Has anyone else had a similar experience?
It's not your problem, report it to the guy running your posse. You shoot a legitimate category so don't worry about it.
Frontier Cartridge is meant to be LOUD, STINKY, SMOKEY and FUN. If someone doesn't like all the catagories in SASS maybe they should take up knittin'. wM1
What Wildman said...
Once witnessed a Ass-hat , bitch'n' about the smoke & acrid smell ... he also complained the fellow took to long to reload
(C&B)
After a few stages, the C&B'er packed up , seems he was encouraged to leave .... by the Nitro Nazi
The very worst display of un-sportsmanship and anti-WAS, I ever witnessed.
Only dog in the fight I had was, " disgusted ", and chose to help the C&Baller pack-up and leave with him, I have never returned to any of the Nitro Nazi's matches.
I've never been hassled but often pitied. Lots of coughing & fanning away smoke. My greatest joy is to set a prop/target on fire.
See photos as to how I've been "hassled".
I get a few negative comments but nothing suggesting I can't or shouldn't shoot. One couple dropped in from Idaho to shoot with us made the comment, "Oh, your one of those guys!", in a sneering tone when I announced I was shooting BP. But we had a good cordial visit otherwise.
I bet the acceptance or non-acceptance BP shooters is regional and maybe club to club.
They don't need or want your business, but if they are a SASS affiliated club they are definitely not playing by SASS rules. Talk to the match director and ask direct questions. Be professional, courteous and firm. Failing to get satisfaction, shake the dust off your boots and leave and don't return.
Meanwhile, please know that you are very welcome at the large majority of SASS affiliated clubs.
DD-MDA
We, South Texas Pistolaros, have BP guys shoot with us on occasion. We've never had a problem with it. The guy that shot C&B was allowed to go to the next stage and load his cylinders so as to get ready a bit quicker. I just don't see how it's a problem.
I was once told by a Nitro Nazi Know it ALL, I couldn't shoot Cap Guns as FCGF at a State Level match. Several "others" on the posse were kind enough to take the offending miscreant aside and explain How the Cow Eats Cabbage. He continued to snarl and make disparaging comments, so I went to the MD and asked for a Sportsmanship ruling. The MD agreed and the penalty was assessed. The penalty is MDQ. Sent him home.
Any time some Nitro Nazi wants to give a BP shooter, or Cap Gun shooter a hard time, stand your ground, grab the MD and don't be shy about asking for a Sportsmanship decision. The rules of the SASS game provide for BP and Cap Gun shooters to have just as much of a RIGHT to play as those hethan Nitro shooters..
Coffinmaker
I have always shot BP. Prefer it over any other propellant powder. Partly because I do shot original firearms.
For years I was the only BP shooter, both cap guns as well at cartridge. I never gave the Nitro guys the satisfaction of knowing my shooting BP was pissing them off. I, simply didn't care! And if they were well informed, they should know better.
I just felt sorry for them for this lack of knowledge.
In fact, most of the shooters on the posies I shot in and with cheered over the smoke and flame when I was finished.
My best,
Blair
Blair you probably shot with most of the Crowd, I shot with....
The BP shooter I speak of, had a Confederate persona , he shot a Henry, two 51 Navy's & I think a Stoeger... and was out perhaps his 2nd or 3rd match... He shared the Henry & SXS with his brother, he'd move on to the next stage to load.
The skin head Nitro Nazi was the discipline director dictator , at this match.... never saw him again ( goody)
I had enough of his belligerency and pull out myself at the 4 stage break ...
My wife won LFC in five straight regionals and two Colorado state championships. No one has ever hassled her but it may be due to the fact that she is an adorable redhead. Anyway if they ever did, I feel genuinely sorry for them. My nickname for her is "scary woman" and she's proud of it.
I just tell spotters and "lungers" to get up wind 'cause the smoke is about to start.
I figger if it was good enough for Old Wyatt, Doc,Bat, Billy and Bill and the rest of the guys, it is good enough for me
MAKE MORE SMOKE!!!
HAVE MOE FUN!!
hold center
Bunk
Nothing but respect for BP shooters in our crowd. We're a modest, but steadily growing minority in our club.
There is a lot of kidding around at our matches when I shoot, but all in fun. I am the only one at the moment, as we said goodbye to another BP shooter not long ago. We had the memorial at our cowboy range, and shot a 21 gun salute (BP). All the non BP shooters were honoured to participate.
Good advice about the sportsmanship call. Will have to remember that.
Swede
If you are worried about smoke, don't come and shoot with the Ozark Posse. It's not unusual for us to have 40% + shooting smoke both FC, FCD, FCGF,Frontiersman and on occasion LFC and Frontiersman GF.
Our policy is: "If the the RO ain't coughing, you ain't using enough powder!".
Our TG shoots a Walker on one side and a Dragoon on the other, an 160 Henry and a 10 ga hammered double.
I am fortunate enough to shoot on a posse here in NJ where a number of regulars shoot blackpowder (including my wife), so there is never any problem. We have, however, had complaints about the cigar smoke (my wife doesn't do that), mostly from visitors. I don't get it. What is more pleasurable than good cigar smoke mingling with the fragrance of blackpowder? These complainers really should find something else to occupy their time.
Shouldn't it be the other way. If one shoots that fake gunpowder, they get hassle? ;)
Doesn't one get more points for smoke and fire? A load bang, fire and smoke makes me ;D
I do not shoot Black or Subs yet. I love watching the pards that shoot that stuff. Those that don't should keep their mouths shut and move on.
S. Floyd.
In the real world of the Old West everyone shot BP until 1895. The only one's who ever complained about it were the unfortunates who got shot with it. The period from the end of the Civil War to the smokeless era was thirty years. Many folks continued to use DuPont's finest long after that. That interval represents 86% of the simulated years in CAS. I think that statistic alone justifies the modern BP shooter. I sure like that sportsmanship/interpersonal crisis ruling. I'd rather resort to friendly reasoning but won't be afraid to lay that ace on the next recalcitrant.
When I hear shooters complain about the shortage of their supply of the smokes somewhat less heathen stuff I just laugh and tell them I have a easy and plentiful supply of powder.
Primers seem to becoming a bit more plentiful. A sporting goods store near here has a good assortment of both large and small rifle and pistol primers in stock at reasonable prices.
More smoke!!
More fun!!
Bunk
SMOKELESS IS A FAD!! ;D
This thread has given me some options should I ever encounter a problem.
But, I have been fortunate in the acceptance and guidance I've received in transitioning to black powder. I have witnessed the coughs and hands over the ears from a few of the spotters, and I have to admit that it is tougher on them than me when I'm shooting! I've probably been given more flack by the BP shooters for the times I've used a sub instead of black powder (that will change now that I have a new supply of properly lubed bullets). It was all in good fun, and nothing at all unsportsmanlike.
Smokeless is merely a BP substitute.
I've had to ask some of the spotters to please not stand so close when I've shot, especially when they called misses because they didn't "see" the target hit. The clang was just a coincidence. The match directions stated clearly that a miss was only a miss if you could physically tell it had missed. 1% doubt and it was supposed to be called a hit.
That's just another way the nitro guys discourage BP shooters.
Quote from: Frank Dalton on January 26, 2015, 04:40:20 PM
I've had to ask some of the spotters to please not stand so close when I've shot, especially when they called misses because they didn't "see" the target hit. The clang was just a coincidence. The match directions stated clearly that a miss was only a miss if you could physically tell it had missed. 1% doubt and it was supposed to be called a hit.
That's just another way the nitro guys discourage BP shooters.
Just remind them that the shooter gets the benefit of the doubt. I will freely admit that I don't enjoy ROing BP shooters even though I have shot hundreds of matches with the stuff.
Whenever I am a spotter for a fellow BP shooter I get way to the side so I can watch the target for movement or sound. Actually I have benefitted from shooting BP cause the spotters couldn't tell what was going on and gave me the benefit of the doubt: "If you think it's a miss, it's a hit".
Hellgate...never really thought of smokeless being a substitute...I guess that technically, it is!
Just not the same amount of smoke as 15 grains of 2Fg.
"Ever Been Hassled About Shooting BP at a Match?"
Not by a currently breathing human.
Hellgate....BTW....I like the quotes in your signature!
Troy,
My other quote is "Converting money into smoke & loud noise for over 50 years."
Quote from: hellgate on January 27, 2015, 11:55:37 AM
Troy,
My other quote is "Converting money into smoke & loud noise for over 50 years."
So you ride a Harley?
No,
A '64 Impala in need of piston rings. ;>)
While I don't shoot CAS ( sorry ) I do shoot Lever Action Silhouette with black powder.
Many of the other shooters have gotten to "know me" and a couple serious competitors may ask to be stationed away from me.
Other than that, it has just been a lot of good natured harassment . Folks making loud choking noises, being certain I hear them. Threatening to sue me because of "black powder poisoning". New shooters are often surprised by the very load boom of the 44WCF and may ask "what the hell are you shooting, a Howitzer?"
On one occasion I elected to shoot a different rifle with smokeless loads. This was my choice as I knew no one would be able to see the targets that day. There was a heavy mist just hanging in the air with absolutely no breeze of any kind . I was sure of what that would look like. I just did not want to dirty a rifle and five pieces of brass to confirm it.
I had a good experience this weekend at the local gun club "fun shoot" that I would like to share. We were shooting steel plates at about 15 yds, timed, just for fun. I took my SAA and '73 Winchester Uberti copies, and shot BP loads. Every one else was shooting automatics, so I got a lot of attention...all good. Folks were curious and interested in the firearms, and ammo. I got video'd on several cell phones. I was asked to shoot gunfighter style on one run. My performance with one in each hand was terrible, as I've only done this at targets much closer, but the crowd was pleased.
When asked if I was going to shoot the SAA in the second run, a few folks were disappointed when I told them I was going to shoot my "assault" rifle. However, they were much pleased that my definition of an assault rifle was a Winchester '73!
Hopefully, I've planted a seed that could result in some matches for 'cowboy" guns at the local club, and/or generate some new SASS members....
Good Troy; Have you checked in with SHOTS? You get credit for propagating the Dark Arts if you get someone introduced to the True Gunpowder.
Woe is me. It's the end of an era.
This year, SASS has finally recognized Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter as an established category. Here, for years I was the "outlaw." Always registered for matches as FCGF whether it was actually being offered or not. Now, I've become legit. A real bummer.
Last couple of seasons though, I started shooting FCGF with Cap Guns. Really drove em nutz. Now, not only do I shoot Cap Guns, they are Snubbies. Pietta 1860 and 1851s with 3 inch barrels. Incredible fun. Plus!!! Wait for it ....... I use APP. I don't get the big ball of flame but ..... ha ha, my cloud of smoke is bigger than your cloud of smoke. Real damp days with no breeze are kind of a bummer though.
If ya don't like the BIG cloud of smoke, change yer posse ........ or GO HOME!! See, I'm a very understanding person. Very.
Coffinmaker
From the git go FCGF is the only category I've ever shot. Now, it's legal. I swear Sundance, the whole world had blinders and I have 20-20 vision. . . . .
When I lift a sixgun from leather in each hand, I intend to deliver hellfire and violence to the steel varmints. Whether or not spotters can see what I'm hitting, or missing, matters not to me. I'm in a gunfight and don't have space to worry about someone watching my action.
This is one reason I enjoy Cowboy Action. I can hold forth and deal justice with true wrath and vindictiveness.
DD-MDA
I've been known to shoot the first .45 dry and then pull the next one and just "dump" on the largest target.....the spotters end up totally baffled! They can hear the CLANG but cain't see nuffin! (not that I would take unfair advantage or anything like that....... ::) ;D )
A couple of years ago at the FL state match, the humidity was high & wind was absent, so smoke was hanging over the whole range. During the stage brief one of the ROs (each stage had 2 ROs that stayed there the whole match) said "these black powder shooters need to pass out gas masks" so when I went up to shoot, I carried 2 paper towels with me. After staging my guns, I made a big ceremony of handing one to each RO & said "get ready, you are gonna need em!" One thought it was funny as hell, the other (who had made the comment) not so much.
Holler
HolliferADollar....
Quotethe humidity was high & wind was absent
...
I was born and raised in P-cola...I can relate...and Tejas ain't much differ'n.
I must be different as I simply LOVE the smell of real BP!! ;)
When I was in the USN, after a night of heavy partying, we use to report in for morning Muster after hanging our faces over the Liquid Oxygen (LOX) Cart tanks bleed off valve.
After getting involved with the N-SSA, I found the smell of black powder smoke did as well as the LOX cart bleed off.
I looked for a funny face I could add to posting to make it funny... there were none.
My best,
Blair
Nobody is hassled at our club about BP as we have put on the last two State Black Powder championships. I also do Civil War reenacting and there you better like the smell of BP. ;D ;D
Good Troy and I shoot at the same club, and we're blessed with a significant number of BP shooters. And those that don't (still the majority, dang it!) like to have us shoot.
There's nothing like the booming echoes up and down the range when someone cuts loose in rapid fire with a 45-70 lever action with full service loads of BP going after Cody Dixon targets! ;D
It also causes some chagrin among the heathen powder shooters when I beat them in both accuracy and speed on the long range lever gun match using BP........... :o
Most of what I hear is "I bought a couple of those but don't know how to load them. Can I watch you?" :-\
Thanks everyone! I just got back from my first sanctioned CAS event. I would like to thanks everyone here on the Dark Side for all the information shared and answering all my questions. Yes, there was some very "tongue in cheek" ribbing about my choice of propellants, all meant in good fun of course. Thanks again to all of my pards here on CASCity. Thanks to you, I believe that I was able to uphold the honor of the Dark Arts and it's practitioners.
(http://i1320.photobucket.com/albums/u539/Edenchef/first%20place%20001_zpsdz7fxde4.jpg)
Cheers!
Nice work Grits! Keep it dark and dirty, yours
Mean Bob
No I am usually the smart a$$ that is the hassleor not the hasslee and giving the smokes somewhat less powder shooters a hard time about my shooting the real gun powder not a substitute.
If anyone ever gave me a hard time I would simply tell them to bugger off.
We have from time to time other real gun powder shooters, and I try to carry the flag if I have time to get ammo loaded, if not I am ashamed to say I do shoot the nitro stuff, but not in my BP guns. That is a mortal sin.
Load 'em heavy boys
They air a'comin'
Bunk
Just a quick question to one side:
Reading this thread most of the contributors shoot CAS and I understand that
when you say BP is accepted this automatically speaks to Cap and Ball as well
as Single Action. My question is where would a cartridge conversion fall into this.
When I say this I don't mean a historic conversion as have been discussed in
other threads. Rather I am talking about a modern cylinder that has been
constructed to fire cartridges from a cap-and-ball pistol. Say the cartridges were
BP loads, would the modern Cap-and-ball conversion be kosher? Thoughts?
Best Wishes,
Bruce
I must be one scary sob, aint ever had one complaint concerning bp, dress codes, X-draw pistols or any of the other on-line rude manners that would seem so common. I am thinking those who do openly show such a lack of sportsman like conduct must not last long in the real world. Now habitation of the world of the internet is another another breed of cats all-together, a really nasty/vocal bunch sometimes.
Whether one or a half dozen bp shooters, all I have ever seen them endure at a match is a bit of corny, well worn joking about. You will usually be the star of the show. If media, cameras or just plain spectators show up at a match, they will usually be taken to see the guy(s) that are making smoke before they can leave.
We have been growing more and more BP shooters here in VA! Me and a few shooters do warn the RO's when we bring 10 gauge guns to the line.
I've never been directly confronted about my use of black powder, but being primarily a black powder cartridge rifle shooter, one would not expect me to have been. I did have one shooter at a gong match (which allows smokeless powder loads) tell me that "only an idiot would use black powder today. The old timers used it because that's all they had." I've seen him several times since, and maybe his never winning anything or even shooting well is somehow related to his thoughts on the matter.
But....There have been quite a few occurrences of forced coughing and comments on the order of "What is THAT?" and "You're going to blow your head off!"
I live in a thinly-populated, isolated area. Some of the locals get together periodically for a "Cowboy Shoot." Believe me, it's not CAS. Scenarios and courses of fire are made up as they go along. It's fun nonetheless. I am the only one shooting black powder cartridges, which perplexes everyone else present. More than once, I've been offered smokeless powder revolver and lever action rifle cartridges free of charge.
The latest comedy was performed by some elderly male observers (meaning they were about my age) behind the firing line. It became evident that they had no concept of electronic hearing protective muffs--"He can't hear you with them muffs on." Although not shooting participants, they were incensed that I was allowed to use black powder at all. They were additionally offended that I was too small of stature to be using a Colt SAA. I am NOT making this up.
Bruce,
ANY powder that makes big smoke is good 'nuff to qualify as "BP" for our purposes. So don't worry about being a purist. The more smoke the merrier. Most of the conversions are for the 45LC in Remington 44s.
The best reply is to state that the West wasn't won on Bullseye or Unique.
+1 What Fox Creek Kid said!!
Quote from: hellgate on June 02, 2015, 07:03:52 PM
Bruce,
ANY powder that makes big smoke is good 'nuff to qualify as "BP" for our purposes. So don't worry about being a purist. The more smoke the merrier. Most of the conversions are for the 45LC in Remington 44s.
Thanks....much appreciated.
Best Wishes,
Bruce