Howdy,
I used to be a member of NCOWS, #2120. I joined specifically to create a Texas Posse. I had high hopes for getting something different from SASS going here. Then as well as now, our local clubs boast many fine dressed shooters, in fact, Jake Jones, former Marshal of NCOWS fits right in with our folks. I consider him a friend and pard.
The problem (in my opinion) was that NCOWS was created as a regional organization. It has a lot of attraction to those who love history. When SASS was smaller, NCOWS was a viable alternative for ALL CAS shooters. That's why there are some very fast shooters and an almost "SASS" feel to some matches and clubs (I'm extrapolating there, cause I've never made it to an NCOWS match). It is very difficult for NCOWS to extract like-minded individuals from SASS without a clear rulebook. So much of CAS is learned by example and experience. Like the blind wise men who examined the elephant, we need shared experiences to KNOW how to filter and interpret the rules. That is why many of us follow the rule discussions. They are pretty dang important. The issues need to be settled. I heartily applaud the movement, even if I don't always agree with the decisions.
I do wish the little edge would fade.. There was a time when I would send like-minded folks that I was talking to about NCOWS to the TFS forum, only to have them tell me not only NO, but HELL NO!.. A good while ago, I ran a poll on TFS, asking where most new NCOWS members would come from.. the overwhelming response was SASS. That makes sense to me as well. SASS has grown to the point that there are many different forces pulling it apart. There are better clothes and guns available and enough people who are keen on history to really make a nice national group. NCOWS is the logical choice for those folks. Many of them are reading this forum, as they did on TFS.. and many of them are turned off by the negative or mocking attitude presented by some members.
To some, my words are unwelcome, as is my attention. To others, my lack of membership means that I lack credibility. I have had enough folks voice their feelings to me in the past couple of years to know that I speak for more than a few. I make this post in hopes that the elected officials of NCOWS realize the damage done in allowing negative attitudes here go unchallenged, so that the official position of NCOWS is clear. Also, I would suggest that any more significant changes or clarifications to the rules, to differentiate between NCOWS and SASS be completed as quickly as possible. In all, respect for those who have different opinions should be evident. It's the cornerstone of the way of life we all love.
Thanks for listening (reading)..
Adios,
Good post, Big Hext.
"There is iron in your words...."
I don't recall anybody ever saying that what they said on here or on TFS was the official position of the leadership of NCOWS. Most of us make a point of saying that our statements are only our personal opinion.
As a membership-run organization, I consider it a "good thing" that the members can get together and discuss, and indeed argue, over exactly what the by-laws of our orgaization actually mean.
Those who do not like to see these discussions appear to be following Bismarck's notion, that "Watching sausage or legislation being made will ruin your taste for either one."
As for me, I like to see exactly what is going into the sausage!
Grizzle Bear
NCOWS Senator
NCOWS #357
P.S. Big Hext, why an ex-member? I think the magazine alone is worth the price of the membership.
Howdy,
Gracias Rio, appreciate it..
Grizzle Bear,
It may be personal opinion, but it is also the only contact some will have with NCOWS. Also, if false or contradictory messages are made and NOT corrected, well that ain't good.
And I'm not as flush with cash as I'd like to be and while The Shootist is excellent, I just can't justify paying over $5 an issue. If I make the decision that NCOWS deserves my membership again, I'll be grateful for the return of the newsletter.
Adios,
Big Hext, I'll ride with ya anyday little Brother... ;D
Good post, Big Hext! You bring up some good points.
Perhaps you could STILL steer potential pards here, but explain to them that this Internet crowd is actually a pretty small portion of the total membership and therefore DON'T have all the answers. Also, from my experience last year on the Election Comittee (as a vote counter) I was dismayed to find that with 2200+ "members" (and probably only 1200-1300 being active, if that many) we got fewer than 500 votes. Kinda like the apathetic voters in the National Presidential elections, I guess. ???
I sure wish you'd reconsider joining up again, but if not, you're still Welcome to shoot with us (Great Lakes Freight & Mining Co.) if you get here to Indiana. And the pards in Ken-tuck and Ohio would probably feel the same way.
I am one that has read the NCOWS BB on TFS and found the information and discussion there and here quite encouraging, to the point that I joined NCOWS. I got into CAS via local SASS-affiliated clubs, I still shoot at some such clubs although I have not renewed my SASS membership and may never do so. I suspect that those that are turned off by what they see on the NCOWS BBS are not being very perceptive or informing themselves very well. Perhaps they should also visit the NCOWS website to read the By-Laws, maybe even go there first.
I will no longer travel far to attend a SASS-affiliated shoot. I will travel to other states to attend an NCOWS or W3G shoot.
With a few exceptions, SASS-affiliated clubs simply do not hold my interest on any level. The shooting is way too boring, speaking as one that does not get much fun from just standing and shooting rapidly at big targets close up, especially sitting shotgun targets. There are SASS-affiliated clubs that I shoot at ever time I can -- their shoots are quite different than at most SASS clubs.
Lars
I reckon that I have thrown out a time or two that the internet has hurt NCOWS more than it has probably ever helped. It is my opinion that NCOWS leadership is aware of this issue, but how do you stop free speech?
I have also thrown out that we have the potential to draw most of our new members from SASS. Folks who want a little change up now and again; and they already have all the stuff. Instant member, just add Tally Book. Heck, at the GAF Muster, I had 3 folks from Central Kansas ask me what it took to form an NCOWS posse. I told them. I also told them if they needed help, we would help them. There is also talk of The GAF maybe doing something again.
So unfortunately, we find ourselves in a situation where we try to fight the perseption of being a bunch of "Whack Jobs." The only way to counter that perseption is to show that we are not.
DO NOT LET THE RANTINGS OF A FEW FOLKS ON THE INTERNET ALLOW YOU TO DEFINE THE ORGANIZATION AS SUCH.
Amen, Richard, Amen ;D
Joss, a counter point to what you continually state about the SASS influence over NCOWS and why I feel it is incorrect. Most of the NCOWS clubs in the "heartland", Nebraska and Iowa, were formed because there were no SASS clubs to use as examples, I'd say it has only been in the last few years that a few SASS clubs have started to spring up, and most remain small. Went I started shooting, the only two SASS clubs that I knew about were in Grand Island, 140 miles northwest of me and two of the main club officers were NCOWS Senators, Dirk and Jill White (all but one of the other officers are also NCOWS members). Dirk also has served as the National NCOWS Judge. About the only difference between them and the NCOWS clubs was the five second versus the 10 second misses. The other club was Topeka, Kansas, again about 150 miles away, and quite different from the NCOWS clubs, I can only remember a handful of NCOWS shooters that have gone there. So I would have to submit that the NCOWS influence has been the dominate driving force behind the older NCOWS clubs, not SASS, much unlike your area where there are many SASS clubs and shooters. And with long term members like Wild Ben Raymond leaving, remember that those members use to attend events like the Nationals and now don't attend, it isn't hard to figure out why there has been such a dramatic decline in attendance for those events....
There is another perspective, one that has absolutely nothing to do with either NCOWS or SASS. People's lives change, what was once their fondest recreation can become of less interest for all sorts of reasons that have nothing to do with that recreation, club, trends, whatever. Those individuals lives and interests changed for some reason -- maybe internal reasons, maybe external reasons, maybe the recreation changed, maybe the person's interests drifted.
Some folks seem to change interests every 3-10+ years. I chatted with one prominent SASS shooter once and learned that his personal cycle of heavy involvement in a recreation has consistantly been about 12 years, followed by a bit of searching for something new. I made major job changes about every 3,5 years --- others spend decades in the same business. Some brothers leave home at the earliest chance -- some stay and take over the family business.
I enjoyed SASS for a few years, I am now enjoying NCOWS even more. How long will that last? At least a few more years. SASS outlived its value to me. NCOWS offers me more that is appealing to me at the present stage of my life and interests. That too can and likely will change.
Lars
All good posts. You guys are hitting the nail on the head in my humble opinion.
We need to be careful and positive when we pit authenticity fun against shooting fun.
When I started, I shot more SASS than NCOWS. But after a few trips to "Gunfire in the Hills", I think I really got spoiled on what CAS shooting can be. If my pards back in Illinois had the chance to shoot with us at NTR, or Valparaiso, or FDR, etc...I think they would be pleasantly surprised and many would want to make the switch and invest in NCOWS.
Hmmm, gives me an idea for an investment in our future...an all expense paid trip to an NCOWS event for folks in other, NCOWS remote areas of the country...we could call it advertising.....or investing in our future....
Great idea Surly Bob!!!! ;D
Wymore, I agree that some NCOWS posses got started because there was no SASS presents in the Mid-West. Unfortunately some of those clubs wanted to be more SASS like than NCOWS and only became NCOWS posses because there wasn't any SASS. Some have remained with NCOWS mostly in name only because of the insurance deal.
The first NCOWS posse in Wisconsin has become so SASSified that they only hold the required 2 NCOWS events a year and I no longer attend their annual shoot because their stages are all the same and the targets like the typical SASS match are so big and close you really have to work at it to have a miss. This is the match I shot clean last year and was bored out of my skull.
I think Joss's point is well taken that the SASS influence on some posses is very distinct.
I would think that most would like to have an obvious difference between the 2 groups. I can never understand why some want one to be more like the other ???.
Will Ketchum
Will,
I think that there is a difference between the two group. I don't think it's subtle either. Now, just to through this out, y'all have read my advocacy of leaving the SS rifle issue alone. Why, because I think that most folks who shoot SASS meet the equipment requirements for NCOWS and either meet or could easily meet the clothing requirements.
I think that NCOWS is more relaxed and focused on Marksmanship (That 10 seconds per miss is a but kicker). I also think that NCOWS may offer more diversity in shooter pardigm. Small and far or big and close, you can find it here. But you just can't beat the open campfire.
Will, sorry to hear about your area posse, in the posses that I've shot with, I never feel like that I'm at a SASS match and I've been to several... I was talking with some internet CAS friends recently on the phone, was they describe as their local SASS matches, I don't think it would hold my interest. So I guess I'm blessed to have multiple NCOWS posses to have fun with... ;D
Dear friends, just another perspective and maybe a topic that is hard to talk about or find words for.
It is also about people skills. We are all ambassadors for the sport, the clubs and the organizations we represent. How we act, argue or treat fellow shooters on the range and on a public forum sends out rings of energy that people pick up and interpret in all directions.
The objective for an organization is to establish a frame of rules according to their mission statement. Clubs are established within this frame, but no organization can establish a rule on people skills. That is our personal job no matter the organization.
In my work, I talk to many active shooters, "retired" shooters and potential members. I send people to local clubs and I do get feedback. New members are really not that concerned about the umbrella organizations. They are in fact willing to accept the requirements about guns, gear and rules as long as they like what they see and experience when it comes to people. As long as they feel they are welcomed and among good friends, they just adopt whatever it takes to stay and to have fun.
Clubs members and club officials are far more important than we realize or in fact talk about. The hosts of our CAS parties (read shooting events) and their way of treating their guests are more important than the organization they are affiliated with.
I have met a lot of really good people when it comes to organizational skills and they work really hard to promote the sport, either locally or nationally. Some of them just work hard and doesn't seem to reach out. The reason? They lack people skills.
I am not saying that what is mentioned in previous post is not important, but we should not forget that how we are as hosts and ambassadors make a lot more difference than some want to admit.
Another great post Marshal, thank you... ;D
Quote from: Marshal Halloway on November 03, 2005, 10:59:36 AM
New members are really not that concerned about the umbrella organizations. They are in fact willing to accept the requirements about guns, gear and rules as long as they like what they see and experience when it comes to people. As long as they feel they are welcomed and among good friends, they just adopt whatever it takes to stay and to have fun.
Clubs members and club officials are far more important than we realize or in fact talk about. The hosts of our CAS parties (read shooting events) and their way of treating their guests are more important than the organization they are affiliated with.
The above quoted statements agree very well with my own personal experience and proclivities. I have a choice of places to shoot each month. Two factors weigh heavily in my choice. One is what Marshal Halloway wrote. The other is the quality of the stages shot there. One local club scores highly on both -- yes, I shoot there every month, unless there is a scheduling conflict.
So far, each and every NCOWS shoot I have been to has also scored highly on both.
Lars
I like to shoot. I also like to study history and dress as authentically as my budget allows.
Wymore mentions how his experiences are with some of the original clubs where SASS didn't have much or any influence. Some of our newer clubs have branched off in slightly different directions. As long the guideline "if it didn't exist between 1860 and 1899" is remembered and adhered to, I see room for both types of clubs: authenticity types and more competitive types. I don't personally see the point of some of the gun mods out there FOR COWBOY GUNS but that's just me! There's room around our campfire for all types and I carry an extra cup so new pards can enjoy some of GW's fine Cowboy Coffee, too!
Howdy Pards, Was just reading your posts and thought i would put in my 2-cents worth. This humble pilgrim just mailed my dinero in to become a member of NCOWS have never been to a NCOWS shoot although i am looking foward to it, I am a member of SASS and have been for quite sometime. My reasons for joining your group is Im tired of all rule changes and arguments related to SASS. making allowances for race guns and not least of all whenever the posse marshall reads the senario all the winning and complaining. It is my hope i will not find these kinds things in NCOWS at least not as much as SASS.
Welcome to NCOWS L.L. I believe you'll be pleasantly surprised.
Welcome Lucky Lefty!!
Lars
Welcome to the fire Lucky Lefty... ;D
Glad to have you join the ranks, Lefty.
Feel free to contact me if there is anything I can do for you.
Howdy,
Welcome to NCOWS Lucky Lefty! I've been a member for less than a year, but every one that I have met has been friendly and more than willing to help me get started.
I have never been to a SASS shoot or one at any of the founding clubs, other than the Nationals. From the opinions expressed on the NCOWS boards and from visiting with NCOWS members at the shoots that I have attended, I have come to the conclusion that some posses are oriented toward shooting competition, and others are less competitive and more history oriented. I see no reason that both types can't exist within the mission statement of NCOWS. Some want only shooting to count in rankings. Some enjoy adding other things such as an old west history test or clothing documentation. Since members chose which class that they will compete in, there is room for all!
It is great that NTR is a big club with members who enjoy lots of shooting. It is also great that KVC is able to hold shoots that are less CAS traditional, but satisfying to our members. Lots of room around the campfire for all of us.