I want to share my opinion about the two rifles I was looking at recently. Winchester 1892 and it's copy- Rossi M92.
I used to be a purist when it comes to American arms. But this whole idea changed in the last few years and here is why.
While searching for a lever action I've noticed that a number of people who owns and use original American made guns is rather low. Of course all or most cowboy movies used a Winchester. Now, I'm thinking to myself, Winchester is no longer an American product. It's Japanese! And another thought came to my mind... I wonder how much are those costing now?
To my suprise (but sort of expected) it turned out that if I wanted a Miroku made Winchester it's a $1000.00 plus investment.
Now, Rossis are made in Brazil, so who gives...? I figured that Miroku Winchesters more than likely have a superior fit an finish but for for the money they're asking for it I can can like two and a half rifles from Rossi, or bunch of ammo, or a SAA to go with it, or leather scabbard, or whole cowboy outfit, or get my wife a USA made Henry in .22, so she doesn't bitch that I got a new rifle, etc etc etc.
I heard that some Rossis have kind of rough actions, but will slick up with time, or some minor part replacements.
I heard that some Rossis are ammo picky, especially in .357mag or .44spl, but I think it's a matter of polishing the feed ramp (who doesn't like gunsmithing their own guns, huh?).
I heard that some Mirokus are lemons as well, and some come finished rather poorly.
Sure I'd like Winchester's name on my barrel, but not like that!
So except that rahter stupid safety button on Rossis, I see no reason to buy a Winchester marked gun, knowing that it's not made in the Mighty USA. Now, I'm talking 1892 model, but same goes for the excellent Uberti 1873 which is a great rifle or others. No one cares to make it here in the USA. I'm glad that Italians made a lot of money. I guess they're a little smarter than us.
I'm partial to that same opinion when it comes to SAA, although I will spend the money for the COlt one day. Meanwhile, I will play with my excellent Ubertis ( who sell unfinished sixguns to Colt anyway), or excellent Rugers who will last my and my grandkids ( my son turns 1 tomorrow, daughter is 11), or Berettas or any other ones for half of third of the price of the Pony and four letter word on the barrel ahead of SINGLE ACTION ARMY.
I hope my milk and eggs in the morning are not imported.
So, in the conclusion, I would like to state that I will be wearing my American jeans and buy whatever American product that is left, and use my American heritage but somewhere-else made guns, because none of the manufactures care to pick up the market on homeland with the legends of the West, Freedom and People who fought for Libery and better today.
I want to apologize if I hurt anyones feelings or opinions.
This is not to be meant as a racist, fascist, or other prejudice statement.
Would like to hear your opinions on this.
Thank You,
Bear
Bear
I am of age, when I clearly remember American Made products , pride in America and so forth.
I will decribe a point.... when I was a kid Guns, Automobiles, televisions, even your coffee pot was Made in USA.
Take Automobiles, Ford, GM , Chrysler ( Big 3 )& American Motors (AMC) had 97% of the US Market
That left 3% to mostly Volkswagon, Mercedes-Benz , some British Sport cars and a hand full of German & Itialian exotics you saw on ocasion.
The US Manufacturer's began to concern themselves , when it became 7 % , worry @ 10% and panic @ 20%
I won't say "THEY" Fiddled while Rome burned.... we saw AMC go under.
The Japanesee Makers took the World by storm ... 1st. it seems Motorcycles, ( American & British Bikes were the norm when I was kid )
No British bikes are left ( oh there are some replica's ) Only HD is about holding well as a USA Product.
Everything else is Japanesee ( and they are being built here )
You can't buy a Made in USA Television
Toyota is bigger that GM is now , Nissan ( Datson ) Honda , Mazda are all assembled in the USA ( as are Hyundai & Kia which are Korean)
Chrysler is owned by the Itialian (Fiat) and are built in Mexico , Chevy's are built in Canada & Australia ....
The Big 3 could not hold back the tide.... They joined them ...today we have world cars.
Colt as you stated worked with Uberti , Winchester is Japanesee , S&W which was sold to the British for a while and during that time tied in with Taurus Arms were World guns.
Beretta is an Italian firearms manufacturer and make guns right here in the USA, for our own US Military
That's pretty Worldly.....
Now I own a couple of Taurus pistols 1 of which is a daily carry gun my wife carries. I went out looking for a rifle just before joining NCOWS and after comparing them in the store (Bud's) I felt the 45 Colt Rossi 92 was the best choice of the Winchester and Marlins I looked at. So I ordered the exact model I wanted and have never looked back. I might add as a hunting rifle it will handle a lot heavier loads than either of the top two will as it has the strongest action out their in its class of rifle.
Now about 8 months ago I decided this coming year I would start hunting again, something I haven't done in 35 years. Well looking at rifles and thinking about where I would be hunting. Being I live in Kentucky and due to older with one eye I figured max range would be about 150 yards. So I came to the conclusion a brush gun lever action would be the best. I also decided I would go with a 45-70 as it is a caliber I've always been interested in. So again go to Bud's and look at two Marlin's and a Rossi Rio Grande. Again the Rossi had better fit and finish, smoother action including a much better trigger. Unlike the 92 that needed some buff and polish the Rio needed only need a little work on the loading gate to make it easier to load. I mounted it with a Bushnell banner 1.5-4.5x32 dusk to dawn scope for $60 and walked out of Bud's for a grand total of $490 including tax while the blued Marlin I looked at was a bit over $900 with no scope mount or scope.
Quote from: Michael Bear on March 02, 2013, 10:15:04 PM
So, in the conclusion, I would like to state that I will be wearing my American jeans and buy whatever American product that is left,
What jeans are those?My Lee and Wranglers say "heche en Mexico" and I think Levis went there too. Not so many years ago, there were hundreds of people in my area sewing jeans for Lee, now it's all gone.
One other note is Taurus Arms is in the process of acquiring Freedom Arms which is Remington, Marlin and others from what I've read recently.
It is a global market now. The American made names like Ford, GM, or Harley Davidson have as many foreign made parts in them as most imports. Yes even HD, the electronics, the brake systems, calipers and pucks, the shocks and fork components, etc. are Japaneese.
I say buy the best product with the most value for your money. The American CEO's of the big American companies could give a crap less about America, the American worker or the American consumer.
Quote from: Hickok on March 03, 2013, 02:28:46 PM
It is a global market now. The American made names like Ford, GM, or Harley Davidson have as many foreign made parts in them as most imports. Yes even HD, the electronics, the brake systems, calipers and pucks, the shocks and fork components, etc. are Japaneese.
I say buy the best product with the most value for your money. The American CEO's of the big American companies could give a crap less about America, the American worker or the American consumer.
in part some of that , is on the American worker's (Unions) fault, Please understand I was a 3rd. generation UNION member.
They demanded & received many concessions , drove both costs up & jobs elsewhere, mean while productivity & quality went down....
Classic example : the UAW & Colt, not mention the quality of Big 3 Automobiles in the 70's-90's.
In my craft, the apprenticeship program went completely away, in part to Fed Gov. guildlines, my Union cared not to administer or deal with.
How do I know ? I was an Union E-Board member.
Take a moment look around you , the computer your on , the TV you watch, being winter in the Northern Hemisphere, maybe the produce in your Fridge ?
Maybe the Car(s) in your driveway :-\ perhaps your shoes Nike, Rebok, New Balance ? & shirts you wear ... truly a global market now !
Uberti does not sell "unfisnished" revolvers to COLT. Colt makes his SAA´s in the US, from forgings made by another company in HARTFORD, CT.
they did sold in the past black powder cap and ball models for the the Colt Blackpowder line, long ago, and the myth comes from there. They were 3rd generation Colt Navies, armys, and Dragoons.
Coming back to the COLT SAA clones versus the original COLTs made today, the rifling in a UBERTI is clockwise...in a COLT is anti clockwise, and many parts are not interchangable, like cylinder, hammer screw, and even the grips are slighty different.
In short, Uberti is italian, COLT is AMERICAN made. The dimensions in the barrel muzzle are also different, as well as the chambers, larger in the UBERTI. Uberti does not make SAAs for COLT, but COLT makes his own revolver in the USA.
a UBERTI is normally more inconsistent in accuracy...the COLT has dependable, trusty, accuracy. I have noticed that aspect in 25 meters competition...when you think that you have found "a perfect load", for your Uberti, the next day that same load...doesnt work so well...however you can trust the COLT more in that aspect, if you found the load, the revolver wont let you down, in most cases.
most western aficionados, by the type of shooting they do, mainly involving dynamic shooting, shooting at short distances, around 10/12 yards, wont see the difference. You will see the difference if you compete in serious bullseye, then you will see why the Colt cost more.
when it comes to a MIROKU, more or less the same....once you do serious shooting, competing in serious accuracy matches, you will be able to appreciate how much dependable is the JAPANESE made rifle.
in general, not being myself specially pro american, I must admit that the US product is superior in both steel and accuracy to the brasilian, indian and sometimes, not allways, italian product, thought not allways superior to the german, british or even spanish (our products are not so beautiful as the italian, but however are normally more durable).
MADE in USA is still for many of us, a guarantee of a well made product, specially when it comes to tools. Though cars is different, as the europeans are far more efficient.
There are crap american products also, of course, but whatever they may say, a Smith Wesson revolver is 10000Th times better than the TAURUS, and people, at least here in Europe, are willing to pay the extra. But you will only appreciate that when you use your guns in competition.
a Marlin is still much better finished than any Taurus or Rossi. Play close attention to the blueing, the corners, and the steel grade. Engrave one and you will see why the Marlin is better.
my SW K14 is an accuracy tool, that rivals or even surpasses some top of the line german competition pistols. In short, Made in USA is still a plus, and rarely you will see a product that reads so of bad quality. In my case, if I have to pay extra for a "Made in USA", I am ready to do it. I did so when I bought my Colts, or my Smiths. And I have bought one more Colt, when I can buy another Uberti for 3 times less, but they wont shoot the same with the black powder loads I use, and I want the best when it comes to shooting.
all the best
Colt is dead, has been since 1862 "Colt makes his SAA´s in the US"
.
" Uberti does not make SAAs for COLT, ( never said it did ) but COLT makes his own revolver in the USA. "
Colt is owned by Donald Zilkha Co. Jewish Iraqi Citizen
For the record , I was refering to the Colt C&B's & BP series , no myth , Colt used some Uberti parts in the 2nd Gen. Guns.
Colt by the way , did not make the 3rd gen. the late Lou Imperato was the force behind them, he simply had an agreement with Colt.
Mr. Imperato also founded Henry Repeting Arms, his son Anthony is the CEO of HRA.
Colt will letter 2nd Gens., It does not letter 3 Gens.
FYI The same British Holding Co. that bought Smith & Wesson also controled Taurus... Taurus was able to buy out.
S&W was almost lost, and was sold back to an American at a great financial loss to the Holding company.
"MADE in USA is still for many of us, a guarantee of a well made product, specially when it comes to tools"
Thank you for that :)
I believe you've said you are a Spanish citizen ? :)
Good conversation. Very good. I think he was refering to me when he said "Colt buys unfinished product from Uberti".
Yes, I said that. Maybe I got wrong info.
Anyhow, let's continue on
I've got to be honest, I've never much cared where the firearm was made, so long as it's reliable. My Uberti revolvers have so far performed FLAWLESSLY, on factory or handload ammo. Consistent groupings, even at distance. Good, solid firearms.
My Rossi Rifle... eh, it's got it's feeding problems, but it hits where I point it. Never was a big Taurus fan (Rossi is made by Taurus), but it gets the job done at a cost I can live with.
My Rock Island 1911, while yeah, not as nice fit as a Colt, I've got more rounds'n I can count (I have said elsewhere more'n 50k, that's probably accurate) through it, and nary an issue yet. I had ONE stovepipe back in the first 50-100 rounds. ONE. My local range RENTS the EXACT same firearm as what I shoot (the M1911A1-FS), and have not cleaned it once in the nearly four years it's been in service. It's had more rounds'n MINE through it, and still is just a tickin' away like clockwork. It's a 1911. They're nigh unstoppable. They're made in the Philippines.
BOTH my .22LR and my .30-30 are Marlin guns. I do believe they're made in the USA, and boy howdy, I tell ya what-they're amazing in every way, shape, and form. If I could FIND a damn 1894 Cowboy rifle, I'd snap one up so fast it'd make your head spin (if the cost were within my means). Marlin makes some of the finest firearms I've ever had the good pleasure of shooting.
My shotgun is a Stoeger. It's performed exactly as it should. Can't complain. Made in Brazil.
My wife shoots Beretta. Needs no introduction, suffice to say there's never been an issue in the 20K+ rounds we've put through her little .32 (made in Italy).
My brother has a WASR-10 variant of the AK-47. According to SEVERAL reviews, that firearm (the AK in general-not specifically the WASR) is the most reliable rifle ever made for any reason at all. It was designed in Russia. As was the Mosin-Nagant, a rifle that's still in use TODAY.
He's also got a DPMS AR-15. Decent little shooter, but it's got it's issues. Only had the pleasure of shooting it once. He hocked it a while ago, and only just got it back.
His Chi-Com SKS takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin'. I ain't saying Norinco always gets it right (their 1887s are particularly deplorable, I'm told), but they got THAT one right.
On the same note, Hi-Point firearms are mostly crap. It's hit and miss with them. You can get one that works great, no worries-and sure, get a matching carbine to go with it, why not? But you've also got the issue of it may not work at all, right out of the box. They're made right here in the US of A.
I guess what I'm driving at is, it doesn't matter where the firearm was made, so long as it works the way it's supposed to, and does a damn good job for the money you paid.
from the user´s point of view, sometimes you cant see the difference, unless you are very "into it". Let me share an example, which shows the reason why if I can buy german, japanese or european made, in general, despite being most times more expensive, I am happy to pay more:
I remember visiting the Shot Show and testing binoculars in every optics booth I could find, from the very expensive german made ones, Zeiss, Leica, austrian SWAROVSKI, to the made in China ones. And my friends did the same...and many times they came to me and told me that "there was no difference" between a, lets say 800 $ Zeiss, and a 80 $ Bushnell ....
but as I worked as a photographer, I could very well see the differences that they couldnt see:
the german/austrian lenses had allways less spherical aberrations, were allways amazingly crisp and brilliant becasue both the polishing and the german cristal was superior, and were very very true and faithful to colour tones and had allways much more resolution. If you were not "into cameras and lenses" you would not see it...but I saw it! for my friends, who were not photographers, no difference...for me...an Ocean of differences between german and chinese optic. Even the top of the line Chinese was not equal to the german optics. So the price was just...the german/austrians gave you the best, and that has a price...
about american arms, they may say that a Philippine made pistol is great, why buying a COLT? well, not only the Colt is better machined, but the steel is far superior, is forged and not a casting in frame and slide, and you will notice that when you engrave one. The Colt broke me, when engraving the slide, several background chisels....and the cut was more cosistent, with a bright fine burr, than, for instance, STI, whose slides, and frames, in some models, are cheap philippine castings.
so when SW is asking double price for a revolver that Taurus has copied and sells at half the price, they are giving you really 100 % more quality. The highger cost does not go only in higher wages, but in higher grade steel, better finish, really rounded muzzles, same chamber dimensions, a great polishing job in the barrel muzzle, and a great experience making the best revolvers in the world.
I remember reading in an Argentinian forum about someone working in the testing laboratory of the FRAY LUIS BELTRAN goverment facility, where they make both civilian and military ammo, like 38 spl.
they used SW revolvers for testing, and most of them lasted......100,000...200,000 rounds...even more...then they decided, after so many years, buying Taurus in the 1980´s......and they lasted........20,000 rounds...30,000 rounds...normally much less..before giving all type of problems.
so someone may say that it does not compensate to pay more for a SW and that a Taurus will do the same for far less...not true!... take that gun to the limit, compete with it in serious bullseye, where you may win or loose for just a point, and you will realize why in some european matches, until recently, 8 out of ten competitors were using a SW K14, or a French Manurhin revolver, or a Sig P210 ...and not a Taurus. Because they wanted the best.
I know that most of us average consumers and shooters wont take our guns to that limit. Yes, they make crap too in the USA, but the ones who buy that crap, are not very interested in quality.
the good news is that they are negociating now a free trade agreement between USA/EUROPEAN UNION. If most people can buy here a COLT, for lets say, 1000 euros, instead of the 2200 euros we have to pay now for one, Uberti is going to sell a lot less here.
I have been distributing some american goods here lately, and believe me or not, the "MADE IN USA" sells a lot outside your borders...as many european consumers associate it with a finely crafted product , while MADE IN BRAZIL or CHINA is associated with something useful but not valuable. So USA still has a name for quality outside its borders. It seems that many americans are not aware of that.
as I said, the exception is food or cars...though american food is regarded as "fun", and the Chevy Corvette is a very appreciated sport car, probably more than some italian delicatessen, regarded as "too expensive".
all the best
Major 2,
I am spanish living in Spain, not a US resident.
all the best
Petrinal, read back over my post.
Did I ever say that the "Name Brand" (Colt, S&W, etc.) firearms were lower quality than the copies? Did I ever say you were better off spending your money on the cheaper?
No.
What I said was, "I don't care, so long as it does what it's supposed to do."
I know there is a major difference between my Uberti revolvers and a Colt. I know my 1911 is not as well fit as a Colt. I know my Stoeger ain't a Greener. I'm not an idiot. I know craftsmanship, and I can tell a difference just in the handling of a firearm. I've done this for years.
But I'm not so stuck on myself as to think that anything that's not made by the original is cheap crap and a waste of money.
Here we go, you used optics as an example, as you're into photography-let me use guitars: I am a former professional musician. I have guitars of every make and model you can imagine-from Fender, to the cheapest knock off of a Fender money can buy (I gave $50 for it). My da owns a Gibson Les Paul. My former guitarist owned an Epiphone Les Paul. There was a DISTINCT difference in the feel, fit, and finish of the instrument. Just as there is between my $50 Lyon Strat Copy, and an actual American Made Strat, or, even the Mexican Made Fenders and the American Made.
I'm not arguing that point.
All I was saying is, the guns function reliably, they do what they need to do, and they do it damn well in many, many cases.
It does not matter to me where ANYTHING is made. If it does the job RIGHT, and will give me reliable service for what I pay, then I see no issue with the item in question.
And yes, there ARE instances in which the "Copy" surpasses the original-so much so that Ibanez (for the record, I'm playing an Ibanez in my profile picture) was sued by Gibson for making copies that were above and beyond what Gibson was making, and they were less than half the cost.
So, I stand by my statement: IT DOES NOT MATTER WHERE IT CAME FROM, IF IT WORKS LIKE IT IS SUPPOSED TO, AND GIVES YOU GOOD SERVICE, WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?
Major 2,
Just for clarification,although the Japanese motorcycle companies dominated the world market from teh mid 60s on,there has been a major change in the last fifteen years.
Although Harley Davidson is still the largest American motorcycle manufacturer, a large part of the motorcycle is made outside the US
But Victory motorcycles,a subsidiary of Polaris,are made in Spirit Lake Iowa. In the past 15 years Victory has grown to be the no. 2 seller of large cruiser motorcycles out shining the Japanese companies and 2nd only to Harley Davidson.
Plus Polaris has recently acquired and reintroduced Indian Motorcycles, reviving Americas Oldest motorcycle company. Both Victory and Indian are made in Iowa with American parts and utilizing American labor.
Polaris is good example of how a company can succeed without kowtowing to the unions. While Polaris is expanding its motorcycle divisions,and its stock is going thru the roof in this economy, Harley Davidson is cutting production and limiting models.
Please tell me what parts of a Harley are made outside the USA. Sure some parts are like some electronic parts, but I'll bet that many American motorcycle and car manufacturers do the same.
I keep hearing this claim but I would like to see some proof and percentages. I don't wish to hijack the thread but I am interested in seeing this statement clarified and backed up.
From a search I just did it seems the percentage is that 80% of a Harley is American made. I don't consider the remaining 20% that to be "a large part of the motorcycle ". Only HD can confirm or deny this.
When I was looking for a new car my wife insisted on me testing a Honda. It felt pretty chintzy. know theyre popular, but I wanted to try American again and ended up getting a Chevy Equinox. When I looked at the VIN...started with a 2, made in Canada :-\ At least the money stays here, and I like the car. Regardless of Colts status, Rugers are American, tough as hell and affordable. I wish they would make a version of the 1873 rifle. You can bet it would run great and never break.
Six gun,
the problem is that sometimes to get the job done, you need the best. Thats why it pays off to spend more in a COLT or SW.
it ist truth that some affordable clones are great. For instance, my Taurus Gaucho shoots better, with any load, than my Uberti. In general, I dont trust italian clones for top results, they take me more effort to get good loads than other clones, like german, belgian, or spanish (The Remington 1858 made by Santa Barbara in spanish arsenal OVIEDO was far more accurate than any UBERTI or Pietta I had and with better steel).
anyway, I just share my experience with american made products, not being myself the most pro USA man in this part of the world, as many of you know, I must admit that I prefer to pay more for the MADE IN USA. I´ve been selling some american western type holsters here, with the MADE IN USA on them (well, on the box) and people buy them just because of that. They read the "made in USA", and buy it blindly, not only this product, but all in general, cars the exception.
where does this phenomenon come from? I think that it comes from the early 1900´s, when americans won a deserved fame for being great machinists, making tools that lasted and were really well made. I suppose that WW2 helped too.
it is interesting that Italians, however, are known as great designers here, though not famous for making cars that last.....the british are famous however for supreme quality, from chocolate to cars, and the germans, for more or less the same. It is obvious that when you buy something, you buy more than a tool...you buy an invesment and a name.
in some cases, like COLT or SW, the fame is justified and the higher price too.
PD:
The japanese are known for making clones better than the original.... ;D ;D ;D
Twitchy is right, you can talk, scratch your head, test and compare, and write pages on your discoveries but if you want to buy USA made and want the most dependable gun made then the obvious choice is a Ruger.
I've had Colts break, S&W's break, Uberti's break, Peitta's break, seen problems with the Gaucho, the list goes on. The Ruger's hands down are the toughest most dependable guns made and I've never owned one that didn't shoot good.
I prefer to shoot a SAA in CAS because they are more historically accurate but it never hurts to have a Ruger with you. The last gun running will be a Ruger, they are built like a tank.
Quote from: RickB on March 05, 2013, 05:28:06 PM
Please tell me what parts of a Harley are made outside the USA. Sure some parts are like some electronic parts, but I'll bet that many American motorcycle and car manufacturers do the same.
I keep hearing this claim but I would like to see some proof and percentages. I don't wish to hijack the thread but I am interested in seeing this statement clarified and backed up.
From a search I just did it seems the percentage is that 80% of a Harley is American made. I don't consider the remaining 20% that to be "a large part of the motorcycle ". Only HD can confirm or deny this.
HD should say American assembled, not American made.
Front fork assembly is Showa, Japan
Rear shocks Showa Japan,
Brake systems, Nissin, or Brembo, Japan or Italy
Some wheels, Australia, http://www.bikernewsonline.com/2007/03/harley-wheels-made-in-australia.htm
most electonics and lights, Japan and some China,
Some parts of Fuel Injection system, Japan.
Ok I wont say "a large part of the Motorcycle", but I don't wont drink the coolade.
My Honda 1800 VTX was assembled at the Honda plant in Marysville Ohio, by Americans, and has "Made in the USA" on the back of the seat in white letters. It also has Showa, Nissin, and other Japaneese parts, from the same companies that supply HD with some parts. So HD is "All American" and my Honda is Japanese American.
Hickok, are you serious? Do you believe what you wrote?
For one thing I expect you to post some proof (links or other proof) to backup what you say. Outside of other Harley bashers that is.
So you are trying to compare a bike that is 100% Japanese made (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Where_are_Honda_motorcycles_made), where the prices paid for the bike go back to Japan to support Japan's economy and pay for Japanese corporations is as American made as a Harley is. A Harley might use some parts made outside of the USA, but less than 20% even by your admission. Harley's are 80% made of American parts. The motor, transmission, frame, Tanks, Fenders, Seats, and much of the bike are made in one of the 3 Harley plants here in America. The price paid for their motorcycles stays in America and helps Americans and our economy.
I suspect that if you look at the majority of American cars and motorcycles you'll see that they all use parts from foreign manufacturers, but the majority of their parts are made right here in America.
You might not believe that you've been tasting the Koolaid but you are in fact drinking it quite a bit. I suspect the flavor is Sour Grapes. Your opinion of HD is based on you trying to justify buying a metric bike and not an American one. Listen, I don't care what you ride. Most don't. But I dislike metric bike riders slamming American made companies just to justify their own purchases. My step brother does the same thing. He rides a Honda Goldwing and feels it necessary to justify that by slamming HD. He's repeated the same Urban legends of HD being "assembled in America" and not anymore American made than his own Honda.
According to USA Today, Honda has ended it's assembly of motorcycles in America. So from 2009 all Honda motorcycles are made in Japan and imported to the USA. So there goes that myth that they are American made. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-02-27-honda-motorcycles_N.htm
As long as you ride then you're good by me. But when you start slamming an American company to make it sound like they are no more American than a foreign made product then you cross the line in my book.
Be happy with what you ride or shoot or drive. If you feel it necessary to tear down another product to build up your own feelings about what you bought then you must not really feel all that happy with your purchase.
I've owned a Honda before as well as a Vespa (back in the day) and I never had to rip into someone for their bike choice to make myself feel better. At the time I couldn't afford a better bike. I owned a 250 Honda Rebel. Loved it. Fun bike. I moved up to a 1996 Harley sportster. After riding that for 10+ years I bought a 2008 Harley Springer Crossbones. Love that bike. I still own the Sporty and ride it for short hops.
You just can't beat the American made bikes for quality (yes, over 80% of the bike is American made and they are the most important parts of the bike). The metal is thicker and stronger because steel is harder to come by in Japan. From what I remember they don't have much of a steel industry and have to rely on buying steel from countries like America and others to produce their cars and bikes. Don't believe me, just tap on a metric bikes tank or fenders and then on an American bikes equal parts. Plus a good number of the metric bikes parts are aluminum or plastic. Some parts on the metric bike look metal but are in fact plastic. I know. I've owned them and so do a number of my friends. They are happy with them and don't feel a need to slam the competition. They are happy with and proud of their decisions.
The Marysville plant was closed a few years back and it was predominately Tooled for the 1300, 1800 VTX and Goldwing. My VTX is a 2002. It was assembled in Ohio.
You can't say GM, Ford, or any other vehicle is "All American" and HD cannot say it. Harley Davidson is the one who needs to back up what they say with proof. Im not slamming any bike makers. I've been riding dirt and street since the late '60.
Go to some HD forums and do a search, about foreign parts on HDs.
I don't care what anyone rides either, but I don't buy the boast of HD being "all American." I have friends who ride all makes and this subject is always a sore spot for one brand owner or the other.
The HD V-Rod engine has some German Porche engineering.
HD was "all Italian" under AMF in years gone by before the companies parted ways.
Lots of scources on the web, but this is a just a quick one http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111126105511AAW3xFe
The scource is listed as HD Master Tech and engine builder
I wont argue this subject because it nevers goes anywhere between the metric and HD opinions. Ride free and ride safe!
I am going say it again, I never said that Colt or other American brands were not better, or not worth the extra money. How people come to these conclusions after reading my posts, putting words in my mouth, I cannot stand.
I WILL say this though: For the money, there is NOTHING wrong with any of the firearms you seem to be so deadset against. And for the price I would have paid for ONE Colt revolver, I ended up with all of my SASS Match Gear. How is this a bad plan? How is this a bad thing?
AND: Even if the firearms are not what I "Should" be using, does anyone ever really NEED an excuse to buy more guns?
SO.
Let's do a quick recap, to make sure I'm absolutely clear: Colt is cream of the crop, but not everyone has money for them. If you can't afford one, or can't afford a pre-1964 Winchester, or can't afford AMERICAN firearms, then get the clones. Sure, they're not as fit or whatever, but they go bang every time you pull the trigger, and they're decent quality.
The BEST gun is the one you have on you when you need it.
PERIOD.
And I could tell you how my Ubertis have given me consistent accuracy within the parameters of each load every time I've shot 'em. It's never been an issue for me, and I've put quite a few rounds through 'em.
Back in the day, yeah-there were some QC issues. Today? Not so much. They're some of the better SASS guns out of the box, and they do what they're supposed to do.
They're accurate, and compete on par with Colt for SASS.
I'll tell you a dirty little secret: Accuracy is 90% the shooter. My da can take any gun, so long as it's got a straight barrel, and hit anything he aims at. Even a cheap little Saturday Night Special. The gun don't make the shooter-the shooter makes the gun.
But, I weary of this conversation, you strike me as a contrarian, and while the conversation was interesting enough to start with, you've moved into a predictable pattern-no matter what I say about any firearm, if I'm not singing the praises of Colt or Ruger, you're going to bash whatever it is I've got to say. So, to that end, MY end of this conversation is over. You've your opinion, and you're welcome to it, but I'm tired of discussing it with you.
Enjoy.
SIX GUN,
well, I have no problem admitting that my last 2 posts were not neccesary. As a proof of respect, I have deleted them.
sorry for the inconvenience and please accept my excuses. Every one is entitled to his/her opinions.
all the best
Getting back to the original intent of this post, guns, where they come from and how much they cost... before I spent $1000 for a Miroku Winchester I'd buy an original. I can get '92's or Marlin 89's at estate auctions for $1000 or less. They still shoot and will appreciate in value.
As for the Harley's, I ride a 1975 FLH. It was the last year for the American built glide front fork and has a Bendix carb. Only thing is if I need parts they are usually made in China now.
Before you talk too loudly about where a product is made, you might want to consider the following.
Who owns the company;
Where does the machinery that the product is made on, come from;
Where does the raw material, like iron ore come from.
If buying by country is good, then buying by state must be better and buying locally is even still better.
Following this line of reasoning, the best is to make everything yourself.
One of the reasons for the Great Depression was the trade barriers that countries put up to protect local business, look how that worked out.
The word enjoys its present level of civilization because of trade.
Trade is something that has been going on since the old stone age (Lower Paleolithic), that is where people did make almost everything they needed.
I agree, but in the case of Chinese imports, etc, you are harming your economy, by buying their products. They dont care about the environment, and pay miserable wages.....and your industry just cant compete in those inhuman conditions of manufacturing....in other words, it is not fair trade at all.
in the case of PAKISTAN made products...like some leather goods I have seen for sale in the USA, you are financing ALKAEDA... so it does matter where things are made, specially if they come from countries that support international terrorism or just pay miserable wages to their people and contaminate.
in the european, american case, good wages are paid, and all goods are manufactured according to strict environment rules, so by buying Italian, german or spanish, for instance, you are really practising "fair trade". You buy from them, they buy from you, as they dont compete playing dirty tricks, like Chinese do, where workers dont enjoy holidays, work 12 hours a day for 200 dollar a month, and cant even defend their rights by joining a trade union or even go on strike.
it does matter the country you are buying from. For your country well being, dont buy chinese unless you just cant find and alternative..and please keep buying european..... ;D ;D ;D ;D as we´ll happily keep buying your great SWs, Rugers or Colts here...
in fact, we are negociating some masive imports of american goods here...(and still some accuse here me of antiamericanism!)...
there is a Free trade agreement project between USA and the European Union that might benefit both economic regions, and that might let us buy many american goods here, that as I said, are much sought after, not only guns, but foods, tools (american tools are very well regarded overseas), clothes, even some sport cars...etc.
I am now shooting uberti's. uberti rifles and uberti revolvers. I tried Colt SA's 20 years ago and I just wasn't happy with them. I used to shoot Ruger SA'a(three screw) and they were ok, but lately the SA rugers are crap. Strong, yes, very, shoot to point of aim. "NOT" I picked up a collection of SA Rugers in .45 LC and .38/357 there were five altogether. also there were two Tarus SA's in .38/357. the Tarus shot to point of aim. none of the Rugers shot to point of aim. I've picked up several SA uberti's lately in all of the cowboy calibers and they all shot to point of aim. yes, Im talking about 32-20, 38-40, 44-40, 44 special, .45LC and .45 schofield. there is a opentop "colt" in .44 special and it's special to me.(very accurate) there is a schofield in .45 LC and it's a fine shooter and shoots to point of aim.(Russian model). No, I do not push any of these pistols. 6 gr.s of trail boss in every thing above the 32-20 and four gr.s of TB in .38 special and/or 32-20. same load for the rifles. I picked up some of the pedersoli "lighting" rifles. the one i'm shooting in .44-40 is accurate and reliable I 'm also shooting a spencer in .45 schofield. it does have it quirts but it's a lot of fun also. so I think I"m getting the best bang for my buck with the ubertis(rifle or pistol). but there are a couple of older marlins that are fine guns(ok, they are in .45-70 cal. ) and one model 57(figure that one out) no, it's no longer made and mines not for sale.
Now, you are right about the S&W's. I have two of each "N" frame cal. you can't beat the .41 mag. with a 6 inch barrel. but I do have a couple of the Hertiage models and they are sweet! and accurate. Of course you can't hardly beat the 586/686 ones either good trigger and very, very accurate. and I love my model 544 in .44-40. (yes, It's a shooter)
Excellent post! That's right- the country of origin matters. Now it matters to me that my guns will be the highest quality I could afford so Colt, original Winchester etc must be from USA. I can care less if my boxers say Taiwan or China on them.
But guns are guns. Shoot the rest but try to get originals. I made few offers for New Haven made Winchester. Colt's are on gunbroker in variety.
Bear
QuoteOn the same note, Hi-Point firearms are mostly crap. It's hit and miss with them. You can get one that works great, no worries-and sure, get a matching carbine to go with it, why not? But you've also got the issue of it may not work at all, right out of the box. They're made right here in the US of A.
I have owned/own High Point arms made weapons, Ugly yes, P.O.S. No. I have never had a problem with any of the High Point Arms weapons I have or have owned. They are Made in The US with a lifetime Warranty.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/01/03/handgun_reviews_hipoint_100605/
This is from High Points web Site.
The Hi-Point Warranty
All Hi-Point firearms carry a lifetime, "no-questions asked warranty." Whether you are the original purchaser, or the third-hand owner, your Hi-Point firearm will be repaired free of charge.
Find another Gun Maker that will do that.
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Quote from: Major 2 on March 03, 2013, 06:15:50 PMColt is dead, has been since 1862 "Colt makes his SAA´s in the US"
.
" Uberti does not make SAAs for COLT, ( never said it did ) but COLT makes his own revolver in the USA. "
Colt is owned by Donald Zilkha Co. Jewish Iraqi Citizen
For the record , I was refering to the Colt C&B's & BP series , no myth , Colt used some Uberti parts in the 2nd Gen. Guns.
Colt by the way , did not make the 3rd gen. the late Lou Imperato was the force behind them, he simply had an agreement with Colt.
Mr. Imperato also founded Henry Repeting Arms, his son Anthony is the CEO of HRA.
Colt will letter 2nd Gens., It does not letter 3 Gens.
FYI The same British Holding Co. that bought Smith & Wesson also controled Taurus... Taurus was able to buy out.
S&W was almost lost, and was sold back to an American at a great financial loss to the Holding company.
"MADE in USA is still for many of us, a guarantee of a well made product, specially when it comes to tools"
Thank you for that :)
I believe you've said you are a Spanish citizen ? :)
When I wrote this 12 years ago, Colt was in or near bankruptcy,
Now 2025 COLT is owned by CZ.
Marlin owned by Ruger (with short stop at Remington)
Remington/Freedom Arms went belly up and sold to Ruger...
Taurus owns Freedom Arms & Heritage Arms. now.
Taurus USA operations is in Bainbridge Ga.
My $0.02
Fist SASS rifle was a circa 1994 Rossi 92 carbine in 44 mag $340 at gun show in El Paso. Bore slugged .434,.435 depending on how slug measure. Pretty sure they drilled the bore at .429 and then rifled it. With hard cast bullets key-holed at 25 yards. desparado bullets being a much softer alloy 20:1 I think shot round holes at 100 and about 4 inch groups with 50 y/0 ish eyes. My second was purchased from Nate Kiowa Jones guru of the 92 a 24 inch octo barreled 44 Mag rifle (stock 3/4 longer LOP than carbine) in 2005. It has the proper sized bore and was slicked up by NKJ prior to shipment $850. Great gun the longer LOP is at the max length for this 5' 6" inch fat not gorilla armed cowboy. Very easy to short stroke vs the shorter carbine. Liking the slickness scheduled with NKJ a slot, when if finally got email to send it the rifle was back in my hands in less than 10 days super slick. My next 92 was purchased about 5 or 6 years ago sight unseen from a ST. Louis Cabella's a Miroku 44 Mag carbine. Was brought in to the Glendale AZ Cabela's no shipping charge as was store transfer. Fit and finish much better than the Rossi. Was quite surprised when it arrived with the large loop lever (not at all suitable for CAS) Called Browning and $158 lighter and a few weeks later had the regular lever. Swapped out easily but being an idiot neglected to transfer the plunger that keeps lever closed which actually has other functions so the gun would not shoot reliably screwed around and managed to break the hammer strut. Not to worry Winter Range was upon us gave the gun to Lassiter who got it working and brought to me next Winter Range, me being too cheap to pay postage to get it sooner and having two other 92s. Lassiter gave it to me and said the lever does not lock closed and is missing the plunger. No problem gave him the large look lever with plunger and took him about 5 min to transfer all is good. Out of the box the Miroku 92 was much smoother than the out of box Rossi but not as slick as the NKJ worked guns. After Lassiter's touch on par with NKJ magic worked guns. My final to date 92 is a Miroku .357 carbine. Was quite difficult to load 10 max length .357 mag 158 SWC bullets in to magazine. Rattle Snake Slim having the same rifle told me to cut off about 2 inches of mag tube spring. Now takes 10 rounds easily. To its credit the rifle feeds the 158 SWCs just fine, I do put a decent roll crimp so there is a slight radius on case mouth Vs sharp edge to scrape top of cylinder. Carbine shoots very well and in a recent test at Ben Avery was able to hit targets at 100 and 135 yards with .38 spec level loads in a .357 mag case.
Overall the Miroku 92s are much nicer than the rossi's I got the .357 for $999 of Gun broker 3 or 4 months ago. The 44 Mag Cabela's gun was $1200 in 2018 when Miroku 92s were virtually impossible to find anywhere. The Japanese make great guns love the Miroku 92s and my 6.5 Creedmore Weatherby Vanguard (think Howa 1500) shot sub MOA at 200 yards out of the box with Hornady Precision Hunter ammo.
Having said that you will not be disappointed with a Brazilian Rossi or the Turkish Heritage rifles they will require a bit of slicking. The newer Rossi 92s are much better out of the box than they were 20 years ago. The Turks make great guns having 3 CV shotguns and a Tisas Carry a turkish made 1911 Commander with ambi safety all with excellent fit and finish.