I am curious as to how many NCOWS shooters are using percussion shotguns in matches? Wasnt common years ago when I was shooting a lot, have many shooters begun to use them?
We have 2 or 3 shooters in the N Texas area that show up with percussion scatterguns. One shooter, Greysmoke out at the Texas Peacemakers shoots one at just about every match.
If the proposed class changes are approved, there won't be a class for those of us who want to shoot these shotguns.
If I recall correctly (big if), a percussion shotgun is what is supposed to be used in the Pistoleer Class, but we allow cartridge twice-shooters.
Books
Quote from: Books OToole on February 13, 2013, 11:47:37 AM
If I recall correctly (big if), a percussion shotgun is what is supposed to be used in the Pistoleer Class, but we allow cartridge twice-shooters.
Books
Actually, By-Law 10-1 specifically states percussion or cartridge.
Harley,
While a percussion shotgun is legal to use in any NCOWS shooting category that uses a shotgun, it is only the Pistoleer class that you would be on equal footing with other competitors in your class. In all other classes you would have take the misses for any more that 2 rounds or reload which in my opinion would not be a practical option.
Yuma
it looks like the new proposed class structure does not show a shotgun at all in the pisoleer class, or does it?
Quote from: Dynamite Bill on February 13, 2013, 07:40:52 PM
it looks like the new proposed class structure does not show a shotgun at all in the pisoleer class, or does it?
That will be most unfortunate :(. I was REALLY looking forward to pistoleer with a percussion shotgun... I'm also wondering if a revolving carbine is legal so I could shoot 4 percussion guns :)
-Mad Dog
Quote from: Yuma Kid on February 13, 2013, 12:26:36 PM
Harley,
While a percussion shotgun is legal to use in any NCOWS shooting category that uses a shotgun, it is only the Pistoleer class that you would be on equal footing with other competitors in your class. In all other classes you would have take the misses for any more that 2 rounds or reload which in my opinion would not be a practical option.
Yuma
Yuma is correct , and as OT pointed out By-law 10-1....
It is also correct that the current
proposed change would take any SXS out of Pistoleer.
I'm with Mad_Dog that would be unfortunate. :(
CCC has two shooters using a front stuffer in Pistoleer.
AS to :
"I'm also wondering if a revolving carbine is legal so I could shoot 4 percussion guns"I would assume you mean the Remington revolving 1866 Replica ? :-\
It is neather approved or listed on disapproved lists....
Your
1st. issue is the only 5 shots ( load 5 of 6 rule ) most stages require 9-10 or more shots ( with reloads )
2nd. You would have to submit documentation written or period photos show providence along with your request for approval to
The National Judge who along with his authenticity committee for a formal review...
FYI - I am the current National Judge , so you could forward your request to me ...my email is posted.
I just wish the Front stuffing shotguns were cheaper! Every other Italian clone is real reasonable. I kick myself for passing up a nice 12 gauge percussion side by side for $200, included a pound of powder and shot. I was $ poor at the moment. Ug.
I like the revolving carbines, but I have never seen documentation with them being used in the west. I know that many were converted of the limited production. I like my 1860 colt army with a shoulder stock that is a nice shooter. Currently the stock is on one of those brass framed buffalo remingtons, it is scarily accurate.
Quote from: Major 2 on February 14, 2013, 01:30:42 AM
1st. issue is the only 5 shots ( load 5 of 6 rule ) most stages require 9-10 or more shots ( with reloads )
The Spencer shares this problem, though I suspect cartridges are alot easier to handle for an on-the-clock reload than caps are!
Quote
2nd. You would have to submit documentation written or period photos show providence along with your request for approval to
The National Judge who along with his authenticity committee for a formal review...
Wow, sounds like I've got some homework to do! I'm assuming the evidence of it's availability (remington catalog, etc) would not suffice, and it's actual presence in the old west would need to be verified?
thanks!
-Mad Dog
Remington catalog ( either original , copied from the original ) is providence...
Also #'s produced or delivered, perhaps a period photo with one in the subject matter.
An original account I:E: letter of use , or order(s) for one.
any two of above will help your petition....What will not work is Film providence such as use as props in "Man with no name" Films & Lonesome Dove"
This is from Flaydermans Guide (providence BTW)
Revolving Percussion RIFLE made c. 1866-1879, total quantity estimated at less that 1,000. Caliber .36 and .44 with barrels of 24" and 28" standard.
Although built on the frame of the NEW MODEL revolver series, the cylinder is 3/16" longer that the New Model Army revolver. It also has a special extra long length loading lever which is an important feature in identifying authentic specimens.
Should you find your proof ,
You still left with 5 Round count ( course you could change Cylinders on the clock )
Quote from: Yuma Kid on February 13, 2013, 12:26:36 PM
Harley,
While a percussion shotgun is legal to use in any NCOWS shooting category that uses a shotgun, it is only the Pistoleer class that you would be on equal footing with other competitors in your class. In all other classes you would have take the misses for any more that 2 rounds or reload which in my opinion would not be a practical option.
Yuma
Well, anyone that knows me will know that my shooting skills give me a distinct disadvantage anyway!! BUT.............I look damned good whilst I am a-missin!!!!!!!!!!!!! Most all of my past awards were for lookin purty......, well, okay, my lovely wife Patience, got the awards fer looking good and I just happened to be standin next to her!!!!
Maybe I will go back to my first thought for style points and start to load brass shot hulls.
I have produced paper cartridges for percussion shotguns. They work if you have nothing better, LIKE A CARTRIDGE GUN, a bit less time-consuming to load but still not up to a 10-10-4 stand and deliver.
I did it after researching some gunfights in British Columbia in 1862.
1. The bad guys fueding over control of the saloons in Stud Horse Creek, were confronted by the miners committee armed with shotguns. One bad guy had pulled a Dragoon on the other but only took off his ear finger. The other guy named "Yeast Powder Bill" finished the job properly, was arrested for murder but was acquited at trial the next day by the newly arrived Magistrate on the basis of self-defence. He was then run outta town! The shot guns were not fired.
2. In a different incident a horse thief named "One Eared Charlie". (In his previous career as a bootlegger in Victoria he was shot by a jail guard - thus suffering the loss of his ear & dignity.) When caught by a posse including the rancher, Charlie shot the only BC Consable in the area. He was chased by a posse of shotgun armed miners across the line heading to Bonner's Ferry. He was ambushed by the miners and filled full of buckshot as he charged them with his Dragoon blazing.
I patterned my Navy Arms 12 gauge, loaded with .31 roundball poured from a LEE mould, at 25 yards. Both left and right covered a one-foot circle. (Don't castigate me too much for boasting!)
I thought I had posted my procedures before but a quick search didn't help. I will look around again but if anyone wishes I will PM them my write-up.
Here it is; http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,8870.msg106431.html#msg106431
Quote from: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on February 14, 2013, 10:14:08 AM
. . .The other guy named "Yeast Powder Bill"
I'd love to know the origin of that name. Perhaps one too many visits to the "bargain basement" sporting houses?
Quote from: Pancho Peacemaker on February 14, 2013, 10:18:51 AM
I'd love to know the origin of that name. Perhaps one too many visits to the "bargain basement" sporting houses?
I've wondered. This fellow travelled to BC from the Northern Plains, around Walla Walla & Fort Colville. A review of the Black Hills gold play might show him. Many of our characters during the 1858 goldrush were American but I've never seriously tried to track down their antecedents.
Here's another thought on ol' Yeast Powder Bill. Yeast powder is used in making beer, could be that Bill was a good beer maker and/or beer drinker and hence the nickname of Yeast Powder Bill. Things was called different things back in the day. Whiskey was called "bug juice" and here is a Canadian connect for you. Fort Hamilton (near Lethbridge Alberta) was built in 1869 and came to be called Fort Whoop-Up. Evidently this moniker is derived from the bull whackers getting the bulltrains moving with bull-whips, a process called "whooping them up". A couple of fellers concoted Whoop-up Bug Juice and sold it right out of the fort to the Blackfoot Indians who were called "Bugs Boys" by trapper Joe Meeker (originally he called them Beelzebub's Boys meaning "Sons of the Devi" but it got shortened up a bit). Whoop-up Bug Juice was made from alcohol spiked with ginger, molasses & red peppers. Colored black with chewing tobacco, wattered down and boiled and became true "fire water"!!! Sounds like some mighty tasty stuff. So, maybe Yeast Powder Bill was related to the bootleg business? Just wonderin...........
What is with the constant messing with shooting catagories/classes?
I understand that NCOWS is based on more historical accuracy then SASS, but I feel it can go too far. I shoot pistoleer and just got a hammered gun to be total gun legal. I see no reason to drop shotgun from the class. I like shooting 4 guns.
On the other hand, requiring a percussion shotgun would not be affordable and exclude me from shooting any regional or above match.
I guess I am wondering is NCOWS becoming more a reenactment group with some shooting as a sideline?
I enjoy the historical accuracy that NCOWS offers. I shoot SASS and NCOWS. I have been in both for awhile. I joined both mostly for the shooting aspect. I was glad when the oppertunity came to help form a posse near by. In fact, I enjoy my NCOWS matches more as time goes on.
I made paperboard cartridge boxes, use no gun cart, use brass shotgun shells, try to hide modern materials and such. So a historical element is no problem.
I accept the two or three gun classes as an attempt at historical correctness and the benefits it provides to cut costs for folks on tight budgets and newcomers.
But I think we are nearing a philosopical line we may not want to cross.
I like the rest of the class restructuring proposal and based on the two polls NCOWS conducted it seems like most wanted some changes. I have no idea why the shotgun was dropped from Pistoleer. I hope the proposal can be amended to leave Pistoleer alone and adopt the rest of the proposal.
Quote from: bowiemaker on February 15, 2013, 02:29:00 PM
I like the rest of the class restructuring proposal and based on the tow polls NCOWS conducted it seems like most wanted some changes. I have no idea why the shotgun was dropped from Pistoleer. I hope the proposal can be amended to leave Pistoleer alone and adopt the rest of the proposal.
My understanding is the proposals were based on what a majority of folks voted for in the 2 surveys.
Quote from: Capt. JEB Forrest on February 15, 2013, 02:08:35 PM
On the other hand, requiring a percussion shotgun would not be affordable and exclude me from shooting any regional or above match.
I dont believe that a percussion shotgun is REQUIRED but can be used if the shooter wanted to in lieu of a breechloader. No advantage whatsoever, but huge style points. That was one of the ideas in the founding of NCOWS, shooting for history & style. That is what attracted me to NCOWS as compared to SASS. Nothing against a feller that is a fast & accurate shooter, but back in the day, the fellers I shot with never cared what our scores were. Personally, I was more concerned about trying to win the Best Dressed trophy!!! Granted, I have been away from the game for 10 years, but I certainly hope NCOWS has not turned into a points race.
The Pistoleer class as is now only fire two shotgun shots per stage, no matter how many everyone else is required to shoot. This is so that they do not have to reload. As they may shoot either an exposed hammer percussion or cartridge shotgun. Questions 7 and 8 on survey 2 addressed this. Celeste
Because the survey results indicated a desire to drop the shotgun, that in itself is not necessarily going to happen. It is my understanding that the Committee output is a suggestion, and like any proposal, may be modified from the floor. I personally will (if no one else does it) call for that part of the proposal to be amended. I spoke with the committee chair, and he is open to changing that line in the class proposal to leaving Pistoleer as it currently is. Shooting that category is a lot of fun with either cartridge or percussion shotguns. I don't want to see it changed.
I also am not in favor of changing Pistoleer.
I am curious if the ad hoc committee took in consideration the votes of the current members that have already been shooting pistoleer or based the decision on the whole tally.
While I personally would shoot the pistoleer without the shotgun I don't know that it is wise to eliminate the pistoleer class as it has been. By doing so we alienate the percussion shotguns.
I too just purchased a hammered shotgun so I could shoot pistoleer from time to time.
Brian , Just so you know I will second your " call for that part of the proposal to be amended "
but only should you beat me to "call for the amendment" ;)
Now yur talkin", uh typeing I mean.
This is really why I was intially wondering if anyone was competiting with percussion doublebarrels. Pistoleer is a great class as it is, whether percussion or breechloader, two rounds is two rounds and no real advantage to either shotgun. Unless you drop your percussion cap. Bit slower at the loading table perhaps but in any case, there are plenty of shooting classes for those that do not shoot percussion (shotgun & revolver) so I would hope that Pistoleer is left as is. I do not have a percussion shotgun at the moment but am comtemplating it in the future. Like others have posted, passed up a couple of $200 percussions a few years back, wish I wouldnt have. Hard to justify the $700-$800 Pedersoli.
First of all, I hope everyone who is voicing their opinion here took the time to complete both surveys.
Second, to address the quiry about voting, there was no attempt made to seperate responses by a member's preference of shooting classes. For example, everyone had the oppotunity to vote on the Originals class even though very few members participate in that class. Similarly, everyone voted on the C & B classes even though not every responder shoots in the current Pistoleer class.
What you are voicing here is the Pistoleers dissatisfaction with the elimination of the shotgun from the C & B class. That is well and good. I would encourage those of you who shoot Pistoleer to contact other Pistoleers. you need to inform your Senators and Posse Reps of your request(s).
At the Congress meeting two years ago the Originals class was amended. There were those of us who believed that the participants in the Originals class should be the ones to decide on the issue. Many of us abstained in the voting. I do not hesitate to inform you that mine was the deciding vote and the Originals got what they wanted.
I say this because I personally feel the same about the Pistoleers. The goal of the process was to develop a structure that would encourage NCOWS growth. For that reason the motion was based on what the vast majority of NCOWS members had selected as their choice to achieve that goal. It may well be that in this one class the majority is out of sinc with the desires of the actual participants in Pistoleer. If that is case then rather than encourage growth, NCOWS could possibly lose members. Again, if that is the case, then that section of the survey can and should be amended.
The committee members have no "pride of authorship" problems. Our goal remains the growth of NCOWS. If this new structure, amended or not, is successful in growing NCOWS membership, then the efforts of the committee and those of the members who responded will have been worthwhile.
Ted Beechler
Ad Hoc Committee Chair
Ted "Cole" is correct .... I clearly remember the Original Vote and how that went....
Pistoleer's need to stand up & together to save their SXS , or surely apathy may allow unwanted changes.
Sadly, many did not respond , by doing so you allow the tail to wag the Dog .
Same as the Senate elections....
Pistoleer's & everyone make you concerns known , contact your Possi Rep. and Senators, get you message across on all the Agenda(s).
Involved NCOWS Member is a strong NCOWS ...
"He steps off the soap box now " ( Oh! and my email & PM are posted )
The survey asked all respondents to answer yes or no regarding shotguns in the Pistoleer class. I suspect many who answered may not have ever shot Pistoleer and did not understand why the class and why it is structured the way it is.
I could count myself in that camp. I honestly do not remember how I answered that question but since I have never shot in the class I never gave it much thought and did not fully understand that it was the only class that really accommodated percussion shotguns because it does not allow reloads.
We are having dinner meeting tonight with possi members , to discuss the agenda and possi imput :)
I might suggest other possi's do something simlar at some point before the Convention
Our shoot, Mar 2, would then be the last change for CCC members to be heard in person to our Rep. & myself .
Update to original posting. I fell into the Dark Pool and picked up an old Navy Arms 12ga front stuffer. Guess we shall see if I am the only one on the firing up North here, with one of these beasts.
I did not vote as I am an "Alone Ranger" who has never fired an NCOWS match. As I see it now, and the uniqueness of the pistoleer class, I would strongly cast my support towards preserving the class as it is.
My match shotgun currently is a Husqvarna underlever, a design from the late 1860s. It would fit right in - as a spare to my Navy Arms percussion gun.
I foolishly allowed an old Belgian damascus barrel 12ga. Double barrel , pass out of my hands , years ago.
It was in very good cond. but at the time, I was concerned about the barrels ...
Ah foolish me, the new owner was a aircraft mechanic, and maganfluxed them , they passed.
Course he only reenacted SIW so it only saw loose powder for the BOOM.
I bought it for $100 and sold it for $175 as I recall ...oh well that was 30 yeras ago ::)
Quote from: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on February 25, 2013, 02:19:44 PM
My match shotgun currently is a Husqvarna underlever, a design from the late 1860s. It would fit right in - as a spare to my Navy Arms percussion gun.
Ohhh, I had one of these some years ago. As so many of us have done, I sold for $50 more than I paid for..........doing some great business (I thought). In retrospect, kinda stupid. It went with my 60 gun collection of pre-1895 firearms. Uff.
I'm to blame...I'm one of those who responded to the survey and voted against keeping shotgun in Pistoleer class.
I have shot Pistoleer as my predominate class at National Matches since about 1998, having missed perhaps three National Matches.... and hope to participate again someday (Lord willing & I can still obtain percussion caps). While I enjoy shooting shotguns as much as anyone, I believe removing from the class improves authenticity and reduces the logistics battle and workload for someone already managing at least two percussion revolvers.
However, If any additional consideration is given to the matter, I will be pleased to follow the wishes of fellow shooters who shoot or plan to shoot in this category.
Slim
So, am I understanding this correctly? The shotgun has been eliminated from the Pistoleer class?
Quote from: harleydavis on March 01, 2013, 04:15:52 PM
So, am I understanding this correctly? The shotgun has been eliminated from the Pistoleer class?
That has been proposed; but the Congress has not yet voted on it. The vote will happen two weeks from tonight.
Books
Oh rats. That would be a bummer after I went through the contusions of finding a percussion double. I realize I am only one feller and truth be told, I havent shot competition in some years, so, who am I to say. guess I understand the reasoning behind it and there is logic alright. Still, a bummer. Oh well, guess I can find someone to buy the ole front stuffing scattergun if I cant use it.
Quote from: harleydavis on March 01, 2013, 09:59:36 PM
Oh rats. That would be a bummer after I went through the contusions of finding a percussion double. I realize I am only one feller and truth be told, I havent shot competition in some years, so, who am I to say. guess I understand the reasoning behind it and there is logic alright. Still, a bummer. Oh well, guess I can find someone to buy the ole front stuffing scattergun if I cant use it.
Don't get rid of it yet. The Congress may not vote that way.
Books
Harley
THAT OLE FRONT STUFFER MAKES FOR A REAL TURKEY KILLER .
Question?
Would a stage scenario be considered equal (makes no difference how the SxS shot gun was loaded) if the scenario only allowed two shot gun targets during the stage?
Blair
The current "Pistoleer" class which requires two cap & ball pistols, a rifle and shotgun all loaded with BP, does limit the number of shotgun rounds per stage to two rounds. That class is where the muzzleloading shotguns are typically used.
If I remember Pistoleer rules correctly, it limited the number of shotgun rounds to just 2 rounds in a stage. It did not matter if the shooter was using breech loader or muzzleloader. If a feller wanted to use it in another class requiring more than two rounds, you would have to take the misses in your score. Percussion aint fast, just style points.
Down sizing the number of rounds is easier for the breach loaders than it is to expect a reload for the muzzle stuffers and still be able to keep the competition competitive for all the shooters. Especially in a "Classification" where Muzzle stuffers are allowed!
Adjusting the rounds in a given Stage Scenario is best to keep things competitive. Otherwise, delete the muzzle stuffer "Classification" altogether from the competition.
Just my thoughts on this subject,
The criteria for Pistoleer hasn't changed since it's introduction (to the best of my memory):
Men's and Women's Pistoleer: Shooters are restricted to the use of percussion revolvers, pre-1873 percussion or original/authentic reproductions of rimfire cartridge pocket pistols, exposed-hammer double-barrel shotguns (percussion or cartridge), and reproduction or original pre-1873 pistol-caliber repeating rifles (e.g. 1860 Henry, Spencer, 1866 Winchester, etc: Shooters must shoot blackpowder or approved blackpowder substitute powder in all firearms except those chambered for rimfire cartridges. Pistols and revolvers must be shot one-handed. Pistoleer shooters will shoot the same course of fire as the other competitors except that in a stage requiring more than two shotgun rounds the Pistoleer shooter would not be required to shoot the extra rounds.
Essentially, this means Pistoleer will only fire two shotgun rounds per stage...no-one has ever been disadvantaged by loading the ML shotgun in this class.
My experience has been limited only to NCOWS competition at the National Shoots...over the past years I've maybe seen four muzzleloading shotguns used in this class. So, I'd say the majority in this category have used breach loading hammer guns.
Slim
A little off topic here not pertaining to the shotgun but...... if someone proposes an amendment to the proposal on pistoleer.... I would also recommend specifying the pre 1873 type rifle as well. If passed the way the proposal is written it could allow later model rifles changing pistoleer even more.
Good point Cliff. I failed to notice that.
The pre 1873 rifle requirement makes sense to me.
Quote from: Montana Slim on March 06, 2013, 04:52:58 PM
The criteria for Pistoleer hasn't changed since it's introduction (to the best of my memory):
Men's and Women's Pistoleer: Shooters are restricted to the use of percussion revolvers, pre-1873 percussion or original/authentic reproductions of rimfire cartridge pocket pistols, exposed-hammer double-barrel shotguns (percussion or cartridge), and reproduction or original pre-1873 pistol-caliber repeating rifles (e.g. 1860 Henry, Spencer, 1866 Winchester, etc: Shooters must shoot blackpowder or approved blackpowder substitute powder in all firearms except those chambered for rimfire cartridges. Pistols and revolvers must be shot one-handed. Pistoleer shooters will shoot the same course of fire as the other competitors except that in a stage requiring more than two shotgun rounds the Pistoleer shooter would not be required to shoot the extra rounds.
Essentially, this means Pistoleer will only fire two shotgun rounds per stage...no-one has ever been disadvantaged by loading the ML shotgun in this class.
My experience has been limited only to NCOWS competition at the National Shoots...over the past years I've maybe seen four muzzleloading shotguns used in this class. So, I'd say the majority in this category have used breach loading hammer guns.
Slim
Hey guys; read the bold print.
Books
That's why I mentioned it, Books. Making too many changes in that class gets away from it's intent.
As I see it... a person registers in Pistoleer Class, has all the correct arms and power to play/compete in a multi gun competition.
Now, what if a stage scenario calls for more than two shotgun rounds?
Doest the Pistoleer play in that scenario? (wouldn't be very competitive)
Or does he/she have to two shotguns, a ML and a BL. If they want to play/compete on an equal footing? (this maybe a great expense... and be out of reach for many participants)
Another words... how may firearms is anyone individual going to have to have if they wish to be reasonably competitive in any given scenario?
How about changing the scenarios to meet the arms/munitions, needs/limitations for ALL the classification allowed during any given multi gun shooting match?
Easier to change the number of rounds shot, than it is to build whole matches around a specific classification of shooting style.
Quote from: Blair on March 07, 2013, 01:49:37 PM
As I see it... a person registers in Pistoleer Class, has all the correct arms and power to play/compete in a multi gun competition.
Now, what if a stage scenario calls for more than two shotgun rounds?
Doest the Pistoleer play in that scenario? (wouldn't be very competitive)
Or does he/she have to two shotguns, a ML and a BL. If they want to play/compete on an equal footing? (this maybe a great expense... and be out of reach for many participants)
Another words... how may firearms is anyone individual going to have to have if they wish to be reasonably competitive in any given scenario?
How about changing the scenarios to meet the arms/munitions, needs/limitations for ALL the classification allowed during any given multi gun shooting match?
Easier to change the number of rounds shot, than it is to build whole matches around a specific classification of shooting style.
As in all the NCOWS Classes, a shooter only competes against those in the same class. So, say someone is in the Shootist Class and you are in the Pistoleer Class. The scenario calls for 4 (or more) shotgun targets. The Shootist has to shoot 4 (or more)shotgun targets. But the Pistoleer, by the rules set forth, only has to fire two. The other two shots are omitted for the Pistoleer. Most folks, when writing the scenarios, will have a note that says something like
"Pistoleer, omit all but two shotgun rounds, Working Cowboy omit second pistol and shotgun". That is still a fair arrangement, because the Pistoleer is only competing against other Pistoleers who have the same 2 shotgun round limitation. So, a single shotgun, cartridge or percussion, is all the Pistoleer needs. A Pistoleer only needs one pre-1973 Rifle, 1 SxS Shotgun with external hammers, and 2 percussion revolvers.
yeah, & a sense of humor. "cause them pistolas do not allways co-operate, from my "speriunce anyway.
Gee I really need to get back to shootin' with you all someday.....I give "Pistoleer" demonstrations for a very looow fee. ;D
Slim
Pistoleer being lumped together as a class also dont get penalized on a pistol reload either like they would if you were competing with C&B pistols in another BP class.
Quote from: Books OToole on March 01, 2013, 05:02:02 PM
That has been proposed; but the Congress has not yet voted on it. The vote will happen two weeks from tonight.
Books
Will you post the results of this vote so I dont have to wait for The Shootist delivery to learn the outcome? IMHO, too much is being played with in terms of categories. If you try to make a class for everyone that wants to shoot a certain way, pretty soon everyone will have their own category so we are all "winners". Leave the categories stand the way the founders set 'em. Just my 2 pennies worth.
If you always do what you have always done, you will always get what you always got. NCOWS needs to grow. Our income is down. If we plan to stay around changes are in order. Once again the proposed classes are what the members who responded asked for.
Quote from: harleydavis on March 08, 2013, 10:55:28 AM
Will you post the results of this vote so I dont have to wait for The Shootist delivery to learn the outcome? IMHO, too much is being played with in terms of categories. If you try to make a class for everyone that wants to shoot a certain way, pretty soon everyone will have their own category so we are all "winners". Leave the categories stand the way the founders set 'em. Just my 2 pennies worth.
The proposal does not 'play' with a bunch of categories other than pistoleer and a couple others. It just adds the two pistol and rifle class which has been very much excepted at the posse levels and it also separates working cowboy so black powder and one handed shooters arent lumped in with someone that want's to shoot light gamer loads.
It is not right if only the people wanting to shoot four guns get to be separated by each style and powder type and every one else is all lumped together.
In recent National shoots there are four gun categories with only one shooter in them and sometimes none at all yet over 50% of the shooters are in one class. There is something wrong when close to 60% of the shooters are all shooting the same class because there is nothing else for them.
The proposal is a very good one, there just may need to be a little tweaking on this so we don't alienate our traditional shooters that the pistoleer class is supposed to represent.
Well said, Cliff. Thank you.
maybe the 60% don't like cleaning guns as much as the rest of us. that there's a joke fella's. Me, I don't care what or how ya'll shoot, I just wish ya'll wouldn't mess with the way I choose to shoot! or Nana also.
Quote from: Dynamite Bill on March 08, 2013, 04:21:08 PM
maybe the 60% don't like cleaning guns as much as the rest of us. that there's a joke fella's. Me, I don't care what or how ya'll shoot, I just wish ya'll wouldn't mess with the way I choose to shoot! or Nana also.
Their proposal don't change what Nana shoots, you just might be forced to shoot in her class so she can beat ya. :P
Startin to get a sour feelin. Sounds like another Western Action Shooting outfit I belong to.
Wouldnt be right to do that to this group, it ain't fair to that class, need to even things up for that catagory. Besides we need to grow membership because revenue is down.
Like that outfit, I'll shoot the posse shoots where you have some autonomy and skip the regional and nationals.
JEB
Interesting comment, but no one is doing anything to this group. The group itself did the voting in the surveys and the congress will make the final decision.
It would be interesting to know how many of those voicing their opinions now took the time to fill out and send a survey to the ad hoc committee.
Do I agree with all the proposed changes? No, but some changes are needed to bring in new shooters. My concerns mainly lay with class descriptions concerning weapons to be used and such. I would really like to see all the 4 gun classes changed to a 3 gun setup, and allow the other class changes/additions as the proposal is written with some modifications to bring the Pistoleer back to the original intent, but that will never happen with the 4 gun categories.
Regards
JW
Quote from: harleydavis on March 08, 2013, 10:55:28 AM
Leave the categories stand the way the founders set 'em. Just my 2 pennies worth.
Respectfully Harley,
With that ideology, we would not have the Working Cowboy class which is the most popular shooting class across all posses.
I have avoided posting my opinions here as they will be reserved for the Congress meeting. What I will state again is that the motions by the Ad Hoc Committee are based exclusively on what the members who responded to the surveys asked for in Survey 1 and then voted for or against in Survey 2.
While the committee members may not agree in total with the motions, I believe we have provided a workable framework to create a class structure that will help NCOWS grow its membership. Membership that enjoys our historical emphasis and an equitable shooting competition.
Is this structure the structure to end all structure discussions? Definitely not! That is why we are proposing the creation of the Shooting Class Committee. This Shooting Class Committee will investigate and address future deletions, additions and modifications requested by members and submit their findings and recommendations to the Congress.
Will Rogers said, " even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.' It's time to get moving.
I think the committee has done a fine job and thank them for doing so.
Is it possible to learn the outcome of the voting in regards to the shotgun in Pistoleer class? It was not my intention to have such a heated discussion of classes and updates to accomodate the inevitable changing membership in any organization. I shall, of course, abide with the Congress in its representation of the organization. As noted, the survival of NCOWS into the future certainly outweighs one opinion. I really just was curious if I shot percussion shotgun if I would a the lone ranger. it is a slower process and would neccessarily slow up a posse. In a larger attended shoot, may bugger up the works, I understand that. If the shotgun is eliminated, so be it. One less weapon to clean and I will simply sell it to someone that has a better need for it. Thank you for your understanding.
Nothing has changed at this time. The Committee is doing some fine tuning, and the proposal has been tabled for now. However, there is no plan to change the Pistoleer class.
Harley; So, you are selling your smokepole. I think you give up too easily, or you live in an apartment.
I will still use my percussion 12 ga in Pistoleer. I switch out between shooting percussion and cartridge. But glad Psitoleer will remain unchanged.
Quote from: Sir Charles deMouton-Black on March 16, 2013, 04:20:44 PM
Harley; So, you are selling your smokepole. I think you give up too easily, or you live in an apartment.
Well, sold it already. It wasnt a matter of giving up, I bought an Uberti Russian and so, it was a matter of funds. I have my old hammer SxS that I will fall back on. Also, my idiocy knows no bounds it seems as I currently have my brain struggling with a potential purchase of a Spencer. Must be some sort of nut.........oh,I forgot where I was for a moment. This Forum is home to whole host of like minded cowboys!!
Thats good that there will still be a place for percussion shotguns. So when will we know about the other proposed classes? Are we waiting another year?
Quote from: Cliff Fendley on March 16, 2013, 10:25:55 PM
Thats good that there will still be a place for percussion shotguns. So when will we know about the other proposed classes? Are we waiting another year?
There will be more news on this as the solution develops. I don't expect a long delay. When it happens, and all the minutes from Congress are ready, there will be a posting in the "News From The Executive Committee" forum.
thanks for replying tom,i know alot of people are interested in the out come of congress meeting that lasted to midnight.alot of questions came up about the shooting classes and some of the reps and senators expressed concern that this motion replaced all of the classes as they now stand.i believe we can add classes to encourage more shooters at the national but i have to say those that set up the ncows org. did a wonderful job in keeping the shooters in each class on equal footing as far as equipment goes.thanks again to all that partisipated at congress meeting ,it was so much fun maybe we should do it every week.jefff
That proposal did not replace all of the current classes at all, how in the world could anyone think it replaced all of the current classes?
It changed Pistoleer class...an easy fix with a motion to amend.
It eliminated the Elder class and may have changed the youth categories.
What other classes did this proposal replace?
The proposal mostly "added" the classes the membership has voted and asked for in the surveys.
with all respect cliff you were not at the meeting and it was stated that if approved that if this motion would do away with the orginal classes in ncows.if it were just adding a 2pistol and1 rifle class i believe it would have been approved.anyway the add-hoc is working on resolving the issues that came up and are working on revisions .the best solutions to a problem sometimes take a little more time i have found and i think this will be worked out.when i read your post you seemed angry and maybe i am not the one answering these questions but i believe what was done was prudent with our time limits.jefff
Folks,
Lets not get all worked up here. It is not "all the classes" that are being replaced. It is a sizable portion of By Law 10-1 defining the classes that needs replacing or rewriting. The proposal is not getting rid of any categories, but adding them. The Elder class was missing from the proposal. However, that was, as admitted in the meeting, an error, but the back up data and reports indicated that the elder class as it is now (4 gun) is remaining, with the addition of a two gun Elder. Ted stated in the meeting that where one saw "Senior" in the proposal, it should have read "Senior and Elder". The same with Junior - keeping the 4 gun, adding the 2 gun. Again, there are no categories being done away with or replaced. However, the way By Law 10-1 is currently written, much of that language will have to be replaced or heavily revised to accommodate the additions of the new classes. Because the language needed to be actually included in the proposal to really make it actionable, it was moved and voted to table the proposal until such time the language is ready. When the Ad Hoc Committee has this done, there will be a motion to take it off the table and Congress will vote on the proposal.
Cliff & Jeff
You are both right! The proposal did not include the curent Elders class which was an error on the Committee's part. It will remain. There were also limits on what shotguns a BP shooter could use which were in the current classes and were again omitted by the committee.
The motion does not replace the classes, but it does divide the existing classes. It does add new classes such as the 2 pistol & rifle class. At the congress meeting the motion was amended to retain teh current Pistoleer class structure and add a 2 pistol & rifle pistoleer class.
Because the motion needed some "clean up" to bring it more in line with the existing classes' requirements. the motion was tabled. The Ad Hoc Committee will address these requirements and resubmit the motion in the near future.
Ted
The Ad Hoc Committee went to work literally the next morning.
This will be resolved very quickly. I am sure all the hard work put in by the Ad Hoc Committee will pay off and everyone should be pleased.
Remember that this was intended to define classes at the Regional and National level only. Clubs are still able to experiment at the local level just as in the past, so long as basic NCOWS guidelines are maintained.
thanks guys,you put it better than i did .i just felt that congress did work long and hard to adress the all the proposals and want to thank them for thier time and energy .jefff
Definitely! While the by-laws state that these classes must be made "available" at local posse shoots, posses can continue to offer as many new, different and addtional classes as desired by their members.
Ted
I look forward to reading the minutes of the Ad hoc Committe's meeting the very next morning. Celeste
Me too!
Jeff, I don't know how asking questions implied anger. Sorry you took it that way.
I was pointing out that just by reading the proposal it is obvious it was not eliminating current categories.
In my question in response to your post I should have worded it "which would be eliminated?"
If you replace six apples with a half a dozen more it's still six apples.
Thank the others for clearing this up and thank all on the committee for their hard work on this.