Cas City Forum Hall & CAS-L

What is the procedure if you are shooting and one round in your revolver fails to fire (you recock and pull the trigger 6 times and still no fire) all the primers show firing pin indentations? WM

Dang if this doesn't happen to me once in 'bout every 800 to 1000 rounds....CCI small pistol.....

I too roll it around once then I give it up as let's say like a squib....


pick myself up a nice li'll ol' miss and extra time for roll'n... :P. :P. :P

Quote from: wildman1 on January 06, 2013, 07:51:20 AM
What is the procedure if you are shooting and one round in your revolver fails to fire (you recock and pull the trigger 6 times and still no fire) all the primers show firing pin indentations? WM

Well the proper proceedure is to NOT shoot it again until you have unloaded and inspected the barrel for obstruction for a possible squib. Sometimes you may not hear a thing ( background noise and the like ), but there was just enough pressure to push the projectile forward into the barrel. Subsequent firing would of course cause one hell of a bulged or split barrel, and serious injury or death to you.

Recocking and pulling the trigger again, as you say, is a major no-no. Hope I have not come off as a know it all, just prefer you didn't injure or kill yourself  :-\

Safety first.

Quote from: Gen. Jackson on January 06, 2013, 08:40:11 AM
Well the proper proceedure is to NOT shoot it again until you have unloaded and inspected the barrel for obstruction for a possible squib. Sometimes you may not hear a thing ( background noise and the like ), but there was just enough pressure to push the projectile forward into the barrel. Subsequent firing would of course cause one hell of a bulged or split barrel, and serious injury or death to you.

Recocking and pulling the trigger again, as you say, is a major no-no. Hope I have not come off as a know it all, just prefer you didn't injure or kill yourself  :-\

Safety first.

Depends on the SITUATION,,,Slip'd hammer, light primer strike of "go fast" springs, flat out primer DUD...... Yours was not asked by WM1 'cause experienced shooters KNOW a squib as does the RO....... ;) 

I appreciate both replies. But I do know a squib. Or at least can tell if the primer does go off. It happened in the middle of a string, third or fourth shot and just didn't fire.  If I had a clean shoot goin could I drop a round in the empty chamber and fire at the target?  Hammer would then be down on an empty cartridge.  WM

Quote from: Gen. Jackson on January 06, 2013, 08:40:11 AM

Recocking and pulling the trigger again, as you say, is a major no-no.

Howdy Gen, I'm gonna humblie disagree with you on this one. We have procedures in place for when this happen. I have yet to see a bullet stacked because of a squib. Between to RO and the spotters they can hear a primer only and stop the shooter when no bullet goes down range. If we stopped the shooter every time a primer popped (no bang) the C&B shooter would be doing alota reshoots.
RO I page 9
FRONTIERSMAN CATEGORY
The Chief Range Officer shall be prepared for the unique problems associated with
cap and ball revolvers. These items include potential "hang-fires," "cap only" ignition,
and a complete failure to fire. In a "cap only" ignition and failure to fire, the Frontiersman
should be allowed to continue firing the remaining chambers. The CRO shall not
confuse these occurrences as potential squib loads. Misfires during the course of fire by
Frontiersman will require the Chief Range Officer to accommodate clearing the gun after
completing the stage. The Timer Operator shall always require these clearances be accomplished
down range at the firing line. It is acceptable to recap and discharge the still
loaded chamber(s) or simply uncap the charged chambers.
Percussion revolvers may only be capped at the loading area or during the course of
fire.

Howdy Wildman, you have several options for failure to fire (no primer pop, no bang). This often happens when a shooter double clutches and it hits on an empty or fired round, or they drag the hammer. One (and the most common) is to continue untill you have cycled the gun six rounds. When doing this remember to stay foucused with front sight on the target. Way to often folks start to give up,  or cycle the gun so fast that they miss when in finally does fire.
  Another is to declare malfunction and ground the gun on a suitable prop, or if instructed hand the gun off. Either way stay focused, make this as simple as a transition so you can complete the stage to the best of your ability. This method is usually faster than a 5 second miss.
RO II page 8
Squibs
In the event a Chief Range Officer suspects a squib load has been encountered, an
immediate command shall be given to the shooter to make that firearm safe and continue
on with the next procedure. The CRO will preferably, allow the shooter to make the firearm
safe on a nearby and appropriate horizontal surface (box, table, straw bale, ground,
or the like), or if necessary, assist the shooter by allowing them to "hand off" the firearm.
  And yet another is to replace the defective round , or if shooting C&B replace the primer. While both of these methods will slow down your stage time considerably more than a 5 second miss, I have seen it done by shooters that want a clean match. I've seen this most often at big matches. Again if you decide to do this stay focused and try to make as smooth a transition as going from one firearm to the next. Good Luck :)


Jefro :D Relax-Enjoy

Quote from: wildman1 on January 06, 2013, 09:44:38 AM
I appreciate both replies. But I do know a squib. Or at least can tell if the primer does go off. It happened in the middle of a string, third or fourth shot and just didn't fire.  If I had a clean shoot goin could I drop a round in the empty chamber and fire at the target?  Hammer would then be down on an empty cartridge.  WM

I also agree that it is not difficult to know when a primer goes bang or not with the pistol in your hand.... again... Experienced shooters....

Now load'n one in the empty cylinder hole for a clean match run is a COOL idea that I did NOT know that one can do.... just thought that it "sucked" to be you that day....  :D  :D  :D

Quote from: yeti76620 on January 06, 2013, 09:08:55 AM
...... Yours was not asked by WM1 'cause experienced shooters KNOW a squib as does the RO....... ;)  

;D ;D ;D...Old Model RUGERS... ;D ;D ;D

No, he did not ask me specifically what my opinion was nor did I give a condescending reply. However experienced he may be, and I'm sure he is, I stand by my opinion and offered it in good faith.

As for the Jefro's reply, I appreciate your learned opinions and will certainly take them into consideration. Albeit, for me personally and as a matter of habit, I will continue said proceedure. I don't just shoot "cowboy" guns - but also modern shotguns, high powered rifles and custom 1911's. Oh yes, I have seen several split barrels do to the aforementioned. It is a scary and nasty thing.

I remember witnessing one occassion where some guy at the pistol range was using a Sig Sauer .40 cal. when it suddenly blew the frame off and split the barrel. He was white as a ghost and breathing heavy. He managed to break two fingers and had small shrapnel imbedded in his arms and face. Luckily he was wearing eyeglasses ( not shooter glasses ) that were made of polycarbonate plastic.

He had a round in the barrel and never heard the primer pop.



Gentlemen kind regards.

I did not drop one in the empty chamber and fire because I did not know if it was allowed. Would I have been OK to clear the revolver, ie. unload all the chambers on the line and then reholster? WM

Quote from: wildman1 on January 06, 2013, 10:30:19 AM
I did not drop one in the empty chamber and fire because I did not know if it was allowed. Would I have been OK to clear the revolver, ie. unload all the chambers on the line and then reholster? WM

I believe that ALL unload'n must be done at the unload'n table.....  :-\  :-\  :-\  Firearm must be handed off....  What say you Jefro..  ???

Gen Jackson Sir....  It's all good ...  meant no confrontations here as your input IS valuable.....  ;)  ;)

Quote from: wildman1 on January 06, 2013, 10:30:19 AM
Would I have been OK to clear the revolver, ie. unload all the chambers on the line and then reholster? WM

Best bet is to declare a malfunction and either ground it with it safely pointed down range or to declare a malfunction and hand it off.  By the time you go around once to see if the bullet will fire the RO should be aware that there is a problem and be ready to take the gun and hand it off to someone for them to take to the unloading table muzzle up.  Then you can continue to shoot the rest of the stage.

If you are concerned about someone else handling your gun after a misfire and you are at the end of the stage the RO may let you unload the one gun there and then continue to the unloading table.  If they won't then most people will not bother another person's gun without asking first but you can state that you will take care of the issue when you get done shooting.  If you ground the gun then it's probably not going to be an issue but when you do pick the gun up at the end of the shooting string make sure to carry it muzzle up to the unloading table to tend to it.  Don't holster it.


If you do put a round in the empty chamber to save a clean match that you might have going then you absolutely have to remember that if you holster that firearm the hammer MUST be down on an empty chamber or a spent round.

Quote from: yeti76620 on January 06, 2013, 10:45:04 AM

Gen Jackson Sir....  It's all good ...  meant no confrontations here as your input IS valuable.....  ;)  ;)

No there is no animosity I assure you. Sometimes it can be very difficult to gauge someone's response via the internet. And besides, I am open to any and all civil arguments. Its a good thing.

Damn I sounded like Martha Stewart there LOL.

Quote from: Gen. Jackson on January 06, 2013, 10:22:54 AM

As for the Jefro's reply, I appreciate your learned opinions and will certainly take them into consideration. Albeit, for me personally and as a matter of habit, I will continue said proceedure. I don't just shoot "cowboy" guns - but also modern shotguns, high powered rifles and custom 1911's. Oh yes, I have seen several split barrels do to the aforementioned. It is a scary and nasty thing.

Gentlemen kind regards.

Howdy Gen. Oh I agree and have seen damaged firearms before, just not in SASS. We are shooting low velocity rounds with an RO by our side and three spotters, all looking and listening for rounds down range and and safety violations. We have rules in place for the exact thing Wildman described and for the C&B shooter. They has several options avalible for when this happens. As an RO when the shooter declares malfunction I prefer they ground the firearm on a prop and continue with the stage. Good Luck :)

Jefro :D Relax-Enjoy

If just a 'dead' round, just reload a 6th rnd or take the miss.
You do NOT have to unload to do this.
LG

Quote from: Camille Eonich on January 06, 2013, 10:57:13 AM
Best bet is to declare a malfunction and either ground it with it safely pointed down range or to declare a malfunction and hand it off.  By the time you go around once to see if the bullet will fire the RO should be aware that there is a problem and be ready to take the gun and hand it off to someone for them to take to the unloading table muzzle up.  Then you can continue to shoot the rest of the stage.

If you are concerned about someone else handling your gun after a misfire and you are at the end of the stage the RO may let you unload the one gun there and then continue to the unloading table.  If they won't then most people will not bother another person's gun without asking first but you can state that you will take care of the issue when you get done shooting.  If you ground the gun then it's probably not going to be an issue but when you do pick the gun up at the end of the shooting string make sure to carry it muzzle up to the unloading table to tend to it.  Don't holster it.


If you do put a round in the empty chamber to save a clean match that you might have going then you absolutely have to remember that if you holster that firearm the hammer MUST be down on an empty chamber or a spent round.

Thank you I wanted to put a round in the chamber but didn't know if I should. It is good to know that I could and then leave the hammer down on a spent cartridge. I wasn't sure about that. I certainly didn't know where the defective round was in the revolver. WM

Sometimes I have really bad brain freezes.

Wildman,  Jefro has it right.

In addiion, my understading is that the next RO manual will make grounding or safely staging a malfunctioning firearm as the preferred method of dealing with one rather than the TO trying to deal with handling a loaded weapon and safely assisting the shooter through the rest of the stage. 

I was a little deef when I started shooting SASS. Now I am a little more deef. But I can pick up a pop, splut, or click. You can also feel it. An experienced SASS shooter will make a decision right away and I an't never seen a bad one. If mine goes click, I pin the trigger and start sliphammering. The chances are very good that the first strike seated  the primer and the next hit will fire it. And 9 times out of ten, it will fire.

Jefro, there is a discussion about this "declared dead" subject. Any news. The last I heard, you will not give a malfunctioning gun off to the RO but delare it and put it on the prop.

In regards to whether the round was dead or not. It was not. I brought it home, pulled the bullet, dumped the powder, put the cartridge back in the gun and lit up the trash can. What I will say is I have had trouble with those primers not seating well and have gone to the single stage to seat them. My revolvers have NOT had the springs lightened. Hopefully the problem will not happen again. The timer operator told me to stage the revolver. WM

Is there a reason why you use the CCI primers?  They are some of the hardest that there are.  We used them for a while and then had our springs lightened some so we dropped to Winchester and had several flat out bad primers from them.  After that we switched to Federals and never looked back.

I'm not sure where ya got the idea that I use CCI primers. But I don't. I use Winchester which are the middle of the road as far as hardness goes. They (Winchester primers and Brass) are inconsistant. I have more trouble seating Winchester primers in Winchester brass than any other brass that I own.  :P WM

Quote from: wildman1 on January 07, 2013, 04:07:56 PM
I'm not sure where ya got the idea that I use CCI primers. But I don't. I use Winchester which are the middle of the road as far as hardness goes. They (Winchester primers and Brass) are inconsistant. I have more trouble seating Winchester primers in Winchester brass than any other brass that I own.  :P WM

It was Yeti in the second post that uses CCI, sorry.  Agree on the Winchesters.

Quote from: Red Cent on January 07, 2013, 02:16:31 PM

Jefro, there is a discussion about this "declared dead" subject. Any news. The last I heard, you will not give a malfunctioning gun off to the RO but delare it and put it on the prop.

Howdy Red Cent, that applies to Wild Bunch since each pistol shooting position requires a table or sutible prop. In SASS PW has stated that he prefers the grounding of a malfunction if possible, they are looking into a rule change. Stage design such as down range movement may limit the avalibility of a prop. IMHO this could be over come by using the same rule as in WB. One way is to provide a prop pointed into a side berm, or requiring the malfunctioned firearm to be carried by the shooter safely to the next down range shooting position, with a table or prop at that location. Good Luck :)

Wild Bunch Handbook
Malfunctioning guns still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so
long as the malfunction is declared and the gun made safe (placed on a
prop with the muzzle in safe direction). At this point, the firearm is still
loaded, everyone knows it, and the firearm can be handled in an
appropriate manner. It is a 10-Second Minor Safety Violation to hand off
a malfunctioning firearm. It must be grounded safely on a prop.

Wild Bunch Handbook
22. Once a shooter stages their firearms on the firing line, no other person
will touch the firearms. The only exception is if the RO deems it
necessary to prevent a severe safety violation. (Any penalties would still
apply.) The shooter shall be the only person to move their firearms from
the firing line to the unloading table.

Wild Bunch Mtach Directors Guide
Remember you MUST provide a safe staging prop at EVERY location
where the 1911 may be fired.

SASS RO I
Malfunctioning guns still containing rounds will not warrant penalties so long as the malfunction is declared and the gun made safe (handed to the Range Officer or placed on a prop with the muzzle in safe direction). At this point, the firearm is still loaded, everyone knows it, and the firearm can be handled in an appropriate manner.

Jefro :D Relax-Enjoy

Quote from: Camille Eonich on January 07, 2013, 04:51:29 PM
It was Yeti in the second post that uses CCI, sorry.  Agree on the Winchesters.

No need ta be sorry, this thread has elicited a lot more and varied responses than I thought it would. I have in the past used CCI and still do for my Long Range BPCR. I'm thinkin that '84 Trapdoor would set just about anything off. It is not enough ta know somethin ya have ta be able ta have the right response "under the gun" in order to do it right. Thanks for all the responses I'm sure they will help. WM

I remember witnessing one occassion where some guy at the pistol range was using a Sig Sauer .40 cal. when it suddenly blew the frame off and split the barrel. He was white as a ghost and breathing heavy. He managed to break two fingers and had small shrapnel imbedded in his arms and face. Luckily he was wearing eyeglasses ( not shooter glasses ) that were made of polycarbonate plastic.

He had a round in the barrel and never heard the primer pop.


Do you mean the primer only was strong enough to cycle the action, eject the empty, chamber a new round?

I musta missed somethin here John, I'm not sure what yer talkin about.  :P WM

Quote from: John Smith on January 07, 2013, 05:12:24 PM
Do you mean the primer only was strong enough to cycle the action, eject the empty, chamber a new round?

Yes, apparently. It was later understood that he was using lighter aftermarket springs, while at the same time using a heavy load. It was enough force to put a round in the barrel and cause the slide to be moved to the rear position ejecting "spent" casing.

Also, when shooting semi-auto in quick seccession, and with ear muffs on and the surrounding reports of gunfire within the confines of an enclosed range, then it is logical to see why this happened.

Actually this kind of thing happens more often than you might think. That is why I made my previous statement regarding a squib round. I HAVE to be like this because I don't want to get out of the habit. I shoot way more than just western guns.

It seems to me that having a different rule for WB and regular SASS could be a problem, with WB requiring grounding the pistol, but other catagories handing it to the RO. Don't know about other clubs, but at ours we have WB and others on the same posse, seems a good idea to minimize the rule differences whenever possible.

Quote from: Camille Eonich on January 07, 2013, 04:51:29 PM
It was Yeti in the second post that uses CCI, sorry.  Agree on the Winchesters.

On the LAST primer run the CCI's where the only thing I could get around Denver Town at the time and I'm just using them up in my 357 mag Nickel cases..... Have 5k Winchesters to use up next.... Federals are hard to come across 'round here for some reason.....Seems that Winchesters are the brand of choice in these parts.....   :-\  :-\  :-\


It's just a game and faulty primers are a part of it so I don't get too bent on the subject....  Good to Know the Options.. Thanks!

I use CCI in my nickle cases that I keep in my belt cause they look better. They are fully functional rounds but I don't shoot em. As far as having a hard time finding primers goes,the only small pistol primers I could find for Miss B were S&B, I'm hopin they work OK. WM

S&B ammo is good stuff.
I have shot several K's of rounds their ammo(mostly 5.56mm).
I wouln't worry at all about the primers.
LG