I am unable to extract a cartridge with my U. S. Model 1871 "Infantry Rifle" (as altered from the Model 1865 Burnside Spencer Carbine).
I only have the pictures and drawings shown in Dick Hosmer's book, which includes a chapter about the above Springfield Armory rifle.
If I understand the process correctly, the blade extractor pulls the case back about 1/8", then the center hook extractor finishes the extraction.
This may not be correct, but if so, it appears to me that the blade is not doing its job, and with the case still fully in the chamber, the hook will not engage the case, and will not do any extraction.
Due to extraction issues, I only fired the rifle a few times, not enough to determine how accurate it will shoot, but I can say that it is accurate enough to defend one's self in battle.
any diagrams, process descriptions, or suggestions greatly appreciated, as I am very much a rookie when it comes to Spencer.
WCR
The extractor on the 1865 converted Springfield Spencer is the long blade spring assist Spencer extractor. This works by first sliding up in a groove for a caming action to start the extraction, then by a quick flick of the leaver extracts the casse if all goes well, the hook on the block is the cartridge stop and has nothing to do with extraction in this model.
Extraction problems can happen if the extractor blade is not pushing against the rim of the cases (can be fixed by puting a slight inward twist to the rear edge of the extractor in most cases).
What cases are you using? If Starline, they will need to be anealed and fire-formed before you get reliable extraction (they will oftern stick on the first fireing, but work well after this).
If they are cut down 50-70 brass, some times the base of the cases is a very tight fit in the Spencer chamber(check this by putting a loaded cartridge in the rifle and closing the action. Now point the rifle in the air and slowly open the action and the cartridge should fall out before the extractor starts to work. If this does not happen the base of the case is to big and will cause it to jam). These rifles have a Springfield 50-70 barrel chamberd for 56-50 with a 1 in 42 twist rate and shoot very well with the Lyman 515-139D bullet with 40 to 45 gr of FF BP (you will need a compression die to get this to work)
thanks for the input
Where did you find the information about the "cartridge stop"?
I personally know nothing about the Spencer, so I rely on written information, my source is as follows:
The one book with pictures that I have called the hook in the center, "the extractor hook". Chapter 16, page 165, figure 16-7.
"The .58 and .50 Caliber Rifles & Carbines of the Springfield Armory 1865-1872" by Richard A. Hosmer.
I used Starline brass, first fireing, so when I reload them I hope to have better extraction. The fired (or unfired cartridge) fits the chamber very tightly, and will only come out with use of the cleaning rod.
Dick hangs out over on the bulletin board at www.trapdoorcollector.com. He is both knowledgeable and helpful.
The saw tooth projection on the lower breechblock of an M-1865 Spencer is not an extractor, as Herbert noted. It works in conjunction with the ramp that drops down when the breech opens to stop cartridges coming up out of the magazine. The later Lane Extractor (M-1867) did double duty as a cartridge stop and extractor. That may be what the book is talking about.
One other thing to check, many Spencers have been dry fired (some a lot) over the years. This can put a dent in the right side of the chamber that will cause failures to chamber and failures to extract.
Is your chamber rusty or pitted? That also can cause extraction problems.
Thanks for the input and suggestions.
Dick Hosmer is a great person, has been a tremendous resource to me in my pursuit of rifles and carbines from the Springfield Armory. I suggest his book for anyone that enjoys old rifles, Spencers, or others.
Anyone with a close up picture of the "Lane extractor"? This would assist me, my rifle should't have one, and I do not think it does, but what I have looks like the hook in the picture in Dick's book, but he may have mistaken it for the "Lane extractor"
The chamber is clean and shows little wear.
Now that I understand that the blade extractor is the method of extraction, I will focus on it's operation, and trouble shoot the process.
First of all, I need to reload some of the brass, and begin to adapt the Starline brass to my rilfe. (I think this is the problem)
I will try to put the inward twist to the blade.
In reading some older posts, it appears to me that if the rim diameter of the brass is smaller than normal, the blade does not catch the rim, and begin the process.
For now, I will continue to use my Spencer in "single shot mode", and extract with my cleaning rod!
Any suggestions for sources of loaded cartidges, or brass, other than those loaded with Starline?
WCR
Here you go. The Lane extractor from my M-1867 rifle. A possibility for your extraction problem could be that you need the cases fire formed. If the body is too small for your chamber it can allow cases to shift to the right just enough to jump the extractor.
Without knowing the dimensions of your brass or what the precise symptoms are, it's hard to diagnose. I know that none of my Spencers equipped with the left-side blade extractor (two Model 1860s and a Burnside Model 1865) will reliably extract Starline brass or shortened .348 Win brass. The problem seems to be rim diameter. The rim is wide enough for the extractor to draw the case partway out of the chamber, but once it is partly out of the chamber, the case can tip slightly to the right, away from the extractor, and the extractor slips past the rim. My modified .50-70 cases have wider rims, so the right receiver wall prevents the case from moving away from the extractor.
The Lane extractor (M1867) is a different animal and digests the Starline brass just fine.
With a little more information we might be able to help.
DJ
The leaf extractor shuld push the fired case against the right side of the fram when extracting with slite spring pressure,oftern the spring tension in the extractor has gorn dead from being held in tension when the action is closed over many years,you can put a slite bend in the blade when you put the twist in it then heat to a blue colour and drop in fluid for a quick cool this should put the tension back in the blade extractor,all so make sure the screw holding the extractor is tight
DJ and Herbert
many thanks for the detailed suggestions, I truly think this is the fix, as the rim diameter of the Starline 56-50 cases is too small in my opinion. I also have some 50-70 brass that I use for other rifles, and may try cutting down some cases in order to try a case with larger rim diameter, but first, I will work on the blade extractor as I now fully understand how it works.
can I add a "Lane extractor" to my breech block without any machining to the block?
I measured 10 cases of both 56-50 factory Starline, and 10 of 50-70 Starline
average rim diameter of 56-50 is .628 and average rim diameter of 50-70 is .651
I measured a few cases of Buffalo Arms loaded 56-50 and 50-70 and the results were similar.
Unfortunately, you can't add a Lane extractor easily. The clearance cut under the barrel for the cartridge stop (the tooth on your lower block) is considerably wider and deeper for the Lane extractor. The lower block is quite different too. The slot for the extractor is wider than for the earlier cartridge guide, there is a spring buried in there, and some different screws as well as the extractor itself. Of course, the cuts for the blade extractor are gone.
Most Spencers want a rim diameter of about 0.645", so you may have to turn down the 50-70s a little. It can be done with a file, but it's tedious. A lathe works a lot better. It's good for cutting off cases too.
0.628 is too small a rim, as you have discovered. I have a batch of 56-50 cases made from 348 Win brass, which also has small rims. They work fine in the M-1867, but rarely extract in other Spencers.
thanks for the input
I would love to have a lathe, and a mill, and a ........
On a realistic note, I may invest in one of the small cut-off saws and build a fixture to cut off 50-70 brass.
I have a 50 caliber Navy Cadet that shoots a little 50-45, and brass to load this is in between Spencer lenght, and Sharps 50-70 length.
There is no dought that the larger rim works better with the blade extractor,but many Spencer shooters including my self use the Starline 56-50 brass with very good results.the only Spencers with a blade extractor that I have worked on that would not extract the Starline brass were fixed by just tweeking the extractor as mentioned.Botom line is the modifyed brass will work in a worn gun but takes much more work to make and costs more(you could all so try 32 ga brass shot shells cut to size,a + is it holds more powder)