The proof marks show Uberti 1974, but my question is: replica of what?
It's .44, no longer made, Pietta offered similar ones through 2009 (but no more).
I've "narrowed" it down to three choices, but would be happy to be educated.
a.) Leech Rigdon
b.) Griswold & Gunnison
c.) Schneider & Glassic
C'mon all you of vast knowledge, help me out here.
P.S.
There is NO notch for a shoulder stock on it...(there are on my 3 Piettas)
With a rebatred >44 caliber cylinder (and a 5" barrel) it is not a replica of anything that ever existed but it ought to be fun to shoot.
It's a copy of the prototype 'Capt Billy Special' made by Wish&Dream. They never were able to get funding and closed their doors shortly after this one prototype was made. Anyway, that's the story I'd tell if I were the owner. ;D
Quote from: Capt Billy on May 17, 2011, 02:50:14 AM
The proof marks show Uberti 1974, but my question is: replica of what?
It's .44, no longer made, Pietta offered similar ones through 2009 (but no more).
I've "narrowed" it down to three choices, but would be happy to be educated.
a.) Leech Rigdon
b.) Griswold & Gunnison
c.) Schneider & Glassic
C'mon all you of vast knowledge, help me out here.
Capt. Billy,
It's a "replica" from one of 'Alchimista's' (Alessandro Pietta) day dreams. There was no such animal with either an iron frame, gun metal (bronze) or even brass until invented by Pietta.
As Hawkeye says it is fun to shoot, but it is not a clone or replica of anything. It is just a brass frame cut for an Army model cylinder (.44 caliber) 'a la the 1860 with a 1848 Colt's Holster Pistol (Dragoon) half octagonal barrel and the older pre-1860 loading lever, smaller Navy grips and all brass grip frame.
None of the Confederate copies or any other copies of the Colt's pattern revolvers made a .44 rebated cylinder like that. Now the Leech & Rigdon and several other Confederate copies used that style barrel, but they were either Navy model frames in .36 caliber or the larger 1848 frame in .44 caliber. Guns were produced with bronze frames because of the shortage of iron, they would have relegated the caliber to .36 to keep it safe. Some of the frames weren't even a faithful bronze alloy they were mixtures of whatever brass/bronze mixtures were scrounged. Some churches even donated bells to the war effort.
Your frame is probably brass and not bronze, but I don't believe Pietta just comes out and says what the material actually is. Even Uberti according to their literature is using brass instead the stronger bronze (gun metal) for their Henry and 1866 frames. There are many different alloys of modern brass and it appears both Pietta and Uberti have decided it is strong enough to use instead of the original bronze. Having a softer ductile material like brass allows them to get away with going to the lower tensile strength material because it will stretch long before it fails. 19th century brass was usually too soft and had too many impurities to allow its use for frames.
~Mako
What Mako said +1
Fingers
My other 3 are Piettas, the one in the picture is from Uberti...Mako? As you seem to be one of the better educators on here, could you help me gain some knowledge as to what is meant by the term "rebated cylinder"?
I'm guessing I'm building quite a collection of "fantasy" weapons: 4 of the ones in question, 1 Man With No Name...at least I can save up for conversions of my matched Pietta steel 51 Navies.
Thanks again for all of the things I'm learning here...I'm more of a reenactor and not so much a shooter, so my guns wind up being eye catching "props".
Capt. Billy,
I'm confused as to why you keep calling it a Uberti. That pistol was made for Navy Arms by Pietta. You can buy one right now on the Dixie Gun Works site:
http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=949 (http://www.dixiegunworks.com/product_info.php?products_id=949)
Uberti didn't make those .44 caliber pistols on the brass frames, that's a Pietta trait. I might be wrong, and someone please correct me if I am, But I don't believe they ever made any. That is a dangerous thing to say when talking about replicas (saying they never made one of something that is...). What is the manufacturers mark that lead you to believe it was a Uberti? And what is the date code that leads you believe it was produced in 1974?
Here are a pair like yours made by Pietta for sale on the Ruger forum:
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=112311&sid=288cb74ee5d57f3db16a0bc161ba6bb1 (http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=112311&sid=288cb74ee5d57f3db16a0bc161ba6bb1)
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Odds%20and%20Ends/CB004.jpg
As for rebated cylinders, it is pretty simple. Rebated means diminished or reduced. The major diameter on an 1860 cylinder in .44 caliber was "rebated" at the rear to allow it to fit on a Navy model frame and still use the lock work of the Navy model. Otherwise they would have had to redesign the bolt stop, etc.
This shows both the straight cylinder Navy model in .36 caliber on top and the .44 Caliber "Rebated" 1860 cylinder on the bottom:
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Navy%20Model/NavyandArmy.png
The only difference in the frames is the clearance cut for the larger diameter on the forward portion of the .44 caliber cylinder, highlighted in red below:
http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/1860/516160frames.png
The rebated cylinder allowed Colt's to put a .44 caliber cylinder on a frame originally designed for .36 caliber.
So to recap, there were never any original revolvers made with brass frames (or bronze) in .44 caliber. All of the Confederate "Navy" model pistols were in .36 caliber. The only .44 caliber pistols produced by the Confederacy os in the Confederacy were the Dance revolvers in .44 or the Dragoon copies. There was no Army Model copy or pistols made with the rebated .44 caliber cylinder.
Colt's made three rebated percussion revolvers, the 1860 Army model in .44 Caliber and the 1862 pocket pistols. The 1862 Pocket Navy which had a rebated cylinder just like the Army model and the 1862 Pocket Police which had flutes in addition to the rebated cylinder. Both of those pistols were in .36 caliber and had 5 shot cylinders. The rebated cylinder allowed them to put a 5 shot .36 caliber on a frame designed for .31 caliber.
Regards,
Mako
The proof marks that I used crashed with my last computer...but thank heavens for macro lenses!
One is under the loading lever, the other, on frame at the left of the cylinder...none of the other proof marks are in question.
None of the 3 Piettas share either of these marks.
Now, maybe I can finally answer these questions. and thanks in advance
Capt. Billy,
The top mark is a variant of the FAP logo Pietta uses. The bottom is the Navy Arms logo.
You usually see the FAP inside of a flattened diamond, but I have seen other marks, usually on guns built for importers such as Navy Arms, Traditions or other large importers. I have read they are no longer doing special markings and are using the diamond FAP. I haven't corroborated this.
What is the date code and where was it on the revolver? There will be two proof marks beside it, or it will be between them. The date code should be in a box.
Regards,
Mako
First...thanks a million...I'll take side by sides of the new and the older gun and post them before tonight.
The date code on the old one, is on the right side of the frame...no box, just XXX, then to the left of that are the 2 other proof marks.
On the newer ones it goes, box, (CD), THEN proof marks. The diamond and F.LLI Pietta Made in Italy, are on the right side of the barrel...no markings on the left of the frame.
I promise the pictures will show s/n, proof marks, and every marking I can find...MAN these Italians are making it confusing to this poor old cowboy!
It's 2:00am here right now, but I WILL have the pix up when I wake.
Billy
(proud owner of a Cap'n Billy prototype .44...4 of them even!)
Rather than rambling on, I'll let the pictures speak my thousand words.
Sorry, I forgot the barrels.
Quote from: Capt Billy on May 24, 2011, 03:13:12 AM
First...thanks a million...I'll take side by sides of the new and the older gun and post them before tonight.
The date code on the old one, is on the right side of the frame...no box, just XXX, then to the left of that are the 2 other proof marks.
On the newer ones it goes, box, (CD), THEN proof marks. The diamond and F.LLI Pietta Made in Italy, are on the right side of the barrel...no markings on the left of the frame.
I promise the pictures will show s/n, proof marks, and every marking I can find...MAN these Italians are making it confusing to this poor old cowboy!
It's 2:00am here right now, but I WILL have the pix up when I wake.
Billy
(proud owner of a Cap'n Billy prototype .44...4 of them even!)
XXX is 1974 and CD is 2009. They're both Piettas.
Fingers,
I couldn't blow the picture up enough to see the "XXX." I was afraid to say anything because I had no idea Pietta had been making them for over 37 years. I thought the .44 caliber cylinders on brass frames and "Navy" style configurations (read that as octagonal barrels, pre-1860 style loading levers, Navy size grip or combinations of those) was a 1990s and later phenomenon.
You probably know better than anyone, do you know when Pietta started making those kinds of combinations?
~Mako
Mako,
If I understand his pictures correctly, the old one with the XXX date code is the one he had the picture of the RAG (Navy Arms) and FAP without the diamond markings in post 8. If that's not the case, I may have to reevaluate my response.
I don't know when Pietta started making repros.
Fingers,
You have it right.
I know Pietta has been making reproductions for a while, I was just wondering when they stated making the more "fanciful" "reproductions." I think their earliest ones were faithful reproductions of '51s and '60s. For some reason I was under the impression they began making their "Confederate" series of pistols and the .44 caliber '51s in the 90s. I haven't ever owned any of those, I always stuck with reproductions of Colt's and Remington models. I have had Piettas as far back as the '80s and probably a few manufactured for importers in the late '70s. I even had some Lyman and Palmetto pistols years ago, I still have some ASMs. My first non-original Colt pattern pistol was a '49 I built from a kit in the '70s.
I'm straying from my question though, I really haven't followed the history of the Piettas like I have Ubertis. It seems like just recently I have seen a torrent of the brass framed pistols, but I know that's not entirely true because I have old gun magazines with mail order houses advertising them. I was just looking for a rough date they introduced the brass and not quite historically accurate pistols we see a lot of now being sold through places like Cabela's, etc.
~Mako
One of the side effects of the current economy is the number of firearms that are appearing on the auction sites; both modern and antique. I've manages to pick up quite a few C&B repros from the 70s lately and got a pair of 1960 brass framed G&Gs. There's a lot of stuff coming out of the woodwork that hasn't been seen or documented before.
IMHO one should never say never when it comes to replica revolvers. Uberti was involved in the making of these brass framed "Navy-Army" C&B revolvers...at least they were during the early 1970s.
My first C&B revolver in 1973 or 1974 was such a brasser in .44 cal. with rebated cylinder and a square/round barrel with the hinged loading lever. Mine had the long tube, I think 7,5". And yes, she was an Uberti.
Long Johns Wolf
Quote from: Long Johns Wolf on May 27, 2011, 01:21:33 AM
IMHO one should never say never when it comes to replica revolvers. Uberti was involved in the making of these brass framed "Navy-Army" C&B revolvers...at least they were during the early 1970s.
My first C&B revolver in 1973 or 1974 was such a brasser in .44 cal. with rebated cylinder and a square/round barrel with the hinged loading lever. Mine had the long tube, I think 7,5". And yes, she was an Uberti.
Long Johns Wolf
Haaaaaa!!!! yep, I knew there would be an exception which is why I invited the other greybeards who have been doing this full time for thirty years to chime in and correct me:
Quote from: Mako on May 23, 2011, 03:36:29 PM
...Uberti didn't make those .44 caliber pistols on the brass frames, that's a Pietta trait. I might be wrong, and someone please correct me if I am, But I don't believe they ever made any. That is a dangerous thing to say when talking about replicas (saying they never made one of something that is...)...
In the '70s and '80s I was active military too busy shooting IPSC to pay attention to the finer things in life like shoot more real gunpowder pistols. I had some in my collection, but they were just part of my overall firearms hobby activities.
Wolf, thank you once again for adding to the narrative. You and several others on here are a wealth of experience and historical perspective.
Thank you,
Mako
Watch it son...I am one of those graybeards (but keep coloring it...vanity you know).
It shocked ME when I first dated the "Cap'n Billy", as I wasn't even aware the US was even importing as early as 74!
Imagine my headaches when I tried to learn about an Army San Paulo I had.
Thanks for all of the new things I've learned by posting this question...y'all have been an immense help.
I just made "friends" with Alessandro Pietta, and he wasn't born until 2 years AFTER my "Cap'n Billy proto-type" was made.
Now I'm still confused as to who's daydream it WAS!
:-\
Quote from: Capt Billy on June 05, 2011, 01:54:41 AM
I just made "friends" with Alessandro Pietta, and he wasn't born until 2 years AFTER my "Cap'n Billy proto-type" was made.
Now I'm still confused as to who's daydream it WAS!
:-\
His daddy's or another family member.
His or his daddy's...I just wish print could show real laughter on here...thanks
To add to this, I've heard that the BIG reason that Pietta and Uberti (and probably the others, too) started making these repos was in the late 50s/early 60s when the US was coming close to the 100th anniversary of the (un)Civil War. If I remember kee-reckt-ly, Val Forgett, the founder of Navy Arms was friends with Mr. Uberti and Mr. A.Pietta (the father to the man you made friends with, Cpt. Billy) and it was this bunch that started the importation of Italian copies of C/W revolvers. I'm pretty sure the 1851 Colt was the first gun produced and imported. I'm ALMOST sure it was a Pietta.
Many here would be surprised at how long the Italians have been producing arms and "copies" of other folk's weapons. The reason that Sam Colt had Mr. Ormsby do the drawings which became the roll-stampings on Colt Revolver cylinders was because that even then, the American gun market was becoming flooded with "cheap" copies coming from both Italy and Belgium. If you bought a Colt revolver that had an engraved cylinder (back then) you the customer could be guaranteed of getting a Genuine Colt and not some "knock off" made in Italy or Belgium. (That and Colt like engraved guns.)
Hope this adds to an interesting discussion. Cpt. Billy, your "babies" may not be exactly authentic, but I'll bet you have fun with 'em ... just like I did back when I owned a brass-framed "Colt" in the mid - to - late 70s! Fun is why we're here and why we shoot these gems, after all!
The repro industry started in 1957 when Val Forgett, William B. Edwards, and Vittorio Gregorelli formed Navy Arms & produced the first '51 Navy reproductions.
There is a very interesting read about the beginnings of the replica industry in Mr. Edwards book "Civil War Guns" and in Dennis Russell's article posted at the RPRCA website on "The Gun That Started It All" http://rprca.tripod.com/gun_that_started_it_all.htm
Gregorelli partnered with Aldo Uberti and produced repros under the G.U. marking for about 4 years until A. Uberti was formed.
I knew I was close.