Hi All,
I just bought an armi-sport spencer in 56-50 and I'm having major feeding issues with it. As in it will not feed at all. I've tried cartridge lengths of 1.55" down to .8 (basically the bullet and cartridge with no powder) and it will not feed.
I've noticed a mark where I assume the upper block hits the cartridge when I try to work the lever, which gets closer to the rim as the length goes down.
Any advice? Otherwise I have to send it back, which I would hate to do.
Thanks - PvtGreg
I had the same problem with mine and my sons Spencer ( from Taylor's). A friend of mine, who has rebuilt several original Spencer's, believes it is the tension on the cartridge keeper: the spring is too weak. We have only been using blanks (CW reenacting) and haven't used live ammo-yet. Try working the lever and placing a little pressure on the csartridge keeper with your finger and see what happens.
Retsgt.
Thanks for the advice Crossdraw, but no joy. Its almost like the round doesn't move up far enough, or the perhaps the lever doesn't work far enough on the down stroke.
OAL of 1.55 seems pretty short, and I don't see how a 0.8 could possibly work. The Spencer requires cartridges within a certain range--not too long and not too short. Also, if using measurements of original cartridges, remember that because of the flat point of a modern centerfire bullet, a modern cartridge will either be a little shorter or will have the ogive of the bullet further forward than an original. In my experience, getting the most reliable feeding involves lots of trial and error using cartridges of different lengths. I recommend doing that workup with dummies.
Thanks DJ,
1.55 works very well in my now 12 year old Romano Carbine so that's the length I tried with the armi-sport. I have this afternoon also tried 1.62 & 1.6 and with no joy. The .8 was out of desperation - the dent marks in the cartridges were about .8 from tip back toward the rim.
Points of clarification from my original post:
-Its not that the feed isn't smooth - nothing at all feeds.
-I'm using brass for the Armi-sport & out of desperation have tried regular 56-50 (cut down 50-70s) just to see if I could feed anything out of the magazine.
I'm pretty convinced its the gun and have returned it to the store to get Cimmeron on it, but I'm now curious if anyone else has had this problem with the Armi-sport.
Thanks all
If the first round won't even feed into the action at all, then it sounds like magazine spring weakness or obstruction (burr?) in the mag tube or at the juncture of tube and action, or maybe something on the block that is making the cartridge hang up. That should be discoverable with some detective work.
I thought of the spring and tried my Romano spring with no luck.
I think your other guesses are dead on - I'm betting on the top block being out of spec - it looks like its not rotating far enough on the down stroke and upper block is tight down against the lower block which I'm guessing stops it from going far enough down. My Romano has some give between the upper and lower block even when all the way down.
I'll post more when Cimmeron gets on it.
Thanks all.
Good luck, and we'll be interested to hear how it comes out.
--DJ
PvtGreg - for what it is worth, I had the same problem with my 45 Sch Spencer when it first arrived - would not feed my handloads. I called Cimmaron and spoke to their tech folks. They gave me Ron Norton's name and number as the Armi-sport importer and told me to contact him directly. I did and send my carbine to him. He reportedly cleaned and polished all the parts and sent it back. The gun worked "better" at first but over time loosened up enough to be practical.
Let me explain "practical" - when I got the gun back, it did not cycle smoothly with my loads - Starline brass/452 Goex bullets/30g FFg/OAL 1.36" - but it did cycle. It took numerous times at the range and at my local CAS events to feel comfortable with the gun and trust that it would smooth out. It now cycles smooth enough so that I can enjoy shooting it. But it took time and a very sharp, firm lever stroke!
Pvt Greg,
My suggestion would be to return the Spencer to the dealer - if it was purchased NEW - and not get involved with sending it out to anyone else for a "look see". SSS members who have sent their Spencers to other individuals have had long waits to deal with and the results have not been satisfactory.
I'm tredding lightly here as to not offend anyone, but, if your Spencer won't feed AT ALL then send it back and maybe try another.
If it was purchased as a "NEW" Spencer and it did not shoot correctly "out of the box" then the dealer should take it back and issue a full refund or replace it with another "NEW* Spencer.
Just my opinion.
Two Flints
Hello Pvt Greg!
I'm sorry I did not catch up on this sooner as I had exactly the same problem as you are experiencing. In addition, my barrel also unscrewed, but that was just the frosting on the cookie! I think Two Flints can help you find my posts on the problem I had with mine. They went from sending it in to Norton with hope, down to despair and demanding that he send my carbine back to me with the barrel tightened and sealed. At the point the barrel unscrewed, I was not real aware that there was a feeding problem, but when it came back I had exactly the same problem as you have. I am using a slug that is very much like the original bullet, but more flat nosed. I was using soft lead for the slug. When that did not work, I studied the inner workings of the Spencer action using patent drawings. I mean I studied them, read everything I could find and noted a lot about cartridge length. Studied actual size photos of original cartridges and got additional information from cartridge collectors. I ended up using a length that worked about once in ten... I then switched to wheel weight metal for the slugs and my success rate went to about one out of every three from the tube... That dang marking was still on the bullet but not as deep... My God, the brain then started to work! I have lots of linotype metal. Very hard stuff. Cast some out of linotype, and using the length I settled on when I realized that overall length was not the main culprit, loaded some up. Let me back up for a moment. You might find that your magazine will only hold about 5 rounds when fully loaded. This is due to some mickey mouse spacer rod that is screwed into the mag follower. Take your tube apart and remove this spacer. I was so disgusted at this point, I almost mailed the part to Italy! Now, back to bullet metal. The rounds I made up with linotype metal worked perfectly. Any othe problems feel free to contact me.
Me again! I must have run out of room and so I will finish my reply up here. I had no luck at all with Norton at the repair service. I finally cured the situation for me by using harder slugs. I had also lightly rounded the edges of the part of the block that was making the mark. This helped but did not cure the situation. I also found that my most accurate shooting groups came from using Trail Boss smokeless powder. Reasonable accuracy with black powder, but not the most consistent. I will tell you about this if you want to send me a note off-list. (thorsrig@cheqnet.net). I intended my Spencer to be used for deer hunting and for that a real hard slug is not the best. I thus will use a soft lead slug that I will put manually into the chamber. The tube will be loaded with linotype slugs. Point of impact is about the same at 75/100 yards. You are not alone with a prblem Spencer carbine. Mine is very smooth now after about 500 rounds, many with linotype bullets.
Good Luck
56/50 Iron
Thanks Gents - As two Flints suggested - I have returned it to the dealer and will let him work it out. It was a brand new gun so I figure I'm due a replacement that works. I got spoiled by my Romano Spencer and wishI had the scratch to buy one from him. Larry makes some outstanding guns.
Once I get somethings that actually cycles I look forward to working out a load to use!
Thanks again.
FYI - more info:
My Romano is a carbine with the blade extractor. I wanted a rifle that I could use for SASS and thus the Armi-sport mainly for the lane extractor since I'll be reloading three on the clock through the top.
Well my dealer just called Cimaron. Their take is its my problem not theirs! I guess I didn't pay them enough for a working gun.
I've always heard Cimaron was poor in the customer service department, but this beggars the imagination.
Anyone have a contact there that might be interested in doing whats right?
PvtGreg,
I sent you an Email. Please respond to it.
Who is your dealer? Are you sure he contacted Cimarron? Who did the dealer speak to at Cimarron, need to know that, too!
Didn't you get a user manual? Doesn't it indicate a guarantee of some sort?
Two Flints
Quote from: PvtGreg on January 22, 2011, 03:33:39 PM
Thanks for the advice Crossdraw, but no joy. Its almost like the round doesn't move up far enough, or the perhaps the lever doesn't work far enough on the down stroke.
If it is not feeding at all,I think you are right ,it is not opening far enough,IF you can not get any satisfaction from your dealer I sugest you remove the triger plate and polish the block stop,also look at the top and botom block and see if any thing is stoping them coming together,these Spencers are a world away from a Romano Spencer in fit and finish and require a lot of finishing work to make them feed as well,I also sugest you measure the hight of the Ramono Spencers cam and adjust your Armi Sports one to the same level and shape or as close as you can
Two suggestions:
No. 1 There is man who posts on CAS City who works part time for Cimarron. He goes by "Abilene" here on CAS City. PM him as he is a standup fella.
No. 2 I know Larry Romano as he did work for me once and is a great guy. If Cimarron won't help you then call Larry as I am sure that he can diagnose it & fix it lickety split. ;)
Hello SSS,
My concern is that, according to Pvt Greg, Cimarron told Pvt Greg's dealer to send the Spencer Carbine back to Armi Sport for repair :o :o
Read the Cimarron Repair & Return Policy, which appears on their web site. See the text defined by the red arrows that apply in this situation, I would think. Two Flints
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e29/SSSMod/SSSMod2/CimarronA.jpg)
Howdy – folks. To follow up with the earlier post.
To recap:
I purchased a Spencer rifle in 56-50 from a cowboy buddy of mine who's just started a gun store. He ordered it from Cimaron. I received it and discovered regardless of the length of the cartridge I tried the weapon would not cycle a round out of the magazine. I returned it the same day (Saturday 1-22).
The next Monday my friend called Cimaron to get the issue dealt with. All that Cimaron would do is tell him to send the gun to Armi-Sport for repair. They refused to accept it back. When my friend mentioned Cimaron's return policy they refused to honor it.
Now this is a very condensed version of two conversations that he had with them and I can confirm what happened.
My friend has sent it on to Armi-Sport at an address provided by them (Dayton Ohio BTW) and we are waiting on a response.
Given my experience, I would STRONGLY recommend that you do not buy from Cimaron.
I have no problem with Armi-Sport. Guns will have problems & Armi-Sport is honoring their warranty.
Cimaron however has acted in VERY bad faith. As I said in an earlier post I feel like I didn't pay them enough for them to care.
Regards to all. Thanks for all the posts on this subject. I will let you know when I get the weapon back to complete out the thread.
PvtGreg
All
When dealing with large companies always remember this. "Never take a no from someone that has no authority to give you a yes".
I would keep going up the corporat ladder untill I got satisfaction. Always ask for there supervisor until you get satisfaction.
Terry
I was at Cimarron today and asked Chris about this. If the gun was not fired nor damaged, Cimarron generally will replace it with another gun, if they have it in stock. Chris said they did not have any more of this particular model in stock. All Armi-Sport (Chiappa) products that have problems/defects are sent to Armi-Sport for repair. When a customer calls with an Armi-Sport problem, they are instructed to send the gun to Armi-Sport. Regarding the repair policy reproduced by Two Flints, note that it says that you should call Hill Country Precision Gunsmithing for shipping address and instructions. If you had called him instead of calling Cimarron, he would have told you the same thing, that is to ship the gun to Armi-Sport for repair. Sometimes people don't call, they just send their gun back to Cimarron. If it is an Armi-Sport, Cimarron just has to send it to Armi-Sport which does nothing but waste time. I'm not sure why you are saying that Cimarron is leaving you to take care of the problem yourself. I won't go into the email you sent, but Chris said he answered it as nicely as he could. That is all I know of this issue.
You guys are scaring the hell out of me with these tales of feeding problems with repro Spencers !!!
I've been considering ordering one imported by Taylor's as I am delighted with the fit, finish and quality of a consecutive pair of Remingtom '63 Taylor's Uberti-made 44-40s I just acquired.
Anyone with knowledge and/or experience with the Taylor's import repro Spencers? I have twice emailed Taylor's for info on the 44-40s and received immediate, courteous responses. I hear their service attitude is great.
LOL PJ,I bought one of the repro Spencers,haven't loaded or shot it yet,then found this site and started reading.Scared heck out of me too after shelling out the money for a rifle and waiting a good bit to get it.Lots of good information in the stickies at the top on overcoming the problems,just takes some time to read it all and digest it.They do attract attention when you drag one out of the case when your in a crowd of "black gun" people.
Abilene,
Here are the main points from my admittedly now biased viewpoint:
1) The gun did not work - it was purchased new.
2) We called Cimarron twice all we got was the Armi-Sport address. At that point they could have mentioned Hill Country Precision Gun Smithing, I would have done so if my oversight was pointed out. Certainly my bad for missing it. Perhaps their bad for not mentioning it? Please judge for yourselves.
Here's the email and Chris' response - please notice Chris mentions in his email that "What I wish would have happened for you and your dealer, is for the gun to come here to be looked at by us." I wish I had been asked to do so it would have at least made me feel that Cimarron wanted to make this right, but I was told explicitly to send it to Armi-Sport. Also if Chris would have offered to follow up with Armi-Sport I would have considered this a fair attempt to make this right as well.
Here's are the emails. Mine first and Chris' response. I'm also masking the email addresses & names, for I consider them private. Please judge for yourselves if you feel my email was inappropriate. I still stand by my "anti-Cimarron evangelist" stance. Telling people your bad experiences with a vendor just might save someone some of their hard earned money.
Thanks Guys I appreciate you all and this forum,
Pvt Greg
-----------My Email-----------------------------------------------------------
From: xxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 10:32 AM
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: FW: Poor customer service received from your company
From: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 7:53 PM
To: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Subject: Poor customer service received from your company
To Whom It May Concern,
On Jan 22d of this year I picked up a 56-50 Spencer that I purchased from my local gun dealer, who in turn ordered it from Cimarron, which he then received on the 20th. I picked it up with a great deal of excitement but that excitement was short lived when I discovered none of the rounds I had purchased from Buffalo Arms designed specifically fro the ArmiSport 56-50 Spencer would cycle out of the magazine. Thinking the the issue was cartridge length I attempted a number of reloads (using brass for the ArmiSport as well as the proper loading dies from Lyman) of various lengths. None of them would work either. I then properly concluded that the gun was defective and returned it to my dealer the same day. I wasn't really upset - guns sometimes have issues from the manufacturer.
However on the 24th my dealer called Cimarron in an attempt to return the weapon for an exchange. The people at Cimarron he talked to refused to accept it and when reminded of your own stated return policy they simply stated we had to deal with ArmiSport provided a phone number and hung up.
Given no other choice I decided to send the weapon to ArmiSport, where it is today. Needless to say I am very disappointed that your company chose to deal with the issue in the manner I have outlined.
My plan is to deal with ArmiSport given I have been given no choice by your company.
However I have now become an anti-Cimarron evangelist and have personally talked two cowboy shooters from purchasing any arms from your company and guided them to purchase from other distributors. Every opportunity I have had I have posted my experience on the Cascity.com forum and am preparing a letter to the Cowboy Chronicle outlining your poor customer service and what I consider blatant dishonesty. I will look for other opportunities to steer potential customers and post my experience on other forums.
Let me be clear - I don't blame Cimarron that the gun is defective - that happens. I blame you for your poor customer service and dishonesty.
Below are two links from Cascity backing up my actions. I will also copy Cimarron on my letter to the Chronicle.
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,36200.0.html
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,36392.0.html
This is the link to your stated return policy: http://www.cimarron-firearms.com/Ret-RepairPolicy.htm
Sincerely - Greg XXXXXXXXX
-----------------------------Chris' Reply-------------------------------------------------------
Greg,
I am sad to hear this story, and I wish you had the name of who was on the other end of this conversation. Normally, returns and repairs are my job. Given the dates you are stating, I was at a distributor show and not here at Cimarron. The 56-50 Spencer is probably the most error free Spencer we sell. While the Spencer is very finicky as to cartridge length, it is rare I see one that does not work correctly.
What I wish would have happened for you and your dealer, is for the gun to come here to be looked at by us. The next step would be for it to go to Armi Sport/ Chiappa in Dayton if it had a problem.
We certainly do our best to please everyone, and I strive to deliver the customer service that I want when I am buying products. I won't make excuses for anyone else here, as I do not know who it was or the circumstances.
Thank you,
XXXXXXXX
Operations Manager-Assistant Vice President
Life Member- NRA, SASS
Cimarron F A Co
Phone-XXXXXXXXXX
Fax-XXXXXXXXXXX
http://www.cimarron-firearms.com
"No Higher Standards"
Pard,
I don't know where you are coming up with blatant dishonesty accusations. As I told you before, the local gunsmith who does Cimarron repairs DOES NOT WORK on Armi-Sport guns. Armi-Sport guns go to Armi-Sport to be repaired. That is Cimarron policy. That is their agreement with Armi-Sport.
Did you notice that Chris said the gun would have been sent from Cimarron to Armi-Sport if they determined that there was a problem? Sometimes Cimarron would like to see the gun first because a lot of guns that are thought by their new owners to be defective are in fact fine (user error).
Whether it needs to be sent to Cimarron first or not is the decision of the person handling the warranty call. Plus as I said before they might decide to simply replace the gun if it has not been shot and if there was another available (there was not).
But I believe you are pretty sure yours has a problem. Given your description of the problem occurring with factory ammo as well as reloads, I would likely have told you the same thing. Sending it straight to Armi-Sport instead of via Cimarron is just saving you some time.
Would you not have bought the gun if you had known that it would need to be sent to Armi-Sport for any possible warranty work? And would you not agree that Armi-Sport is probably the best source for being able to repair their own guns?
Hi Abilene,
You seem to be very knowledgeable of Cimarron's stated Return and Repair Policy so curiosity begs the question: What does Cimarron actually do before the sale is made to insure that "Every firearm is thoroughly inspected for function and cosmetic blemish prior to shipment"?
Regarding the latter, and from the many posts I've read on SSS, the cosmetics of the Spencer coming from Armi Sport have always been top notch and excellent for fit and finish.
So, how does Cimarron check Armi Sport Spencers for "function" prior to sale? Ideally, the Armi Sport Spencer should be loaded with a "correct cartridge type", i.e., proper OAL, and the feeding mechanism thoroughly tested using those cartridges.
If everything works/feeds OK, then the customer should be informed as to the correct cartridge to use. Unless I'm missing something it sure would eliminate many of the Spencer feeding issues that seem to crop up on a regular basis, as discussed here on SSS, see the SORI threads.
Thanks to all for responding to the OP, PVT Greg. Further discussion is welcome. But, let's keep it civil at all times.
Two Flints
Call me old-fashioned, but I would expect a gun to work right out of the box. And on those rare, rare, rare occasions where one didn't, I would think the seller and manufacturer would be both astonished and falling all over themselves making it right.
--DJ
I'm with DJ!
I expect ALL R&D problems/issues to be worked out by the maker/importer BEFORE a product hits the market. I don't want to go the fitting, smoothing, polishing that should have been done at the factory.
If I get guns like that, and the maker won't back them up, next time I buy from another maker/importer.
Two Flints,
The shipping person who packs the gun gives it a visual inspection and works the action. As far as I know, the only guns that have dummy rounds loaded and worked through them are the '92's as they have had issues in the past. Most guns do not have that type of issue. The Spencer, particularly in 56-50, has been very reliable.
Quote from: Abilene on February 19, 2011, 05:10:44 PM
Two Flints,
The shipping person who packs the gun gives it a visual inspection and works the action. As far as I know, the only guns that have dummy rounds loaded and worked through them are the '92's as they have had issues in the past. Most guns do not have that type of issue. The Spencer, particularly in 56-50, has been very reliable.
From my experience and many posts by others on this forum, I will have to disagree with the 56-50 Armi Sports Spencer being very reliable. Quality control from the factory is the problem. This ranges from rifles being sold with missing parts (very unacceptable) to badly machined and out of spec parts (fine for a kit gun but not for an expensive replica).
All this could be easily fixed by Armi Sports very easily and they would have a very good product, but they deny any complaints from customers, which are many and valid, a sure way to get a bad name and go down the drain.
I've been shooting a "Taylors" Spencer in 56-50 for almost 3 years. I've never had a problem with it.
Quote from: John Smith on February 19, 2011, 06:56:44 PM
I've been shooting a "Taylors" Spencer in 56-50 for almost 3 years. I've never had a problem with it.
You are a very lucky man and also easily pleased. I was not so lucky. My rifle came missing the magazine catch, the for-stock bands were too large for the stock, it would not feed properly because the cam was out of spec, the trigger pull was 18 LBs, screws coming loose causing mis- fires These are problems that can be fix easily, and with very good results, and little time. But I can not do any thing about the twist rate in the barrel without it costing more money. And I am far from alone on these isues and others that show up.
What a sad tale. My .45LC Spencer also would not feed when it arrived. I returned it to Chiappa & they replaced the magazine tube assembly which was defective. Unfortunately I did not bother to test fire it by single loading before I returned it & when it came back it fed fine but then refused to fire. After another trip back to Dayton, OH it fed & fired OK but failed to extract consistently. My gunsmith has now had it for months trying to cure this problem he believes is inherent to the small rim on the .45LC. Oh, did I tell you that when I first brought it to him he discovered a crack in the breach! That meant a third trip back to Chiappa who replaced the barrel/breach. Maybe in a week or so I will finally have it back. I can only hope that Pvt. Gregg's feed problem can be fixed as easily as mine was & without all the other problems I have experienced. GOOD LUCK!
Seamus
The catch is that Armisport is the ONLY game in town unless you want to shell out 5K for a perfect Romano Spencer or buy an original. I see this issue as one of failure of communication. It does not matter to me who is to blame as that will not get your gun fixed. Send the gun to Taylor's/Armisport and give them a chance to make it right. ;)
I too had major feeding problems with my Spencer 56-50, but after reading all the posts here - I figured it out. Removed the breech block, and put a healthy 1/8" radius on the front edge that was cutting into the bullets nose. You see, the Spencer allows the first cartridge to move ahead of the breech block face under spring pressure, then pushes the second cartridge slighty back into the magazine as it is rotated into battery. Problem solved - re-blued the breech block and no problems since. I use the RCBS 350gr bullet and Lyman dies.
Granted, you shouldn't have to do this to a new gun - but it does solve the issue.
My two cents.
Tommy
Hi All,
This issue has been resolved - here's a link to what had to be done. This is from a separate post to the forum:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,38682.0.html (http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,38682.0.html)
Thanks to you all.
Greg