Well my dad decided to but a 58 New Army so he gave me his old Cabelas 51 Colt Navy in .44. Awesome. I just got back from BPS getting the bullets, pyrodex and other stuff I needed. including a cleaning kit. Problem is I can't get the wedge out. Right now the baby is sleeping so I'm forbidden any loud pounding. Oh well. Hopefully I can get out to shoot it tommorow!
A single tap with a lead or plastic hammer should loosen it.
I tried the back of a screwdriver handle. It looks like my dad might back banged on it with a screw driver blade at some point. Can't do anything right now, I'm the only one awake in the house so. Yeah. I'll give it a try tonight.
OK another question. The manual I found from Pietta online, said for the 1851 to use .454 and 12-15 grains of powder. I guess the manual my dad has says .451 and 28 grains of pyrodex. he has fired the .454 balls through it before, just fine. though I thought 28 grains a little hot for the brass frame. Any idea of how I should do this would be great.
The ball needs to shave a bit of lead going into the cylinder to reduce the chance of a chain fire. It should not be a wrestling match however to get it to go in place.
28 grains probably won't blow it up, but 15 grains may be a lot more fun in the long one. Also, with hot loads you will have more problems with caps blowing off and jamming up the works.
There is nothing wrong with starting on the low side.
Manuals for imports can be funny at times. Sometimes they are produced by the manufacturer, and sometimes they are produced by the importer. Sometimes an importer may have a "generic manual" that they believe applies to many guns when in fact it applies to none of them very accurately.
OD,
That is an awfully light load for a .44 revolver. 15 to 21 grains is more like a Navy model round ball load(.36 caliber).
Be careful, the problem is not the light load, but whether or not you can seat a ball against the powder and compress it using your frame mounted loading rammer. If you can seat a ball without a gap with at least light compression I'm sure it will work safely.
Someone else with experience shooting mouse loads in a .44 will have to help you here, 15 grains is half of what I normally shoot in a match. I don't think I can seat a ball over 15 grains on any of my '60s using the barrel mounted loader, and 12 grains is super light for a .44.
Are you sure that the load you listed wasn't for a standard Pietta '51? That's a .36 caliber pistol. I mean that is really less than what I use with round balls in my Navy models.
Someone will probably have some applicable experience. Just keep waiting.
Regards,
Mako
Quote from: Mako on December 26, 2010, 09:48:04 PM
OD,
That is an awfully light load for a .44 revolver. 15 to 21 grains is more like a Navy model round ball load(.36 caliber).
Be careful, the problem is not the light load, but whether or not you can seat a ball against the powder and compress it using your frame mounted loading rammer. If you can seat a ball without a gap with at least light compression I'm sure it will work safely.
Someone else with experience shooting mouse loads in a .44 will have to help you here, 15 grains is half of what I normally shoot in a match. I don't think I can seat a ball over 15 grains on any of my '60s using the barrel mounted loader, and 12 grains is super light for a .44.
Are you sure that the load you listed wasn't for a standard Pietta '51? That's a .36 caliber pistol. I mean that is really less than what I use with round balls in my Navy models.
Someone will probably have some applicable experience. Just keep waiting.
Regards,
Mako
The manual I found used that charge for a .454 ball. S0 maybe I'll experiment. THanks though.
Howdy
As long as you can shave off some lead, either .451 or .454 balls should be OK. I find I can use either in my 44 cal Pietta Armies. Of course, your pistol may have chamber throats of slightly different diameters.
If your 44 has a brass frame, be careful with heavy loads. I have a very similar pistol, a brass framed 44 cal 'Navy' I bought way back in 1968. Too many hot loads over the years and I did stretch the frame. The barrel now points up noticeably when the wedge is driven to the correct position to narrow the barrel/cylinder gap down where it needs to be. I either stretched the frame, or pulled the arbor out somewhat, but the pistol is pretty much a wall hanger now.
I used to regularly put 30 grains of Goex FFFg in it, which eventually proved to be too much for the brass frame.
Just got a manual from Pietta and Cabela the other day.
What you indicate is what is in my manuals as well. I would go by the Cabela catalog. Pietta only show 9 - 12 grains for the .36.
I talked to a Ruger shooter and he loads 15grs in his ROA for competition. I thought that if he could do it I could. Not the case. If you load with the on-board rammer you will need at least 20 grs of powder and an 1/8" wad to get good compression in a Pietta 44 cal.. Any less and you will get the double whomp of an uncompressed load.
If you load off of the gun with a loading machine, then whatever works? I have no experience with loading machines.
Good point about the loading machine. I am using one with my Uberti.
I don't use the rammer on the gun much so I am not 100% sure what would happen if I did. My favorite load at the moment is 15 grains of 3F Goex (scale calibrated volumetric measure) with a lubed 1/8" felt wad. Hotter loads tend to cause problems in it with caps jamming.
Quote from: Noz on December 27, 2010, 09:10:06 AM
I talked to a Ruger shooter and he loads 15grs in his ROA for competition. I thought that if he could do it I could. Not the case. If you load with the on-board rammer you will need at least 20 grs of powder and an 1/8" wad to get good compression in a Pietta 44 cal.. Any less and you will get the double whomp of an uncompressed load.
If you load off of the gun with a loading machine, then whatever works? I have no experience with loading machines.
Yep, Noz is right. Like I said can't be, it be done with an unmodified frame mounted loading plunger.
I didn't even talk about off frame loading (which is what I normally do) because our new friend obviously doesn't have such a loader. I just know you can't load less than about 25 grains on the pistol with a round ball. Conicals are longer and the plunger will reach.
I have seen pictures of Ruger shooters pistols have added extensions to their pistol's plunger to allow lighter charges.
~Mako
Went out and shot my first blackpowder firearm ever! I think I'm hooked. I only loaded and fired a total of 3 shots.( come on its 14 degrees out) I need to find a better way to measure powder, but I think it'll work better if I'm not shivering in the cold. I loaded 15 grains and used the loading lever on the revolver with the .454 ball. Loaded very easily. I had some trouble with the CCI #10 caps, as they are hard to seat and keep even. The recoil I would compare to a 9mm auto. So I'm hoping to experiment with the charge over the next few days. Thanks for all your help everyone!
In my 44 Colts('60 Army and '51 44 cal Pietta) and Remington, I always shoot 28-30 grains of FFF, anything less seems to be a waste of time. My 2nd Model Dragoon gets 36-40 grains of FFF) I have one 36 cal '51 Navy Colt and 20-22 grains of FFF is the load. In the 44's, as stated by others, less than 20 grains might be tough to seat with the rammer, all my loading is by rammer, don't have any desire for the 'gizmo's' sold to off load-takes part of the fun of shooting away. Using 28-30 grains isnot a "Magnum" load. Many new to shooting black powder percussion revolvers have the idea they will be shooting "Dirty Harry" 44 mag type rounds. My wife, daughters, and my Dad who is 94 have shot my 44 cap and ball revolvers with no real problem. I've played around trying less and more than the 28-30 grain loads, but found nothing gained or lost.The 28-30 grain loads are accurate and pleasent to shoot, but if your revolver is brass framed, what has been mentioned about frame damage may be a factor. The idea of some to shoot 'mouse', 'marshmellow', 'poof-ting', etc loads in competition are letting themselves down for what shooting was and really is. I can understand some who may have physical restrictions and such, but when I see good healthy, physically capable men of the male gender shooting such rounds, well no written comment here. I didn't shoot such groups such as SASS in its early days, but from what I've read and heard, degrading to sub loads was one of the things that degraded it from 'what it use to be'(this'll probably raise the hair of some of ya, nothing personal). Pietta and Uberti in their manuels both list sub loads to cover themselves from shooters who don't follow safe shooting pracitices, their loads are way below the pressure tests they perform. ODGreen, if you can find a shooter in your area who has shot before, just ask him for help in loading, shooting , and cleaning-I'm sure they would be glad to help. A good book you can get on Amazon and other sources is "Percussion Pistols and Revolvers" by Mike Cumpston- a wealth of info on history, shooting, etc.
OK my light charge is not from "lack of manly attributes" so much as it is inexperience, caution and love of my extremities. I've worked my way up to 20 grains. My issues are : long term wear on a brass frame, and not blowing my face off. Right now I need to work on finding a funnel. Wife vetoed my earlier attempt at one.
Howdy
Don't bother with the funnel. I have used this type of powder flask for years. The spout measures out the powder for you. You point it down at the ground and cover the end with your finger. Then you push the button which fills the spout with powder. Then you release the button and point it up again. You have a measured charge of powder waiting to be poured into a chamber. I think mine pours out about 30 grains of powder. If you want less powder, you cut the spout down. Once you get good at it you manipulate the flask while holding the pistol with the other hand. The flask will hold around 1/2 pound of powder, which should get you through a bunch of stages without having to fill it up again. Just be sure to empty the powder out of the flask when you are done, or the powder will attract moisture and corrode the dickens out of the flask. Ask me how I know.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=brass+powder+flask&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=ivns&resnum=1&biw=1024&bih=555&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=5807914482810842387&ei=XR8ZTYK6HcT58AahzKHsDQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEgQ8wIwAA# (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=brass+powder+flask&hl=en&safe=off&prmd=ivns&resnum=1&biw=1024&bih=555&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=5807914482810842387&ei=XR8ZTYK6HcT58AahzKHsDQ&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CEgQ8wIwAA#)
Certainly 30 grains of powder behind a 44 cal ball is no magnum load. Think of it for a minute. With 45 Colt, I load somewhere around 38 grains of powder under a 250 grain bullet. Now you are talking recoil. But a 44 cal round ball only weighs around 150 grains or so. Put 30 grains of powder behind it and you are shooting something about like a 38 Special. The other thing is, with a round ball, there is no mechanical crimp holding the ball in place. Only the friction fit of the ball in the chamber across a tiny section of the ball. So much less 'bullet pull' than with a cartridge.
I had not fired a 44 Cap & Ball for a long time when I picked up my Pietta Armies last year. With a 44 cal ball over 30 grains of powder the recoil is pretty much like a light 38 Special load. Certainly not a magnum.
I just think I would be a little bit careful of shooting 30 grains of powder in a brass framed gun a whole lot. It took a long time, but it did stretch the frame on my old brass 44 'Navy'.
So would it be fair to say that 20-25 grains is probably about right?
Quote from: ODgreen on December 27, 2010, 03:15:30 PM
... I loaded 15 grains and used the loading lever on the revolver with the .454 ball. Loaded very easily. I had some trouble with the CCI #10 caps, as they are hard to seat and keep even. The recoil I would compare to a 9mm auto. ...
Quote from: ODgreen on December 27, 2010, 04:55:34 PM
OK my light charge is not from "lack of manly attributes" so much as it is inexperience, caution and love of my extremities. I've worked my way up to 20 grains. My issues are : long term wear on a brass frame, and not blowing my face off. Right now I need to work on finding a funnel. Wife vetoed my earlier attempt at one.
OD,
I don't think you understand what we are telling you. An undercharge can be MORE dangerous that filling the chamber up to the brim and seating a ball. I mean that literally and very seriously. You put 15 grains in and don't have the ball pushed down against it and you create the potential for detonation. Black powder should have no air space.
You seated the balls easily which is no surprise to any of us, my question is how do you know it was seated? The only way for you to know is by putting something on top of the ball and use your lever again (don't use another ball). Now compare that to a ball seated without a spacer. If the spaced ball goes deeper it means you were bottoming out the loading lever on the barrel slot and not the ball compressing the powder.
Don't jump to the conclusion we were calling you wimpy for "unmanly" loads. We were concerned you were creating a potential grenade by attempting to be "safe." If you love your extremities, then you need to listen to the hundreds of years combined experience that have answered you so far.
We want you to keep your fingers, eyes, etc. as well.
Have fun but make sure you are really seating that ball.
Regards,
Mako
Right now EMF company is running a special on powder flask spouts as advertized in the cowboy Chronicle. I think it is $5(or maybe $10 but I think $5 is correct) for an assortment of sizes. There ought to be a 20, 25, and 30gr spout and maybe even a 15gr one. That is the best deal I've ever seen. If I didn't already have a huge assortment already I'd spring for it.
Quote from: Mako on December 27, 2010, 08:56:17 PM
OD,
I don't think you understand what we are telling you. An undercharge can be MORE dangerous that filling the chamber up to the brim and seating a ball. I mean that literally and very seriously. You put 15 grains in and don't have the ball pushed down against it and you create the potential for detonation. Black powder should have no air space.
You seated the balls easily which is no surprise to any of us, my question is how do you know it was seated? The only way for you to know is by putting something on top of the ball and use your lever again (don't use another ball). Now compare that to a ball seated without a spacer. If the spaced ball goes deeper it means you were bottoming out the loading lever on the barrel slot and not the ball compressing the powder.
Don't jump to the conclusion we were calling you wimpy for "unmanly" loads. We were concerned you were creating a potential grenade by attempting to be "safe." If you love your extremities, then you need to listen to the hundreds of years combined experience that have answered you so far.
We want you to keep your fingers, eyes, etc. as well.
Have fun but make sure you are really seating that ball.
Regards,
Mako
Mako,
I completely understand that. Trust me this is no manly chest thumping fit. I honestly don't know if its seated or not. I do know that it fired at 15 grains and at 20. I started with what the online Pietta manual told me. The manual my father has that actually goes with the revolver(don't ask me why the manual and revolver are seperate) says to use 28 grains of pyrodex. I'm just trying to find the safe charge that seats the ball correctly and won't send peices of brass into my face. I'm not overly worried about recoil, or anything. I just want to be safe. Thanks for all the help so far, and any more you can give.
Just found out 25 grains works perfect. no gap that I can tell as the loading lever doesn't go all the way in.
I use the same powder measure that Driftwood recommended. I love it. It works awesome. When you get it, order a few different sized "snouts" to go with it to make load experimenting easier.
Hey ODgreen, To clear up any thing I posted before, I wasn't indicating by your concern I was questioning your 'manliness' or any other conotations that you may have read into my post. If thought, many apologies from here in Iowa to wherever you are. It is good you are checking on safe loads, how to do, etc., rather than do as some have and jump into shooting a cap an' ball by not doing any research, asking questions, etc. Many have had 'nasty' and/or unpleasant results by not doing so. 'Safety First'! My comment reference 'mouse, poof-ting, etc' loads was in reference to many who shoot such loads hoping to reduce time and improve scores by the reduced recoil. """"They "ain't" shootin em like they were made to be loaded and shot"""""!!!!!!(again, nothing personal). I'm not advocating full, max loads, ie. 'as much as ya can stuff in the chamber', but there is a happy medium. With you having a brass framed revolver, a reduced load from the common 28-30 grains most shoot in a 44 would be a good idea. If your using Pyrodex, never used it, so can't say what grain load would be good, but check it out as you have been. I've never had one, but saw a shootin pards '51 Navy go south and have heard of many who have had problems with them by shooting sustained heavier loads. In order to get good compression with a reduced load, try some felt 44 caliber wads between ball and powder. They help to fill space, keep the bore a little cleaner, and eliminate greasing the ball after seating. They are sold in most places that carry black powder shooting supplies. Get a 50-100 rd bag and give em a try. If you like them and want to continue in shooting c&b, places like Midsouth Shooters Supply sell em by the 1000(alot cheaper). I use them all the time to eliminate greasing the ball after seating. Have fun and enjoy, in some respects, I enjoy my c&b revolvers over my cartridge ones. Yers, Crow Choker
Quote from: Crow Choker on December 28, 2010, 09:25:48 AM
Hey ODgreen, To clear up any thing I posted before, I wasn't indicating by your concern I was questioning your 'manliness' or any other conotations that you may have read into my post. If thought, many apologies from here in Iowa to wherever you are. It is good you are checking on safe loads, how to do, etc., rather than do as some have and jump into shooting a cap an' ball by not doing any research, asking questions, etc. Many have had 'nasty' and/or unpleasant results by not doing so. 'Safety First'! My comment reference 'mouse, poof-ting, etc' loads was in reference to many who shoot such loads hoping to reduce time and improve scores by the reduced recoil. """"They "ain't" shootin em like they were made to be loaded and shot"""""!!!!!!(again, nothing personal). I'm not advocating full, max loads, ie. 'as much as ya can stuff in the chamber', but there is a happy medium. With you having a brass framed revolver, a reduced load from the common 28-30 grains most shoot in a 44 would be a good idea. If your using Pyrodex, never used it, so can't say what grain load would be good, but check it out as you have been. I've never had one, but saw a shootin pards '51 Navy go south and have heard of many who have had problems with them by shooting sustained heavier loads. In order to get good compression with a reduced load, try some felt 44 caliber wads between ball and powder. They help to fill space, keep the bore a little cleaner, and eliminate greasing the ball after seating. They are sold in most places that carry black powder shooting supplies. Get a 50-100 rd bag and give em a try. If you like them and want to continue in shooting c&b, places like Midsouth Shooters Supply sell em by the 1000(alot cheaper). I use them all the time to eliminate greasing the ball after seating. Have fun and enjoy, in some respects, I enjoy my c&b revolvers over my cartridge ones. Yers, Crow Choker
No blood, no foul. Where you from in Iowa? I too happen to inhabit that currently snow filled land. I just did a test with 25 grains and it seemed to seat well and fire well. Loud as hell though. Should of put the ear plugs in. Right now I'm trying to find a way to make paper cartridges, mostly because I'm impatient and my hands seem to shake when dealing with an explosive(one of the many reasons I stayed away from EOD in the Army). Wish it was warmer so I could play some more, but later this week might be good.
North Central--I'll send ya a PM(persoanl message on the CAS forum web). Yep, It's snowfilled. Marvel at all the main news orgs that have been spending half or better of their allotted 1/2 hr evening news talking about the blizzard and snow on the east coast. When we have one here in Iowa and/or the midwest, they spend a few minutes on it. BUT when they have one, well it's like nothing anybody ever had. Wanna say "hey guys, we deal with stuff like that most winters, come to Iowa for five years or so. Was snowed in for 2 1/2 days earlier this month, didn't have CBS or whatever bigwig reporters here in Iowa 'Wowing' about that. Quess we have more 'bark on our hide' than some-no offense to you east coast shooters!!
Quote from: Crow Choker on December 28, 2010, 10:06:56 AM
North Central--I'll send ya a PM(persoanl message on the CAS forum web). Yep, It's snowfilled. Marvel at all the main news orgs that have been spending half or better of their allotted 1/2 hr evening news talking about the blizzard and snow on the east coast. When we have one here in Iowa and/or the midwest, they spend a few minutes on it. BUT when they have one, well it's like nothing anybody ever had. Wanna say "hey guys, we deal with stuff like that most winters, come to Iowa for five years or so. Was snowed in for 2 1/2 days earlier this month, didn't have CBS or whatever bigwig reporters here in Iowa 'Wowing' about that. Quess we have more 'bark on our hide' than some-no offense to you east coast shooters!!
No kidding. When I was in Basic, it was february and pretty chilly. But if I complained, the DS said" You're from Iowa, you should be used to the cold" I replied( to my great misfortune) "In Iowa, we're smart enough to put on our coats"
OD,
25 grains is a good load, a lot of .44 shooters use that. Glad it's working out for you.
Happy shooting,
Mako
Now if I only had time to go load all the chambers and fire it.
Just had my first " oh@%!^%@^!~~!" moment. Went to fire the next to last shot and the hammer jammed. Great. Must have been debris from one of the other caps. Managed to work it out. Was real worried there for a moment. Also learned that if you're gonna seal the chambers with crisco, to make sure you wipe it all off your hands. Kinda makes it hard to hang on to a bucking revolver.
Howdy Again
Forget the Crisco. Way back when I started shooting C&B in 1968, slathering Crisco all over the seated balls was standard operating procedure. It was supposed to help prevent chain fires and supposed to keep the fouling in the bore soft.
In fact, the heat from the shot and gasses blasting out of the barrel/cylinder gap melts the Crisco in the next chamber, so you are left with a thin, runny layer that isn't much good at anything. But that's what all the magazine articles said back then, so that's what I used to do. And as you say, you have greasy hands which don't help much.
I stopped shooting pistols for around twenty years, and in the intervening time Ox Yoke brought out their Wonder Wads. When I bought a pound of powder to start shooting C&B again, the store owner told me about Wonder Wads. He said to forget the Crisco, just put a Wonder Wad between the powder and the ball. So that's what I do now.
Wonder Wads are not on the market any longer, but there are several other brands. Placed against the powder and then the ball seated on top, the wad scrubs the bore enough as it comes down the barrel that Crisco in the bore is not necessary. And I know everybody is going to jump on me and tell me that chain fires do not happen at the ball, but trust me, if you have a big enough dent in a ball so that there is a void between the ball and the chamber wall when the ball is seated, you have a nice path for an errant spark to follow down to the powder. In that situation, about 1/8" of wool or felt makes a much better spark arrestor than a thin, runny layer of Crisco.
Forget the Crisco, get some wads.
Minority opinion here again...one can easily load 10-15 grains of powder in any .44 revolver. Simply top off the black powder in the cylinder with the volume of cornmeal or cream of wheat to bring the height up to allow the ball to be rammed tight. The tartget shooters been doing this for many years...Good way to start younguns, too. Myself, I generally use 25 grains in my 1860's and NM Remington.
Criso works great for keeping fouling soft also....to prevent the big mess others experience, just throttle-back on the amount of criso applied. A small lump on top of the ball, spread around the periphery, is all that is needed. In fact, straight criso will not run out & smear your holster even in hot weather (as I've read in books) when applied correctly. Hint.....If you have grease blowing down the sides of your revolver after shooting...your using too much ;)
Regards,
Slim
(Former IA country boy)
Quote from: Montana Slim on December 28, 2010, 09:49:34 PM
Minority opinion here again...one can easily load 10-15 grains of powder in any .44 revolver. The tartget shooters been doing this for many years...Good way to start younguns, too. Myself, I generally use 25 grains in my 1860's and NM Remington...
Montana,
I think you misunderstood what he was being told. Your post directly addresses the issue,
QuoteSimply top off the black powder in the cylinder with the volume of cornmeal or cream of wheat to bring the height up to allow the ball to be rammed tight.
It wasn't the charge that was being questioned, it was whether or not he could ram it tight. Your statement actually shows you are with the majority as far as seating the ball goes.
Regards,
Mako
Montana,
Yeah I figured I had too much crisco, but atm I have no real other options. And I married an Iowa Country Girl, once and Iowan, always an Iowan. I was born in Texas, but I'll always call Iowa home.
So if i get this right, I could go to Walmart and get some felt, cut it to size and use it?
You are better off to go to Durofelt.com for your felt the Walmart stuff is dacron and will melt and make a mess.
Driftwood and I have a history of mild disagreements but I am with him totally on this one. Bad alloy and bad casting can create voids in the balls that will allow the spark to ignite the next round in the cylinder. Not a good thing.
It took four chain fires(one additional chamber each time) before I figured out what was happening.
Those that draw themselves up to their full heigth, lay their hands over their heart and state unequivocally that all chain fires come from loose caps are full of bull hockey.
I've corrected my casting and my alloy choice and still use a homemade felt wad under the ball.
Top of the Morning to ya ODgreen!!! Are ya gettin ready for the rain turning to freezin rain turning to snow comin Thurs-Friday. Rather see it just stay 20-25* and just get some snow-that rain on top of all this snow, then more snow makes a nasty mess. Anyway to the business at hand.--------Don't believe Walmart carries heavy enough felt for making wads. Ya need around fairly stiff felt approx 1/8" thick for wads and then a steel punch (have read a 7/16" works for 44) for 'punchin' them out. Ya follow all this up by soaking them in one of the many concoctions of beeswax/pariffin/olive oil, etc for lube purposes. Old felt hats of the right thickness will work-check out 'junk' stores, rummage sales(have picked some up at such places when my wife 'drags' me to them!). Punchin out my own wads is on my 'gonna do' list, have felt and punches, just on back burner. Check out the post on page 2 of the 'Dark Side'. It is the 6th one down from top started by ZVP on Nov 4th labled "Crisco vs Felt Wads". Might answer some of your questions about wads. 'Noz' posted a place where you can get heavy felt-durofelt.com. I checked this am and they are closed untill 02-11-11. Re your 25.0 grain load, as other advised is a good load and should work good for ya. The use of cream of wheat, corn meal etc. as Mont. Slim advised for reduced charges works, but it's an extra step, more to deal with. Tried it before, didn't care for the extra hassle. But what ever works for ya, go for it.
Yeah, from the "rammed-tight" perspective...totaly agree. Its a must for consistent performance. A "loose" load will give a misfire at worst & hangfire at best ...but, it will tell ya how good your follow-through is.
For those that prefer felt wads....you can buy .410 shotgun felt cushion wads from several places & lube them yourself. The material is high quality & the price is right when you buy in bulk. If you buy the 1/4" wads, they easily split in half. Check the cost from any of the shotgun reloading houses. I recommend a very stiff lube for felt wads. The combination of a "tight" load can cause problems with lubed felt wads given the right combination of conditions.
Regards,
Slim
HiYa Montana Slim-I'm courious as a cat as to what problems you refer to in your last post. I have some idea's, but would like to hear from you. Also, what area of Ol' Iowa did you 'hail' from, courious again. I'm from up in the north central area, if I could throw a rock 30 miles, it would land in Minnesota. Yers, CC
Quote from: Montana Slim on December 29, 2010, 09:12:16 AM
The combination of a "tight" load can cause problems with lubed felt wads given the right combination of conditions.
Regards,
Slim
Quote from: Crow Choker on December 29, 2010, 08:59:17 AM
Top of the Morning to ya ODgreen!!! Are ya gettin ready for the rain turning to freezin rain turning to snow comin Thurs-Friday. Rather see it just stay 20-25* and just get some snow-that rain on top of all this snow, then more snow makes a nasty mess. Anyway to the business at hand.--------Don't believe Walmart carries heavy enough felt for making wads. Ya need around fairly stiff felt approx 1/8" thick for wads and then a steel punch (have read a 7/16" works for 44) for 'punchin' them out. Ya follow all this up by soaking them in one of the many concoctions of beeswax/pariffin/olive oil, etc for lube purposes. Old felt hats of the right thickness will work-check out 'junk' stores, rummage sales(have picked some up at such places when my wife 'drags' me to them!). Punchin out my own wads is on my 'gonna do' list, have felt and punches, just on back burner. Check out the post on page 2 of the 'Dark Side'. It is the 6th one down from top started by ZVP on Nov 4th labled "Crisco vs Felt Wads". Might answer some of your questions about wads. 'Noz' posted a place where you can get heavy felt-durofelt.com. I checked this am and they are closed untill 02-11-11. Re your 25.0 grain load, as other advised is a good load and should work good for ya. The use of cream of wheat, corn meal etc. as Mont. Slim advised for reduced charges works, but it's an extra step, more to deal with. Tried it before, didn't care for the extra hassle. But what ever works for ya, go for it.
REady as I'll ever be. You gonna be out in it?
Howdy ODgreen,
When yer ready to shoot that front stuffer without all the bother of wads, lube cookies and over ball smears, take a good long look at the EPP-UG bullets. They emulate RB performance but eliminate the lube bother. Simply lube/size them just like you would do with any cartridge bp bullet and take them to the match in snap cap vials. Simply dump in powder and seat the lube/sized bullet and yer good to go.
When you want a little more whump, take a look at the DD/PUK/ROA-II bullet design with it's dual rebate base.
Keep on shootn'.
DD-DLoS
Personally, I believe that the felt wads may eliminate chainfires but they don't do diddly for keeping the fouling soft nor lubeing the front of the cylinder and arbor. I just make up a bunch a small balls of my BP lube and smear them on top of the balls. Soft enough to melt when fired into the bore but hard enough to keep from melting all over the gun and your hands. Also eliminates the lube contamination issue. Works for me. May not work with all BP lubes, though.
Hey Slim,
Happy New Year!
I agree with you if you're talking about wimpy wads like the "Wonder Wad" varieties. But if you take a stiff piece of 1/8" felt from Dura Felt and then totally soak it in a good quality lube we all make from Bees Wax, Paraffin and Mutton Tallow or some other natural oil based source and you can get a wad that lubricates pretty well. I have been using these wads for years with excellent results. I get lube on the arbor, a grease star on the muzzle and the fouling remains soft. In addition, the wad seems to help keep the fouling down by sweeping the bore each shot.
I will put lube on the balls as you described when forced to. I had to do so recently when I forgot to refill my shooting box wad container before a match and realized I would come up short for the number of stages. After a quick count I determined I could use wads in four chambers on each pistol for all of the stages and use some lube I had in a tin to cover the first chamber on each cylinder.
The guns were a bit greasier than usual and I had to wipe them even more between stages. The reason I wanted it on the first chamber on each pistol is that I have found the blast from the previous chambers melts the lube or anything else at the front of the unfired chambers. Before I went to wads (which is now a long time ago) shooting was considerably messier. I find the wads are no messier to use than the EPP-UG bullets where I will get some lube on my hands from handling the bullets.
Before I ran across the source for the felt which has probably now been posted on every board that has a BP forum I was using hat felt and stacking two wads.
Below are what my wads look like. The three on the right in both pictures are the as punched wads, the ones on the left are saturated in lube. If you look closely you can see the lube has fully inundated the wad and the lube is even caked on the surface.
Happy New Year to all,
Mako
Quote from: Dick Dastardly on December 30, 2010, 09:04:40 AM
When yer ready to shoot that front stuffer without all the bother of wads, lube cookies and over ball smears, take a good long look at the EPP-UG bullets. They emulate RB performance but eliminate the lube bother. Simply lube/size them just like you would do with any cartridge bp bullet and take them to the match in snap cap vials. Simply dump in powder and seat the lube/sized bullet and yer good to go.
For those of us who haven't lubed/sized a cartridge bp bullet before, but are interested in these cap-and-"ball" bullets... what exactly is involved in sizing them? Could one simply seat them as usual and let the cylinder shave the excess, or is there enough excess that it needs to be sized with some sort of device before you stick it in the cylinder?
-Mad Dog
Mad Dog,
They are supposed to cast at a diameter of .455, but sometime a bit under. I have shot 5 from a sample pack that were not sized, I filled the groove with bore butter at loading. Those still fit, but I need tell you that I use an off pistol loader instead of the barrel mounted loading lever and plunger. I'm sure you could have seated them with the pistol mounted arrangement.
I have used EPP-UG bullets that were lubed and sized that I believe came from Springfield Slim. They were given to me so I am not positive, but I know the pard who gave them to me uses bullets from Springfield Slim. One of the main reasons to run them through the lubrisizer is to lubricate them, which is probably why Dick mentioned it.
I didn't respond just because I have used the bullet in question, but because I have done what you asked about. I have very limited experience experience (5 bullets) with unsized bullets, but it is some experience.
Perhaps Dick or others will fill you in a bit better on the sizing requirements. I'd be willing to bet there might be one or more people who cast their own and just pan lube them.
Regards,
Mako
A personal observation on brass frames. My advice is if the .451 shaves a good ring of lead off, use it. If the .454 is real hard to seat, the loading itself is causing stress on the brass frame, in my opinion, as bad or worse than shooting full power loads in it. Twenty to twenty-five grains of FF or FFF should be more than adequate without undue stress on the frame.
Quote from: Mako on December 31, 2010, 06:29:49 PM
One of the main reasons to run them through the lubrisizer is to lubricate them, which is probably why Dick mentioned it.
Cool. I had figured on pan-lubing them... of course its all moot till I actually get my pistol :) (looked at one at the gun store with my wife yesterday... I was showing her how you would load it and she said "I can see why an engineer would like that gun". I'll go check out springfield slim too... might make sense to try some before jumping into the casting game!
-Mad-Dog
The driving bands on the EPP-UG bullets are small enough that they easily size to fit when pan lubed only. This is true for most fairly soft alloys including wheel weight metal. Of course, they can be cast from dead soft lead and then will easily seat with the gun rammer.
The main purpose for lube/sizing the EPP-UG was to install the lube. I size them for a nice snug interference fit on my ROAs and they never back out under recoil with even the strongest bp loads possible. The lube is held captive in the chamber with the driving bands and it is released only when that chamber is fired. This captive lube band further assists the two driving bands to assure that there won't be a chain fire from the cylinder face end.
I've found this bullet to be extremely accurate from my C&B guns. It's also very accurate from my Thompson Center 45 Cal Seneca front stuffer rifle. Further, it shoots extremely well when loaded in cartridges. I shot it at two different annual matches last season and shot them CLEAN. I've got the feather to prove it.
DD-DLoS
I have shot something over 2,000 rounds through my ROA'S and 1858 Remington's in the past year or so. All the bullets were from DD's little 150 grain Pecos Pete bullet mould and lubed by a Lyman lubersizer. In my opinion there is no better bullet for a cap & ball gun.
If you have a lubersizer use about a .457 die to lube the bullet and go shoot. You don't have to worry about wads, Crisco, bear grease or anything else. Pour in the powder seat the bullet, cap and shoot. A lot less fuss and equipment to keep up with.
I made a tapered lubersizer die that sizes the base band about .435 and leaves the top band alone at about .457. This allows me to use the bullet in both my .44's and .45's. The bullet performs very well in both.
I know there are people out there who prefer the traditional way of loading and shooting cap & ball guns and I certainly respect that. But, if you are shooting these pistols in CAS matches you can really speed up your loading time and reduce hassles by using these bullets.
I didn't mean for this to sound like a commercial for Dick and his bullets but I really like them.
Lucky ;D
A good friend of mine and a fine pard shoots EPP-UGs in his open tops. The dang chambers are a mite tight to fit the rebate, so he loads 'em upside down. They shoot fine that way and he can use them in his other guns without modification. Talk about versatile. . .
DD-DLoS
DD; I tried the upside down trick. ONCE. The accuracy was blah! I now have a loading stand, so I will try it again.