Even though this may have been introduced as a gamer alternative I am curious as to how much black powder can be loaded and still seat a bullet? Anyone load it up to it's potential? Inquiring minds want to know.
Thank you.
I use 20gr (1.3cc) of Schuetzen fffg with 150gr Big Lube, works great. I'm sure it will hold a little more with a compression die. Good Luck
Jefro :)
Howdy StrawHat ,
You're no gamer with Cowboy 45 Special ammo. It has the same internal volume as the "man stopper" 45 ACP used in the Colt 1911. That makes it a very respectably powerful cartridge.
I also load it with 1.3cc of FFFg Holy Black under either J/P 45-200 or EPP-UG 150 grain Big Lube®LLC bullets. It's my favorite ammo to use with my 1860 open tops with Kirst Konverter cylinders. Shoots like a laser. I shot clean at the Wisconsin State Championship match with it.
Happy shooting,
DD-DLoS
Quote from: StrawHat on December 21, 2010, 05:57:41 AM
Even though this may have been introduced as a gamer alternative I am curious as to how much black powder can be loaded and still seat a bullet? Anyone load it up to it's potential? Inquiring minds want to know.
Thank you.
Since you have already made up your mind that the round is "a gamer alternative," what's the point of responding?
Why would you go to 45Cal if you were a 'gamer?' Don't make a lick of sense as my old long since departed American friend used to say. Gamers use 38 Specials (some even use 32s) and only use Black when it is a Black Powder only shoot.
Quote from: fourfingersofdeath on December 21, 2010, 04:53:17 PM
Why would you go to 45Cal if you were a 'gamer?' Don't make a lick of sense as my old long since departed American friend used to say. Gamers use 38 Specials (some even use 32s) and only use Black when it is a Black Powder only shoot.
What's with all this gamer talk ???, nothing wrong with .38, 32/20 or C.45Sp. Everyone seems to think the Colt .45 was the big deal in the real west. Maybe for revlovers, but so was the historically accurate 32/20, it put alot more meat on the table than any .45. :o I've been shooting nothing but real BP with the 38sp Snakebites for years, loaded up with 3f it produces plenty of bang and smoke. When I do shoot .45 revolvers I use the C.45Sp, just as historically accurate as those .45 rifles. :D :D ;D I ain't hunting elk ::) does that make me a gamer ??? :P I think not ;D :P
Jefro :) Relax-Enjoy
Quote from: Pettifogger on December 21, 2010, 03:54:57 PM
Since you have already made up your mind that the round is "a gamer alternative," what's the point of responding?...
And folks wonder why newcomers get turned off to the shooting sports? I see sharing information is a concept foreign to you. I have not made up my mind, I am looking for information so as to compare this round with others I currently load.
This is from the website of Adirondack Jack's Trading Post
" ...It also happens that by doing so, the case
capacity under a 250 grain bullet is cut by just about half, making it a dandy,
soft shooting round with smokeless powder, black powder, or subs in the
process.
Thus was born the Cowboy .45 Special. Designed to reduce case capacity
available under the bullet by as much as 50%, this little beauty runs very
consistently and accurately with smokeless loads as light as 600 - 650 fps
with 200 grain bullets. A current favorite recipe runs a 200 grainer at 650
fps with an extreme spread of SIX, even with progressively loaded ammo
and volumetrically dispensed charges (no hand weighing and single stage
loading to artificially tighten results). A real sweet 520 fps load with 160
grainers is possible too!... "
From what he writes it seems that the load is indeed a powderpuff or is 500 or 600 fps a heavy load? I do not shoot CAS or any competition anymore, I got tired of the gamers in all the disciplines. My intent is to see what the potential is for the cartridge. I understand the idea was to amke a 45 ACP length cartridge with a 45 long Colt rim. Great idea, I just don't know what the capacity for the ACP is when using black powder.
DD, thanks for the info. I will have to translate cc into grains but I can do that. I have my own thoughts as to what bullets I will use but again, thanks for the info.
Quote from: StrawHat on December 22, 2010, 06:09:21 AM
DD, thanks for the info. I will have to translate cc into grains but I can do that. I have my own thoughts as to what bullets I will use but again, thanks for the info.
You should be able to get 20 to 25 grains in the case depending on the powder and compression.
Lucky ;D
Quote from: StrawHat on December 22, 2010, 06:09:21 AM
And folks wonder why newcomers get turned off to the shooting sports? I see sharing information is a concept foreign to you. I have not made up my mind, I am looking for information so as to compare this round with others I currently load.
Your byline says active citizen, you didn't say you were new. I share information all the time. Problem is we get a lot of trolls that simply like to stir the pot on dead issues. One of the biggest dead issues is when someone immediately starts calling some one else a gamer because they don't like .32s, .38s, short strokes, or other equipment they don't like. The .45 Cowboy Special is basically a .45 ACP with a .45 Long Colt rim. Works fine and holds plenty of powder to make the smoke standard and has more than enough power for any knockdown you will run into.
P.S. Whenever you post on the internet you can't have thin skin. The written word often doesn't convey the same meaning as the spoken word as there is no voice intonation or inflection, no eye contact etc.
I'm a warthog, and wouldn't mind trying the 45 special out. I've got a uberti remington with 5 1/2" barrel with a R&D conversion cylinder that would be just about perfect for this round. Full power 45 black powder rounds are uncomfortable to shot in it. My hands don't like the grip shape as well as the colt.
Of course, for the rifle I love the full power 45's, and even for my peacemakers. But from what I understand the 45 special is very close to the orginal 46 Remington round used in there conversions.
On the other hand I've got enough ammo to reload for so have never tried it. But it is an interesting concept, and I could see myself loading them with smokless do to the fact that most powders leave a lot of space in the 45LC.
Though I am obviously not impartial, lemme chime in here. Yes, the C45S was marketed by me as a softer shooting alternative. I was however shooting a .45 Colt load of 777FFG and a 250 grainer. From that standpoint, a load many complained was just too much, we went back to basics, emulating the "fierce" big bore cartridges of the 1860s, namely the .450 Webley and .455 Webley Mark I.
Using good powder and a bullet of 200 grains or more, the C45S is a worthy cartridge for ANY use short of big bears. 18 grains of Swiss 1/12 and a 200 will get yer attention, with plenty enough "poop". For the testosterone junkie, a 268 grain .455 Webley bullet as cast from the fine RCBS mold, on top of a stoutly compressed load of quality powder will surely satisfy. From wild to mild, this little guy can git-r-dun.
Happy Holidays from Cowboy45Special.com
Jack Gee I remember,back about four, five years ago,this feller that we both know. He was shooting a Marlin with a chamber that was just a little less than ideal and Sloppy,too say the least. IIRC he was shooting 19.5 grs of Swiss 1 1/2,with a 200 gr. J/P over top of it. He had to pound out the swelled case out of the chamber, that reveled the less than ideal chamber and taught us that yes the case seals up in the chamber and Swiss powder yes even 1 1/2 can and will develop some pressure. I for the life of me can't remember what the crono numbers were on that round but they were impressive. If one doesn't want it to be a powder puff it won't be but you better have a chamber that is somewhere near spec. Adios Sgt. Jake
Thanks for the info.
Not trying to stir up a hornets nest, just looking for info. I have been shooting longer than many but not as long as some. The 45 ACP is a favorite of mine and the idea of the 45 CS looked intriguing until I read the ad hype on the originators website. That's where I got the idea it was for gamers. Knowing the potetial of the ACP cartridge with smokelss, I was wondering what it was with black powder as the ACP is one of the few cartridges I have not yet loaded with black powder and lead.
I shoot a 44 Colt revolver and was hoping to compare the two, on paper prior to investing in new brass. If my shop was heated instead of being below freezing, I would fill an ACP case and weigh the result. Shaking fingers and a balance scale don't go together well. Interesting that it compares to the 46 Remington.
The info on shooting the Webley bullet is interesting also. I have a SAECO mold that cast a 238 grain full wadcutter. With smokeless, it sure packs a wallop from my 25-2. In the 45 CS it may be even more fun.
Thanks again. More info is better.
At the VT State shoot, I was running my "poof-tink" smokeless loads, 125s over 2.8 of BE, and on one stage they had a BIG buffalo target that probably weighs 50+ lbs. So I dragged out a 268 grainer on top of 5 grains of BE, which is roughly equal to the same bullet and Swiss, put it in the right rotation so it'd be shot at the big target, and hammered that ole buff just a bit off center. The target wobbled back and forth like it was gonna come off the stand, as I hollered, "take that you shaggy SOB". Much good fun.....
Quote from: Jefro on December 21, 2010, 07:10:39 PM
What's with all this gamer talk ???, nothing wrong with .38, 32/20 or C.45Sp. Everyone seems to think the Colt .45 was the big deal in the real west. Maybe for revlovers, but so was the historically accurate 32/20, it put alot more meat on the table than any .45. :o I've been shooting nothing but real BP with the 38sp Snakebites for years, loaded up with 3f it produces plenty of bang and smoke. When I do shoot .45 revolvers I use the C.45Sp, just as historically accurate as those .45 rifles. :D :D ;D I ain't hunting elk ::) does that make me a gamer ??? :P I think not ;D :P
Jefro :) Relax-Enjoy
What I meany Jefro, was that if you were a gamer, you would not even give a 45 cal a moments consideration.
I was down at the shopping mall today and went into the Game shop to buy a computer game for my son. They all had T shirts which said, "Talk to the gamers this Christmas!" I thought of a few shooting friends immediately. :D
Here's a twist. I love this cartridge as I can shoot my 45's with less powder than a full sized case and save money. No filler just pure bp a good big lube boolit and to town we go. YE HAA
;D
Yer dead nuts on Mason. This is a simple case to load for black powder shooting. That's one thing that's missed about the C45Spl. It will handle a compressed charge of bp under a good bullet, Big Lube of course, and need no filler. Also, for reasons I don't quite understand, there is LESS blowback with Cowboy 45 Special ammo than when the same gun is shot with 45 Colt ammo. Go figure.
DD-DLoS
Right now I only use it for my pistol's and I use the 150 Gr big Lube Boolit that I cast either with my lube or PS.
Some day I will buy the conversion for my rifle and shoot it in both. I am a true believer in this little cartridge.
I like the simple load up the case and seat the boolit and then head to the range.
Later Mason ;D
Quote from: Mason Stillwell on December 25, 2010, 10:56:14 AM
Right now I only use it for my pistol's and I use the 150 Gr big Lube Boolit that I cast either with my lube or PS.
Later Mason ;D
Yep, the C.45Sp is a dandy little cartridge for the revolvers. I also use the EPP 150gr, holds a little more powder than the 200gr, both shoot great. ;D
Jefro :)
As AJ stated and if you read the info on the web his intentions were to make a small 45 Colt round that fit into the gamer ranks better. Most rounds may be loaded up or down depending on your use of it. Jefro, You have shot this game long enough to know that they had no 45 Colt rifles because of the case design used at that time. Had the factories had access to cases with the dimensions of today's ammo you can bet the house they would have been made by all the big boys and we would have old 45 Colt rifles to buy. As far as game killed it is nothing but guess work by any one who refers to it. I would be willing to bet that the muzzle loading rifles and the Sharps rifles had a larger quota than any small cartridge rifle. Almost all stories of the westward movement had each family with a muzzle loading shotgun and rifle right after the WAR OF NORTHERN AGGRESSION. These people were not armed with the 73's but older guns.
Fairshake, it wasn't just until the end of the Civil War that folks used muzzle loaders. The very first sixgun I had was a very elderly Colt's Navy. The first rifle-gun I owned was a .22, the next one was a forty-some caliber muzzle loader. My Grandpa on my Mama's side lent me those. When I was about fourteen he took 'em back because I had graduated to them ca'tridge guns. The cap 'n ball guns went to a younger cousin and from there???
It was well after WW1 when a lot of country folks finally gave up on muzzle loaders. It's kind of a shame that more folks didn't learn on the front stuffers. With those you really had to learn to hunt.
As I recall, the .44 Henry rimfire wasn't exactly a powerhouse and seems to me the .45 CS would come close to replicating it. Good stuff. I used to shoot .44 Mag hot loads all day long...thirty years ago. Now, well, I realize that reducing the charge doesn't make it a wimp, it just makes it more accurate and manageable and you can shoot it all day long.
Actually, according to Walt Kirst, there was a 46 rimfire cartridge that the C45Spl nearly duplicates, but in central fire primer location. As I recall, Walt tried to get the C45Spl accepted in NCOWS shooting, but they rejected it.
DD-DLoS
Quote from: Dick Dastardly on January 02, 2011, 09:39:51 AM
Actually, according to Walt Kirst, there was a 46 rimfire cartridge that the C45Spl nearly duplicates, but in central fire primer location. As I recall, Walt tried to get the C45Spl accepted in NCOWS shooting, but they rejected it.
DD-DLoS
Maybe he should have just called it a ".46 Remington Centerfire" Who could have a problem with that?
Quote from: pony express on January 02, 2011, 10:50:13 AM
Maybe he should have just called it a ".46 Remington Centerfire" Who could have a problem with that?
Dang! Yer took the words right outa my mouth!
I have about 2000 45Colt cases to use up first!
4deadly digits said; "I have about 2000 45Colt cases to use up first!"
Use a small tubing cutter and a LEE case length cutter for the .45ACP to acquire make special cases.
Great way to save split neck cases, but anneal first
Quote from: Adirondack Jack on December 22, 2010, 10:48:21 AM
emulating the "fierce" big bore cartridges of the 1860s, namely the .450 Webley and .455 Webley Mark I.
For the testosterone junkie, a 268 grain .455 Webley bullet as cast from the fine RCBS mold, on top of a stoutly compressed load of quality powder will surely satisfy.
Right on!! The first time I saw a pard using the Cowboy45Special, I did a double take and asked "hey, is that a Webley round?" Ah, what a wonderful round it is.......
Now, if we can only find someone who makes a cylinder in .455 Webley.......nirvana!!!!
They do make cylinders for .450 Webley, they are called 45 Colt cylinders.
Quote from: Springfield Slim on January 02, 2011, 05:54:53 PM
They do make cylinders for .450 Webley, they are called 45 Colt cylinders.
You have to consider the variety of rim thicknesses. .455 Webley has a .035" rim. Colt/Schofield/Special have a .055" rim. The others I don't know as I never measured any.
Plus, don't forget, the 45 Colt has a rim diameter of .512" while the 455 Webley has a rim diameter of .535". That prevents one from using the 45 Colt cylinder, unless the ratchet is modified.
FWIW, AJ did convert 45 Colt brass to C45Spl, much in the way already mentioned. He soon tired of the exercise. That's when he contacted Star Line and went way out on a limb with his own money and ordered 50,000 pieces of his brass. He took the risk so that we could have this fine cartridge.
I predict that those attempting to convert 45 Colt brass to C45Spl brass will also tire of the exercise long before they re-manufacture enough to satisfy their SASS shooting needs. When that happens, simply go to Adirondack Jack's web site at www.cowboy45special.com/ and buy the brass you want. You won't be overcharged or disappointed by quality or service. He's one of us.
DD-DLoS
Quote from: Dick Dastardly on January 02, 2011, 09:39:51 AM
Actually, according to Walt Kirst, there was a 46 rimfire cartridge that the C45Spl nearly duplicates, but in central fire primer location. As I recall, Walt tried to get the C45Spl accepted in NCOWS shooting, but they rejected it.
DD-DLoS
It was rejected because it was a modern case produced as a nod to the modern shooting sport of CAS in order to reduce the load of the .45colt.
RCJ
Hello to the campfire,
There are some pretty good reasons for going to .45 Cowboy.
Practice with my ROA's is a lot easier with the conversion cylinder and .45 cowboys. As DD observed there seems to be less blowback with the .45 cowboy
There is one step eliminated in the loading process for SASS approved loads.....No filler.
Twice as many .45 cowboy brass can be cleaned at one time.
Loaded with DD bullits, the round in deadly accurate, may have something to do with reduced recoil and less flinch.
Feeding in 73's with the conversion is absolutely flawless.
Thanks AJ for this unique round, obviously I'm a big fan.
Cohagen
I couldn't wait, and I already was set up to convert .45Colt to .455 Webley. 4deadlydigits also has a supply problem in OZ
In Canada Double Tap Sports in T.O. imports Starline cases and sometimes has stock. It seems they do;
http://www.doubletapsports.com/node/22
Marstar might have them? Apparently not at this time;
http://www.marstar.ca/ammo-etc/new-brass.shtm
P.S; Modified with links, Jan 3, 2011
I always thought it was a darned shame that this round was viewed by NCOWS as a "gamer round". In truth it can be a fair approximation of the old webley round or even loaded to the ballstics of the Henry Flat.
But then NCOWS has tried to stay within the precepts of historical accuraccy in it's permitted cartridges, excepting for those like the .44 mag and .357/38 special that were about the only thing available for a while to most folks. I admire that , but I think they missed the boat by disallowing this round.
Quote from: Cuts Crooked on January 03, 2011, 05:20:27 PM
I always thought it was a darned shame that this round was viewed by NCOWS as a "gamer round". In truth it can be a fair approximation of the old webley round or even loaded to the ballstics of the Henry Flat.
But then NCOWS has tried to stay within the precepts of historical accuraccy in it's permitted cartridges, excepting for those like the .44 mag and .357/38 special that were about the only thing available for a while to most folks. I admire that , but I think they missed the boat by disallowing this round.
I agree, ain't much different than the Schofield.
Jefro :(
...and for those that need a bit lighter load, there is a 125 grain bullet available.
Regards,
Slim
That's why I said 450 Colt/Revolver/Adams, it has the same rim diameter as the 45 Colt. And it is a bit shorter than the 45CS. Still available from Fiocchi. I empty the cases by shooting them in my 45Colt SAA and then load them for use with BP in my Webley Mk 4.
While it is true the C45S is close to the .46 Remington, it is also a very near dead ringer for a very obscure case called the .45 (not .450 or .455) Webley, which was made for use in Webley-Green and SAA revolvers for British foreign service troops (India). I have an original factory .45 Webley here. it is a .452 bullet of about 230 grains, exactly the same rim as .45 Colt, and is a hair shorter than the C45S (might be .050 IIRC).
The Early .455 Webley mark I, aka Colt-Eley is also close, but the .455 uses the thinner Adams-based rim, meaning many modern .45 Colt revolvers will not have enough firing pin reach to fire them (I have shot em outta Rugers, using sewing thread wound around the cases to space the rims).
A really fun combination for the historical purist using a modern .45 Colt revolver to play "old Brit cartridge games" is a C45S case loaded with a .455 Webley mark I bullet (RCBS makes the mold, a long-ogive 268 grain HB bullet) sized to .452. These are far from "gamer" loads, and will thump the heck outta steel, or most anything else, and are in fact stouter than standard .45 Colt Cowboy loads, and in terms of momentum, probably out-smack .45 Service loads. I've run em out of Rugers at 800FPS or so, and they will rattle a 32" round plate right off the mount or knock the whole kaboodle over. (I just shoot one or two for grins, mixed in with my 525 fps 125s :) )
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v54/adirondack_jack/001-12.jpg)
L-R: 125 HB bullet inverted, 250 RNFP, 160 RNFP, and 268 HB (webley Mark I bullet)
Note, the very long nose 268 grain bullet cannot be run out of .45 Colt or even .45 Schofield, as it is too long for the cylinder when so loaded. The short case makes it possible.
Quote from: Dick Dastardly on January 03, 2011, 09:14:36 AM
FWIW, AJ did convert 45 Colt brass to C45Spl, much in the way already mentioned. He soon tired of the exercise. That's when he contacted Star Line and went way out on a limb with his own money and ordered 50,000 pieces of his brass. He took the risk so that we could have this fine cartridge.
I predict that those attempting to convert 45 Colt brass to C45Spl brass will also tire of the exercise long before they re-manufacture enough to satisfy their SASS shooting needs. When that happens, simply go to Adirondack Jack's web site at www.cowboy45special.com/ and buy the brass you want. You won't be overcharged or disappointed by quality or service. He's one of us.
DD-DLoS
Thanks DD
FWIW I was just thinking last night of how scary it was ordering that first 50,000 pieces, using money borrowed from momma's car fund (she waited a year to get a replacement for her aging Taurus). That fear soon passed, and today we've sold about 10 times that many, and get orders from new customers and repeat orders all the time...... We still aren't getting rich on em, but enjoy watching the cartridge take hold, and are pleased by the fun folks have with em.
For those wanting to make C45S out of .45 Colt, I will tell you exactly how to do it and what to look out for. Get ya a good, powered case trimmer such as the Lyman Universal (I used the one ya power with a drill motor) and a suitable case reamer. You will need to trim the cases back to .898 or so, then deburr the outsides, then ream the insides. This is important, as straight-walled pistol cases are tapered on the inside, and yer cutting em down far enough that they end up way too thick to load properly. Failure to ream the cases leads to a case that will size too small on the inside, then the expander will push HARD to get it big enough on the inside for a bullet, rendering it fat on the outside, which means the seat/crimp die will work it real hard, crushing the bullet in the process. Expect the press to jolt and jar, making powder fling all over, etc.
So ya gotta cut em, debur, then ream em to size SYMETRICALLY (so ya don't have brass with a weak side that will split right away). If properly reamed, you will still have a fairly abrupt shoulder below the bullet, which will be a weak point, leading to early case failure, but they will work for a while. I did about 2000 of em over a LOT of long evenings, and shot em for 1 1/2 seasons before pulling the trigger on properly made, correctly drawn brass specifically designed to be what it is, a .45 Colt with the unwanted MIDDLE omitted, and the internal taper reconfigured for our needs. That meant custom designed drawing punches to make the strongest possible case that would still accommodate a 250 rnfp bullet without bulging, and a special taper at the web to make the best use of the space-reducing properties. It is near identical in internal volume to ACP, but strength-wise is more like .460 Rowland brass. The owner of Starline worked with me on the design of the punches.
But you sure can make yer own, kinda sorta, if ya wanna.
Thanks fer that AJ! I kinda sorta don't wanna, if you get my drift. I would be probably better off selling my 45brass and buying a new lot. Does anyone sell it in Australia? Importing is a pita for a non dealer (it is pretty much a pita for a dealer as well I suppose). I can get on the phone and order a truckload of brass from anyone in Australia (and pay throught the nose :( ), but to import any amount from the states or anywhere else is a huge undertaking.
Quote from: fourfingersofdeath on January 06, 2011, 06:03:52 AM
Thanks fer that AJ! I kinda sorta don't wanna, if you get my drift. I would be probably better off selling my 45brass and buying a new lot. Does anyone sell it in Australia? Importing is a pita for a non dealer (it is pretty much a pita for a dealer as well I suppose). I can get on the phone and order a truckload of brass from anyone in Australia (and pay throught the nose :( ), but to import any amount from the states or anywhere else is a huge undertaking.
There is no official source for C45S downunder, as the US State Department is real nasty about export of brass or even gun parts valued above $100, requiring all manner of expensive licenses, etc. However, when I get calls from folks outside the US, I have learned that they are very resourcefull in buying gun stuff. I always ask "Do you have a seller in the US for guns and parts valued above $100 now?" They often say they have somebody they deal with who exports those things to their country. I reply "Well, if he's in the US I can always ship to him, if you and he make an arrangement to get the stuff shipped to you (maybe with yer next order from him, etc), yer in business. C45S brass has made its way around the world, to bunches of countries in that manner, and continues to do so, as I still can't justify the hassle and expense of an export license.
FFOD; I googled & found these dealers in Australia listed by STARLINE themselves. I checked "western firearms" & NIOA, but they didn't stock .45CS, at least at present.
Action Shooters Imports
68 Watkins Rd, Wangi Wangi
NSW Australia 2267
(26) 559-3322
asimportsptyltd@bigpond.com
Granite Arms P/L
75 High Street, Kangaroo Fla
3555 Bendigo, Victoria
Australia
(035) 447-7142
office@asiabrokers.com.au
Nioa Trading
P.O. Box 181
Banyo QLD 4014
Australia
61 736219999
g.jones@nioa.net.au
Tari Property Investments
PO Box 431
Millmerran, QLD 4357
Australia
617846952050
dfa75035@bigpond.net.au
Sir Charles, that is because although Starline makes the brass, they do so as a custom case for Adirondack Jack's Trading Post, and do not sell or stock the case themselves. Starline makes many rounds that do not bear a *---* headstamp, and are not DIRECTLY available through their dealers.
HOWEVER, anyone outside the US with an ongoing import/export relationship with one of those folks might be on the right track to acquire non-stock items (see my last post)
Its in stock in Canada, here;
http://www.doubletapsports.com/catalog/30/cowboy_45_special
Sir Charles,
It's not on their (DoubleTap's) Starline brass page. Since the artwork shown is from cowboy.45special.com (http://cowboy.45special.com), I would assume that they are buying it from Adirondack Jack. I used to sell parts directly to larger shops in other countries if there weren't distributors for the area to keep the retail cost where it was supposed to be, I'm sure Jack is doing the same.
But, I'm sure Jack will tell us the same...or there will definitely be a flurry of phone calls to Missouri. ;)
Regards,
Mako
This is all begining to sound more trouble than its worth, which is a shame, it is great looking little cartridge.
If I did not say it previously, thank you all for the responses. I have learned a good deal about the 45CS and appreciate the history of the cartridge and how it ties into the history of the earlier cartridges. It never hurts to have a better understanding of hte whys and hows of a product.
@Adirondack Jack - Just got my first bag of these little beauties today and I've already got 'em loaded up and ready to test tomorrow in my '63 Remington NMA conversions. I can't wait!
When I first saw these, I have to admit that I didn't give them much thought. But then I read that they were similar to the .44 Rimfire and that caught my attention.
It always bugged me when people complained about leverguns chambered in .45 Colt, but then have no problem with seeing a '66 in .44-40, when the exact same argument applies. The gun was never chambered in that caliber!!! (My specific area of interest is the immediate post Civil War era, 1866-1872.)
Now admittedly, the .45 Cowboy never existed back then, but at least it tries to emulate the ballistics of these earlier (and smaller) cartridges mentioned in this thread. And given the complete lack of any alternatives, I'm glad AJ took the risk he did to bring them to us.
When I realized that, I couldn't wait to get them since I love the 1866, but haven't bought one because of the mentioned lack of a "historical" '66. This round will fill that niche quite nicely. (AJ - you can expect at least one carrier order this summer, once I've saved all my dimes and nickels!) :)
Quote from: River City John on January 03, 2011, 09:56:28 AM
It was rejected because it was a modern case produced as a nod to the modern shooting sport of CAS in order to reduce the load of the .45colt.
RCJ
That might have been the reasoning, but as is obvious from this thread that is not the case. There are plenty of old & obscure rimfire and centerfire cases from that era that simply will never be reproduced due to a lack of commercial interest.
What Adirondack Jack did was IMO a stroke of genius. He tried to emulate the ballistic performance of many of these early cartridges (I believe there's been 4 mentioned in this thread alone) but he did so by copying existing (and popular) cartridges.
So, I now have a round that I can load using my existing .45 ACP dies, and load into my .45 Colt guns that matches the ballistics of the rounds those guns originally fired! How does that hurt our sport?
Now, if the reasoning truly was that "it was a modern case produced as a nod to the modern shooting sport of CAS" then why is .45 Colt allowed in NCOWS? The modern .45 Colt does not match the original. It is also a modern case and it was changed as a nod to modern shooters?
Or for that matter, why is ANY modern reproduction firearm allowed? No modern replica firearm I'm aware of is a carbon copy of the original. All have made at least changes to materials, if not dimensions, or even small design improvements. Therefore none of them are "historically accurate".
The obvious answer to my above queries is that these modern changes improve the original designs (especially in the area of safety & reliability) without compromising the spirit of historical accuracy. And (more importantly) if these modern reproductions
werent allowed then NCOWS wouldn't exist because your potential audience is reduced by several orders of magnitude.
By allowing these compromises that are "in the spirit of the game" more people are inclined to participate and you end up helping to preserve history by a greater degree than if you had remained "historically pure".[rhetorical hyperbole] As I said in my above post, if "historical accuracy" is the keystone, then NCOWS should ban each and every caliber / gun mismatch out there, starting with EVERY SINGLE Uberti '66 & modern conversion revolver.
[/rhetorical hyperbole]In the interest of full disclosure, I'd like to point out that I'm not a member of NCOWS (no posse in my state), so I don't really have a dog in this fight. But I am an [amateur] historian, and I believe the best way to preserve our history is to allow people to live it in some small way. The more people that can participate the better we off we all are.
Cookie,
As noted earlier, NCOWS tries hard to preserve "historical accuracy" as part of their heritage. The allowence of a few modern cartridges was/is a nod to the reality of what was availible to shooter when they started out to create their organization. There simply were no other options back then. I have noted, both in SASS and NCOWS a reluctance to ban an item that has previously been officially permitted, and this is probably because it would be unfair to disallow them and burdan those who already purchased items for the game before they were "disallowed".
At one time there was a large controversy over short stroked rifles in NCOWS. The short stroke kits were never officially allowed but many shooters installed them and used them. NCOWS addressed the issue finally and banned them, which caused some acrimony among shooters who had installed them. However....THEY WERE NEVER OFFICIALLY ALLOWED in the first place, unlike some of the cartridge/gun combinations that were permitted when the game first got started.
As I said, I admire NCOWS stance in sticking as much as possible to historically accurate weapons/accouterments and I really enjoy shooting NCOWS when I can. But one must approch NCOWS with an understanding that they are NOT SASS and never will be. They are a unique shooting/reenacting disciplene with their own set of rules. A wonderful outfit to shoot with too! I suggest you stop in at the NCOWS forum here at CAS city and have a look around.
(just because I think they missed the boat on C45S doesn't mean that they are wrong ;) )
Quote from: Mako on January 06, 2011, 04:29:26 PM
Sir Charles,
It's not on their (DoubleTap's) Starline brass page. Since the artwork shown is from cowboy.45special.com (http://cowboy.45special.com), I would assume that they are buying it from Adirondack Jack. I used to sell parts directly to larger shops in other countries if there weren't distributors for the area to keep the retail cost where it was supposed to be, I'm sure Jack is doing the same.
But, I'm sure Jack will tell us the same...or there will definitely be a flurry of phone calls to Missouri. ;)
Regards,
Mako
Doubletap Sports in Canada did buy a bunch from me, after arranging their export from the US via a cooperative license holder. I dpon't know if he still has any in stock at this time, but for any canadian pards, he's one to call. Please don't call Starline. They will be happy to give you my phone number, but that's as far is they are involved in the distribution. They make em, I stock em and sell em.