Refer to Mako for information
Hoof,
Very informative, thank you.
I have two questions:
The first is why do you need the extension on the crimping die? You are just crimping the case mouth aren't you? I had to seat my Lee Factory Crimp die deeper for my .44 Russian cartridges but that was just adjusting the body down on my Dillon press.
The second is about the volume of lube in your grooves. The grooves look very shallow, is there enough for an 8" barrel to make it through an match? (I guess I lied about two questions)And what kind of lube are you using? It is suspiciously "pink"...
Thanks,
Mako
Seth,
Thanks, so it is not a standard Lee Factory Crimp die then. Interesting, so I'm guessing the crimp is not at the mouth, but on the heeled diameter?
I just assumed it was a shortened die. Does it still have the carbide sizer in it, or has that been removed? I use Lee Factory Crimp Dies for all of my revolver cartridges and I like the fact it resizes the loaded cartridge body as it crimps.
~Mako
I bought Bernie's modified Lee FCD a few years back , along with his 248gr heel base mould. It was ole Charlie Harper that got me interested in shooting heel base loads in my Remington NMA with R&D conversion. I've had fun shooting this load, and have only loaded 44Colt cases.
The details of what HH has posted and the follow-ups by Seth really help flesh out the detaiils. I'm not familiar with a regular Lee FCD so when examining Bernie's modified one,...I can't tell what's been modified. I use a Dillon Square Deal press for all the operations except crimping,.....then I use this Lee press to put the crimp on the mouth of the .44Colt case..
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa276/foxlbee/Image47.jpg)
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......Here's a few close-up photos of Bernie's modified Lee FCD.....
the two piece die...
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa276/foxlbee/Image08.jpg)
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...the collet looking down into the top area, the ridge that does the actual crimping.
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa276/foxlbee/Image17.jpg)
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Based on what you folks have been saying here, and looking at my set-up,..I think I may have to get the adjustable shell holder from Bernie if I want to load the heeled bullet in the shorter .44Russian case.
Thanks for all the good info. ;D
Quote from: Seth Hawkins on January 19, 2009, 11:00:34 AM
Mako - the crimp die does crimp the case mouth.
This is why a conventional roll/taper crimp die won't work with heel based bullets, and probably why a standard FCD won't work, either. In Bernie's die, the collet doesn't begin to squeeze the brass until the bullet has gone past the collet.
Seth,
I was trying to understand how this die differs from a standard Lee Factory Crimp Die other than removal of the sizing ring. But I think I stumbled on the real answer, I don't think Bernie is using a
pistol die, now that I go back and look at Hoof's pictures I think it is a Lee rifle die which has a 4 piece collet. It crimps the neck and not the mouth (you fooled me for a second when you said it crimped the mouth, I was thinking "roll crimp"). I'm also looking at Hoof's last picture and it looks like a rifle neck crimp instead of the pistol roll crimp. In his earlier thread about
44 Heel Base Bullet Comparison you can't see the crimps as well and I didn't make the connection.
It also makes sense because on the rifle die the crimper does not move up and down so you would have to adjust how deep the cartridge enters the die to set were the crimp is. The rifle dies are caliber specific.
Thie biggest thing of course is that you don't upset the outside diameter of the bullet, any other kind of pistol die whether roll or taper crimp will affect the diameter. The true collet stays outboard until the collet is closed by the shell holder.
~Mako
Oldelm,
Thanks for posting the picture. Yep that's a "rifle" die.
~Mako
You posted while I was typing...
Quote from: Oldelm on January 19, 2009, 12:04:44 PM
I'm not familiar with a regular Lee FCD so when examining Bernie's modified one,...I can't tell what's been modified.
Oldelm,
I can explain the difference between the die you have and the Lee Pistol Die, but how Hoof's and Seth's dies differ from the standard Lee rifle dies I can't tell. Yours looks pretty standard.
As I type this I am holding a .44Spl/.44Mag/.44 Super Mag crimp die in my left hand. The die has seven (7) components; a body with a carbide sizer ring press fit into the mouth, a lock ring with an o-ring for friction, what Lee calls the Crimp Adjuster threaded in from the top and an o-ring on it to provide a friction position holder and a Floating Crimper Ring which is free to move up and down between the sizing ring and the crimp adjuster.
The Lee pistol die allows the bullet to pass through without any affect on the length or crimp. The die is adjusted down until it just touches the shell holder or shell plate in the case of a Dillon and then I back it off 1/8th turn (Lee says let it touch). This sets the sizing length, at this setting the entire case length up to the web will get a final resizing. You insert a case with the bullet set to the final length, but un-crimped. You then adjust the Crimp die down until you get the desired crimp. The Adjuster just sets how high the crimp ring is relative to the case mouth. I have heard it erroneously described as a "collet," but on the pistol die it's really not a collet. Simply imagine a roll crimp die where the crimp area floats.
The rifle die requires the shell holder to bump the bottom of the collet to close it. Yours is just set for the one length, what Seth has described and the picture Hoof has posted shows a reduced diameter shell holder which must allow the cartridge to go deeper into the die body with the shorter .44 Russians. What I can't tell is what hits the collet and causes it to close. Can either Hoof or Seth shed light on this? I don't think Oldelm has that on his.
~Mako
By the way, thanks to Hoof, Seth and Oldelm, this is an incredibly informative post. I've never seen this info posted anywhere. Bernie doesn't tell you much on his site and he needs to better explain it.
Bernie could almost use some of the info here. Bernie has made do with his reputation and word of mouth which is a testimony to his workmanship and products. I keep flirting with true conversions on pairs of '60s but have always backed away because of the heeled bullets. I have a new pair of Uberti transition models but as I work with them I am increasingly disappointed they are not the correct size. Not only do they not fit my holsters well but they just look a bit off. Bernie's set up looks workable. Hmmmm... now to figure out how to make it work on a progressive press without that shell holder. (betcha' I can for a one shell length set up like Oldelm has)
~Mako
HH
Thank you for the interesting post and pics. ;D
Oldelm,
Thank you for the additional info and pics. ;D
Mako,
Based on Oldelm's pics, Bernie is modifying the .44-40 FCD
I have one of these for loading .44-40's and it works great! ;D
w44wcf
Howdy Mako,
Thanks for all your info, questions, head scratching, and problem solving skills,...it's helping me to better understand this "mystery" of crimping the heel base bullet. All I know is that Bernie's set-up works great , and the info from everyone on this thread is helping me get my mind around it.
QuoteThe rifle die requires the shell holder to bump the bottom of the collet to close it. Yours is just set for the one length, what Seth has described and the picture Hoof has posted shows a reduced diameter shell holder which must allow the cartridge to go deeper into the die body with the shorter .44 Russians. What I can't tell is what hits the collet and causes it to close. Can either Hoof or Seth shed light on this? I don't think Oldelm has that on his.
Yes, when the shellholder on mine bumps up onto the bottom of the "collet", it pushes it up causing the top tapered nose of the collet to contact the corresponding / mating tapered ledge within the threaded sleeve, thereby pushing the 4 "fingers" of the collet together, contacting the case , creating a nice crimp at the end of the case and into the crimp groove of the heeled bullet.
...here's a close-up shot (from the bottom) looking up inside of the threaded sleeve where you can see the tapered (sloping) ledge with a dark band on it.(hard rubber?) This is what the collet bumps up onto causing the fingers to crimp in on the case. Hope this helps show the process. :)
(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa276/foxlbee/Image58.jpg)
Quote from: w44wcf on January 19, 2009, 01:15:43 PM
Based on Oldelm's pics, Bernie is modifying the .44-40 FCD
I have one of these for loading .44-40's and it works great! ;D
w44wcf
BINGO!
w44wcf, I think you hit it on the head, I should have realized it from the start. All he has to do is shorten it by.195" for a .44 Colt. Any idea what he might do for the .44 Russian Case? Now I am assuming that Hoof is crimping his .44 Russian cases with this set up, did he ever actually say that you could? If you can't I am back to wondering why you need an adjustable shell holder.
How do you like the results with your .44wcf cartridges and that die? I have one I bought way over a year ago, but have been shooting so much .44 Spl and Russian I haven't done much with it yet, I still have lots of loaded .44-40 ammo.
I'm gonna start another thread so we don't completely hijack this one about crimping the Winchester Centerfire Cases. Be looking for it.
Regards,
Mako
Quote from: Seth Hawkins on January 19, 2009, 01:48:51 PM
Mako - My crimp die is identical to what Oldelm shows. As I don't have one of the adjustable shell holders, I'll let HH describe it's operation.
Sorry for the confusion on the "case mouth / case neck" terminology. I should have said case neck.
Seth,
No worries man! This is all good info. You can see why I was a bit confused and you'll know even further more why I was when you see my thread about .44-40 crimping. I was thinking pistol dies and forgetting that the .44WCF dies Lee makes are technically rifle dies. I couldn't figure out how to get a roll crimp with the set up.
I am still wondering what the adjustable shell holder set up Hoof has actually accomplishes.
~Mako
Hoof,
Thanks!
Lube - I figured you added something to color it.
Enough Lube- I want more, I'm gonna ask if he will make a custom cherry for me and give me a bigger groove.
Crimp Die- I only look stupid... I was never intending to make one, I just wanted to understand how it worked, the shell holder extension threw me. It still does, tell me what it's for.
Sizing- I am getting away from resizing BP cases when I can. I tend to size pistol cases more than rifle cases to make sure they don't stick back and bind the cylinder. I don't shoot SAAs much but if I did the .44-40s or a new pair of them would be used.
Oh, and it doesn't surprise me that he might thin the collet fingers. I just pulled my Lee .44-40 die out and looked at it. It is set to crimp that thinner case wall and with .427" bullets if necessary, the .44 Colt is a larger diameter at the neck. My .44 Colts after being "re-sized" after crimping on a Lee die are about Ø.451" right at the crimp and my .44-40s are Ø.439, I have some factory Winchester ammo that is Ø.437.
So tell us about this adjustable shell holder no one else has...Why are you so special? ;) You know you have Seth and Oldelm jealous now.
~Mako
Quote from: Seth Hawkins on January 19, 2009, 06:01:19 PM
My Dillon's shell plate has some vertical "give" to it (sort of spring loaded) to allow the plate to turn freely and index correctly. This "give" in the plate might make using/adjusting Bernie's collet crimp die difficult at best since this die is activated by the shell holder pushing up on the collet. At worst, you might have to move your ammo to a single stage press for the crimp. I don't see why you couldn't use a progressive press for everything else when loading the heel based bullet.
Seth,
I'm lazy... I want to do it all on the Dillon.
Since it is in the upward stroke it works, my .44-40 die works.
You know that Shoulder screw in the middle of your shell plate? The amount you have it turned in is probably what is setting your plate clearance. It shouldn't work that way, a shoulder screw should be bottomed out. They are counting on the "ejector wire" that surrounds it to keep it from backing out any more.
Mine was too short and if you bottomed it out it bound the plate up. I called the factory about it and they told me you weren't supposed to tighten it all of the way. I told them they were nuts. They told me I could return it to have it checked out. This prompted an email to Mike, he just called me directly. He said he sighed when he saw who it was from. I beat him up a bit, he said everyone was leaving them loose anyway. I chewed on his ear for misusing a shoulder screw and told me to send the plate back. I asked "which one?" He laughed and said all of them, I got them back 3 days later they had spot faced everyone where the shoulder screw head retains the plate. I can now screw it in and the clearance is set.
The only problem is I will have to get any new shell plates modified to keep it all the same. I could have gotten some shoulder screw shims and accomplished the same thing. If you want to do it you can get them from McMaster-Carr Part number 91140A237 Plain Steel Shoulder Screw Shim - Lengthening .005" Thk, 3/8" Thread, 1/2" Shoulder,.352" ID,.496" OD http://www.mcmaster.com/itm/find.ASP?tab=find&context=psrchDtlLink&fasttrack=False&searchstring=91140A237 . Get the .005" thick ones they fit tight and won't slip over the threads, "thread" them on. They don't go under the head, that would make it tighter they go on the shoulder where the thread is to space it taller.
Look at your shell plate, see that area where the relief is around the opening for the shell? That is where the bottom of the collet will push and since the plate is spring loaded (actually it is the detent ball bearing between stations 4 and 5 that is spring loaded) it will push back against the face of the platform body. It will sit square on this face and not bend anything.
Later,
Mako
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 19, 2009, 06:31:27 PM
Enough lube
The amount of bearing surface is not really conducive to making bigger lube grooves. I would try what Fox Creek spoke of in the other thread (I have done this and it gets messy in the summer), dip the loaded round in melted bees wax. Or do the bore butter over the chambered round trick. You know this big lube thing has kinda gotten outta hand (don't tell Dick). Or you could use Trail Boss (I like being a rebel).
HH
Hoof,
I sure hope Dick skips over this one. You may have your Big Lube BOOOOLIT membership card revoked.
I almost gagged when I read
TRAIL BOSS!!!!!!!!!!!!, now you're jeopardizing your "man card!!" What's up with you? My 15 year old daughter shoots Trail Boss, she also wears skirts... :o
~Mako
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on January 19, 2009, 09:09:21 PM
Mako
Why don't you let yer daughter shoot BP, stingy???
HH
Her choice, not mine, she says it makes her hair smell... :-X
I told her she needs to start using it to get used to it. She also has the makings of a gunfighter, she never has shot "traditional" two handed style, she shoots both hands (she's left handed but totally ambidextrous) double duelist style now. If I could get her to more matches and have a good place to practice she has the makings of a national champion (seriously).
I hope you know I'm yanking yer chain about the smokeless, besides you couldn't impress me now girly man...
I don't think I like you though...bragn' about yer berms and all... ;)
I do want to thank you again for the pictures this morning it was very enlightening.
Regards,
Mako
Awesome I may just have to try this with my 11mm french bullets!!
I have to wonder that if the french built things all along as well as these pistols they might have been fine.
The round is pretty anemic by todays and yesterdays standards but the 1873 pistols are extremely well made and built like a tank.
I have shot half a match with them after getting ok from local match director. Once I work out some better leather I will do it again.
I will contact Bernie - I know he makes the french bullet and the molds - be great if he still makes or will make the crimping tool. I have tried several batches with my made for me dies, brass and bullets and that crimping tool appears to be the needed piece I do not have.
PR
Hoof Hearted:
Just purchased an old Legal Defender Conversion from Cap'n Jack off the Classifieds. It is chambered in 38 S&W. I have an Uberti 1851 that is laying around that I'm going to put this conversion on. Do you think that the heeled bullet will work with the 38 S&W? Is it close enough to get by with the 38 Short Colt loaded with a heeled bullet? Or, since i have a spare barrel around here as well, would I be better off to just reline one of the the barrels in 357 diameter?
Preacher Clint
PC, I have a set of 51 C&B converted to 38 cartridge and another being done.
Both sets got the barrel liner treatment to shoot 38spl. Just makes things easier.
Had I been a reloader with decent experience back when i got my first set converted I might have stayed with unlined barrels and got the heeled 38's for short or long colt but with one set converted and an 1873 that shoots same 38spl loads as I load for pistols I did not want to jerry with two different die set-ups.
Getting a barrel lined is actually one of the cheapest steps in a conversion. And with my smith we did it and kept original sights.
PR
How about using a hollow base bullet in the 38 S&W?
I use heeled bullets in my 1892 Marlin lever-action, made about 1908, in .32 Long Colt caliber.
I use the Lyman heeled bullet mould and the NEI long-heeled bullet for the .32 Long Colt, which I designed years ago.
Accuracy with the NEI hasn't been nearly as good as the classic Lyman, but the NEI's long heel negates the need to trim the cases back.
Factory loads for the .32 Long Colt were discontinued in the late 70s, possibly early 80s. Hard to find a box anymore. Since the early 20th century, the factory load for the .32 Long Colt employed a .299-inch soft lead bullet with a deep hollow base. It was hoped that the hollow base would swell up enough to fill the typical .309 to .311 inch bore of typical .32 Long Colt rifles and revolvers.
Fat chance!
However, the .32 Short Colt -- with heeled bullet -- is still made in limited runs by Winchester. It's usually around $30 a box, perhaps more. The .32 Short Colt may be safely used in any .32 Long Colt chamber; it's just a shorter version of the Long cartridge, rather like the .38 Long Colt being shorter than the .38 Special.
Anyway, if you find a box of .32 Short Colt cartridges, it will pay to relubricate them. The Winchester factory lube on the heeled bullet gets scraped off by the foam holder in the box. Get a bottle of Lee Liquid Alox, fill a twist-top cap 3/4 of the way, and dip the cartridge's bullet upside down into the lubricant, to where the lead meets the brass. Stand upright on a sheet of wax paper over night.
Store in a plastic ammo box, to avoid scraping the lubricant off with that foam block again.
The .32 Short ammo with heeled bullet can be very accurate in a good gun. My Marlin will put five into a quarter at 25 yards. That's with factory Buckhorn sights and my 55-year-old eyes, from a benchrest.
The .32 Long Colt ammo with its deep hollow base and .299 inch bullet will put five into 5 or 6 inches, sometimes 4. It's barely useable for small game hunting, owing to its inaccuracy.
Quote from: Preacher Clint on February 07, 2010, 10:29:01 AM
Hoof Hearted:
Just purchased an old Legal Defender Conversion from Cap'n Jack off the Classifieds. It is chambered in 38 S&W. I have an Uberti 1851 that is laying around that I'm going to put this conversion on. Do you think that the heeled bullet will work with the 38 S&W? Is it close enough to get by with the 38 Short Colt loaded with a heeled bullet? Or, since i have a spare barrel around here as well, would I be better off to just reline one of the the barrels in 357 diameter?
Preacher Clint
Your short colt cases will swell quite a bit if fired in a 38S&W chamber. And I suspect you MIGHT have to use .38 spec dies to load a heel base bullet in the S&W case. I tried sizing a bunch of special brass with my S&W sizing die once, and it didn't size them down enough.....many of the bullets would seat all the way with just finger pressure. (Yes, I used the regular 38 spec expander die)
Thanks, Who Far ... er, Hoofie!
This whole post has been an education. What really gets me is that I have managed to over-look it all this time!
I have no dog in this fight (not a fight at all, but you know whut I mean.) I have very little personal involvement with heel-based rounds (NOT heal!) beyond 22 rimfires, but this is VERY educational and informative. A friend of mine, "Ottawa Creek Bill" Proctor, is a true Living Historian, and a couple years ago made a conversion and also created some type of heel-base round crimping apparatus, but if I remember, it was along the lines of a stab crimp, not the way you have described.
To all y'all: Oldelm, Hoof Hearted, Pony Express, Mako, 44WCF, Mr. Brown/Clint, Gatofeo and others I might have missed - thanks for the info!
I found the challenge of reloading the 11mm french round (heel based/outside lubed) so challenging that I took a look at my various other guns that shoot a a load with 1.0 cc of BP and have decided to convert my 11mm St Etienne revolvers into 44 Russian shooters.
I know that hurts the collector value but I bought them to shoot them and they are at best shooter grade guns. I plan to shoot up my remaining 11mm French ammo and then have my local gunsmith do the conversion.
Theses guns were built to fire a 1.0cc loaded 11mm round and the French Marines also shot a 12mm round out of same gun (slightly converted) with what appears to be about a 1.5cc of BP. So I know the gun will do fine with my hand loaded 44 russian rounds.
My 44 russian brass with 1.0cc of 2F with BigLube bullet will shoot like a "cats meow" out of these hand guns.
My gunsmith will have to do minor work to the cylinders, sleeve the barrels for .429, and then some minor retiming.
Wahoooooooo - guns will go into the work que sometime after the new year!
PR
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on December 21, 2011, 12:34:56 PM
I have to say that I had been fluttering around with this for 5 to 10 years myself and tried making many different forms of "crimpers" (I must have reground 6 different cable crimpers). Then Lee supposedly would "alter" one in the shop (mine sat there 4 months then they told me NO). Without a doubt this is the Cats Meow, so to speak!
I also renewed my vigor when reading (and talking with) OCB and Half Creek Charlie (he's on the lamd somwhere) and seeing what they were doing caused me to convert many firearms!
How is OCB (I can jack my own thread here for a bit)?
Hoof-Hearted - Greetings again, pard!
Of course you can! It's your post; you can do what you want with it!
I haven't spoken to Bill in a month or two, and haven't seen him since Sept. when Major Roger Two was in town. At that time, Bill was VERY hard at work putting the finishing touches to
the Movie, and trying to get it all done for the Sundance Film Festival entry deadline for 2012.
I admired his conversion greatly and was sad when I found he had sold it. I won't mention the price, but whoever bought it,
stole it for a bargain basement price! I don't know if he included his crimp tool with it; I haven't heard any more about that. Dave "Jed Cooper" H. is considering having Bill convert a pair of Colts (repros) for him. I think a pair of 1851s. I don't know which model of conversion it would be or even if both would be done as the same type. But from what I saw, they will be excellently done!
Since this thread has come back to life, here's what I've been up to-
Got a mould and crimping die from Old West Moulds everything is excellent quality! Mould casts good right away, crimper works pretty well, but the bullet bases still aren't tight enough in the case necks, I can seat most of them by just pushing the bullet nose against the edge of the loading bench. The crimp will prevent them from pulling OUT, but most can be turned in the case necks by hand. I'm using a 9MM expander button already, may have to polish it down a bit. But now I've discovered that my 1892 colt is somewhat out of time, so all the loading work will have to wait until I get the gun working right.
Quote from: pony express on December 21, 2011, 10:38:47 PM
Since this thread has come back to life, here's what I've been up to-
Got a mould and crimping die from Old West Moulds everything is excellent quality! Mould casts good right away, crimper works pretty well, but the bullet bases still aren't tight enough in the case necks, I can seat most of them by just pushing the bullet nose against the edge of the loading bench. The crimp will prevent them from pulling OUT, but most can be turned in the case necks by hand. I'm using a 9MM expander button already, may have to polish it down a bit. But now I've discovered that my 1892 colt is somewhat out of time, so all the loading work will have to wait until I get the gun working right.
Good luck to ya, Pony Runner!
Quote from: Steel Horse Bailey on December 21, 2011, 08:25:29 PM
Hoof-Hearted - Greetings again, pard!
Of course you can! It's your post; you can do what you want with it!
I haven't spoken to Bill in a month or two, and haven't seen him since Sept. when Major Roger Two was in town. At that time, Bill was VERY hard at work putting the finishing touches to the Movie, and trying to get it all done for the Sundance Film Festival entry deadline for 2012.
I admired his conversion greatly and was sad when I found he had sold it. I won't mention the price, but whoever bought it, stole it for a bargain basement price! I don't know if he included his crimp tool with it; I haven't heard any more about that. Dave "Jed Cooper" H. is considering having Bill convert a pair of Colts (repros) for him. I think a pair of 1851s. I don't know which model of conversion it would be or even if both would be done as the same type. But from what I saw, they will be excellently done!
That was fun day , eh Jeff OCB was super host. I've been rereading this thread & printed...as you know
This will be my "Cherry" into reloading.... Gary's help and the fine little pistol he made me has been the push I needed to give reloading a try.
I built a bench & have a "gifted" new old stock Lyman press...I've contacted Bernie @ Old West Molds...mean while as I assemble the needed tools
Gary will be re-loading for me.