I would like to pick all of yer minds here, if I could. I've been shootin' (when time allows) a pair of R/M's chambered in .44colt.
I'm using .44 russian casings Starline. With 1.7 ffg or fffg goex and a big lube 210 grain bullet, and fed primers. I am using a factory crimp die and putting a slight crimp on them.
While on the line firing them, I can feel the cylinder get tighter with every shot. When I get to the unloading table I find all the primers have a bulge(lack of a better word to use) in them, causing the restriction. In some cases i need to assist with my free hand on the last shot in the guns. I don't have this problem with my .45's in my Roooogers or even with the Schoefield rounds. I bought the .44 russians already loaded with one of the fad powders I don't have problem with primers on them either, while empting those rounds.
So am I overloading with powder? not enough crimp? or should I just switch to the attended .44 colt round? or is there something I have completely missed?
Rooster.
Is there any chance your firing pin(s) is sticking and pulling the primer? Is there a little crater around the firing pin dimple? This used to happen with my Open Tops until I switched firing pins.
Are you using the same primers you were before, or has this always been a problem? What kind of primers are you using? I couldn't tell from your post, but about how much other ammunition have you successfully used in these pistols?
You can't overload it with Black Powder(not with FFFg), not unless you started using 4F (which probably still wouldn't be an overload) Meal-D or Flour Powder used in pyrotechnics. You can underload it and get a type of detonation. Are you getting compression? What does 1.7cc equate to in grains I don't have my lee measures here at the office.
Tell us more and we'll get to the bottom of it.
Regards,
Mako
Rooster,
I found Lee's chart online. It says that 1.3cc is 20.7gr of FFFG and 1.6cc is 25.5gr. Are you sure about using 1.7cc? I can't get that much powder in a Russian case, I can get 21.0 grains and it is a highly compressed load. Those are with the 200 gr Mav Dutchman bullet. You said you were using a 210 gr Big Lube bullet, I think you're confusing your bullets, that's the .45 bullet. Maybe I'm mistaken , but with the Mav Dutchman you must be Superman if you can compress 25+ grains in there. Even if you could, it still wouldn't be an over load.
Now...if you actually meant you were using 0.7cc then you have a problem. If you are , then you are under loading your ammo. 0.7gr is 11.1 grains and you will not have any compression and plenty of room left in the Russian case. That is BAD. In that load the powder won't necessarily burn from the back to the front, you may get almost all of it ignited at exactly the same time and that does cause pressure spikes. This is also a problem with smokeless powders like Bullseye that take up very little volume and lie on the bottom of a case. The primer shoots over the entire load setting it off at the front as well as the back and you get what has been called "detonation." A safe load weight wise becomes unsafe because of the way it is ignited.
Black powder is simple, you fill up the case, leave no voids and a slight compression makes for a safe load, heavier compressions actually aid in creating a cleaner burning controlled pressure rate load.
like I said let us know and we'll help you ferret this out.
~Mako
LR - In mine I am doing 1.3cc lee dipper - I would say it is closer to 18 grains based on my 38spl loads but maybe higher if you ensure you get a perfect scoop.
if you are putting in 1.6 or 1.7 could be too much powder with load. It won't hurt the gun but overcompression will make the primer back out - had this issue with my 11mm french pistolas.
Do your pistolas have the original firing pin or did Frio get you ones with the after market rounded pins? He put the aftermarket in mine and they work great.
If you want you can try 50 of mine and see what happens.
The only thing I noticed in My OT's is that the cases do have to be resized since the cylinder is spec'd to 44 special. I found thios out the hard way relaoding a few cartridges and wondering why I could not crimp the bullets in.
PR
Look at the breech face of your revolver where the firing pin comes through the frame. You may have "cratering" there and need to stone it down some.
If it's functioning with factory or smokeless fodder, nothing wrong with the gun. Ya MIGHT have real tight clearance between the breachface and cylinder that will not tolerate ANY primer protrusion. if that's what it is, yer load that is givving ya trouble is most likely TOO LIGHT.
All primers back out upon firing, from primer only loads to Ooh la la, they all back out. In a normal round, the pressure of firing slams the cartridge back over the backed out primer, reseating it, so ya never see it.
If ya run just a primer, no powder, no bullet (or worse yet, a wax bullet to give a little case pressure), ya almost instantly tie up the gun.
So what I suggest is load ten rounds making absolultely sure yer primers are seated right, put enough BP in the case to get 1 /16" of compression when ya ram in yer bullet, and see what happens. A 200 grain bullet and a firmly compressed load is NOT gonna cause a primer issue. A 200 grain bullet and not enough powder to get a good burn might.
Now, all that said, you might simply have very tight headspace and firing dirty loads ya end up with a bit of crud down in the FRONT of the cylinder, coating the bushing front, so the cylinder ends up pushed back, and yer primers are dragging on the breachface if they ain't seated 100% all the way to start with. I have one ruger that does that, so the gun drags if I have a primer even .003 high. Ya really gotta squish primers in good, but a HEAVY load actually helps reduce that issue, as it burns a bit cleaner.
LR,
I am using the 1.6cc dipper with my 44 Colt R/Ms & the 200gr Big Lube bullet. Compression is good. I could (and have) used the 1.9cc dipper and HEAVY compression as a test. I went back to the 1.6cc as it was closer to the orignal load. I think you are mistaken on your bullet - it is the 200 gr Mav Dutchman bullet since we both buy them from the same vendor - Springfield Slim. I am also using the Federal primers - same as you.
It was always my understanding that you were using the 1.9cc dipper with your 44 Russian cases. I think you are getting too much compression and possibly not enough crimp. You are welcome to try some of my 44 Colt bullets.
Quote from: Sod Buster on November 25, 2008, 02:50:05 PM
LR,
I am using the 1.6cc dipper with my 44 Colt R/Ms & the 200gr Big Lube bullet. Compression is good. I could (and have) used the 1.9cc dipper and HEAVY compression as a test. I went back to the 1.6cc as it was closer to the orignal load. I think you are mistaken on your bullet - it is the 200 gr Mav Dutchman bullet since we both buy them from the same vendor - Springfield Slim. I am also using the Federal primers - same as you.
It was always my understanding that you were using the 1.9cc dipper with your 44 Russian cases. I think you are getting too much compression and possibly not enough crimp. You are welcome to try some of my 44 Colt bullets.
Sod Buster,
I don't think it is physically possible to put 30.3 gr of FFFg (1.9cc) in a Russian Case. 1.6ccs spills out. You're thinking .44 Colt not .44 Russian.
~Mako
Quote from: Mako on November 25, 2008, 03:37:17 PM
Sod Buster,
I don't think it is physically possible to put 30.3 gr of FFFg (1.9cc) in a Russian Case. 1.6ccs spills out. You're thinking .44 Colt not .44 Russian.
I shoot often with Litl Rooster and I know he loads his cases fuller than I do. For example, we both shoot 44-40. I use the 2.2cc dipper and he uses the 2.5cc. I use the 1.6cc dipper for my 44Colt loads. As i stated above, it was "my understanding" that he used the 1.9cc dipper for his 44 Russians. I could be mistaken but I
thought that was what he told me.
If he is using a drop tube, he may well fit it all in??!!
Quote from: panhead pete on November 25, 2008, 07:25:48 PM
If he is using a drop tube, he may well fit it all in??!!
Panhead,
Nope, just tried that using 3F (both Goex and Skirmish). On a .44 Russian 1.7ccs overflows the brim, even with a 24 inch drop tube. 1.6ccs is a case full. 1.9cc overflows a .44 Colt and leaves about 1/32" from the brim on a .44 Spl.
I was pretty sure I knew what I was talking about because I use about 26 grains in my .44 spl loads and they are a compressed load. 1.9ccs is 25.5 gr. I tried the .44 Russian with both Top Brass and Starline cases. The .44 Colt was Starline and the .44 Spl is Winchester.
I tried a 24" drop tube with 27 grains of FFFg which is just under 1.7cc of powder. It always overflowed the .44 Russian cases. Dropped FFg is even worse, it overflowed at less than 26 grains, it can't pack like the FFFg.
I think Rooster is mixing his loading data with .44 Colt or .44 Spl. I'm also not sure how Sod Buster was getting 1.9ccs into a .44 Colt because it goes above the brim on mine. I do like Sod Busters load of 1.6 (25.5 gr) for a light compressed load in a .44 Spl but it is a heavy compressed load in a .44 Colt. I find 24.5 grains works well in a .44 Colt behind a Mav Dutchman. Now those are 2F loads, but I have loaded Cowboy and 3F using the same volume. All of those shoot well in my Open Tops, the .44 Spl and .44 Colt loads work in my '66 chambered for .44 Spl.
I'm like Jack, I think he may be under loading his ammo, either that or he has firing pin problems which are common with open top and at least some of the Richards Mason conversions. Mine used to pierce primers and then pull them out of the pocket.
Regards,
Mako
So Rooster, you're online right now, shed some light on this speculation...
I can guarantee we just want to help.
~Mako
sorry fellas I had to reread my box the .44 russians I am using 1.3 dipper.> I do label and mark the data.< SB I do use 2.5 heaped in the .44-40 It is also the same bullet in both loads....Springfield where are you? What size bullets are they?
These are Fed primers
They are indeed the factory firing pins. I don't load these on the Dillion I have been loading them on a Lee progressive, just a stage at a time.
Resizing the cases after cleaning
I will try to get a better photograph of the way they look after a stage. I took some this morning but they weren't very clear.
When I load at the loading table I always spin the cylinder a couple of turns to ensure I have no primer(high) issues to start with. I also do this when I box them.
FCK I'll look at the faces of the guns tomorrow also. This maybe the problem. I'm looking at a couple cases now and see a ring around primer between the actual case and where the pin left it's mark.
thanks for all the input...I'll see what I come up with.
Rooster,
1.3cc is a great load for the .44 Russian and a 200 gr. Mav Dutchman. Look at the primers on some fired cases you might have, those firing pins might even be going deep into the primers and pulling them back. If it pulls the primer flush or a little proud and leaves a little raised crater around the dimple it will bind. Even a raised crater ring simply created by too much clearance between the pin and hole will bind many pistols.
Sod Buster said you used Federal Primers like he did. That is another clue, Federal cups are thin (some people call them soft). The anvils are also right up against the face. Some hand primers tell you not to use Federal primers because they have a habit of going off in the hand tools. The factory firing pins on the Uberti conversions really leave a deep dimple in Federals, the next time you buy you might try CCIs which are known for their thick cup material.
Best of luck to you,
Mako
Howdy Mako & Lil' Rooster,
Aha!, I stand corrected! I only load 45 LC, 38/357 and 56-50, so I was gessin/theorizin''??!! Now it all makes sense. Under load sounds about right to me as well.
Happy trails,
Panhead
I have been using mostly CCI since it has been available where I live the most and have had great use in 44 russian with the 1.3cc Scheutzen 3F, mixed brass, CCI primers, and a 205 grain Parson Pill.
The funny thing is I use same powder load - 1.3 cc of Scheutzen 3F with small pistol primers with a 158 grain Parson Pill in my 38 spl loads.
The 44 russian loads seem more stout than the 38 spl loads but I think that is more due to shooting the 38spl loads out of full length 51 Navies converted to 38spl with loading levers still attached - whereas the 44 russian guns are 5-1/2 inch guns and are definitely lighter.
PR
I keep reading dimples, these are more like pimples since they are raised, can feel and see. So Mako you feel this is strictly the primer issue? I use Fed's on everything 'cept my 45-70 where I used cci rifle primers. Comparing the depth of the firing pin strike to other cartiridges I use the the OT's leave a deeper dent. This is the only pair of guns I have issues with in this regard. I have used other brands cci- win primers earlier on, but found the Feds were more realiable. In other guns I shoot. I don't hand prime I prime when I size. However I have set off primers hand loading brass shot shells. All brands
Back when I first bought these they seemed to pierce the primer, I soften the points of the firing pin some with a stone. 3 or 4 licks and it seemed to end that problem. I bought these to have a guns to shoot "gunfighter" but I have reverted back to "dualist" to have a free hand to be able to assist when the rotation of the cylinder binds
Quote from: litl rooster on November 25, 2008, 11:42:25 PM
This maybe the problem. I'm looking at a couple cases now and see a ring around primer between the actual case and where the pin left it's mark.
thanks for all the input...I'll see what I come up with.
Uh, I'd inclined to say that you just found your problem. However, if this only happens with BP loads, you may have a combination of problems, but fixing this will probably cure it.
Have a Remington that did this very thing, but only with BP loads. A smokeless load that kicked that case back quickly wouldn't do it. Quick check, the area around the firing pin was depressed, jist a smidgeon, installation of a Colt type bushing was the cure.
Quote from: Cuts Crooked on November 26, 2008, 07:03:06 AM
. Quick check, the area around the firing pin was depressed, jist a smidgeon, installation of a Colt type bushing was the cure.
where would one look to find a bushing?
I still have oodles of Heathen loads for this I will try a handful and compare
LR i would show the guns to Frio.
We shoot very similar guns, with very similar loads - biggest difference is two things.
I use CCI primers - you use federal.
I have the new updated firing pins and have had no issues - you have the older firing pins.
You let me shoot some of your ammo when I first got my guns and so did Sodbuster - my guns worked with no issues with both of your ammo.
I tend to think it is the firing pins - I had this same issue with my 38 spl 1851 Richard Masons until I got the new firing pins in those.
PR
Rooster,
As you know I suspected your primers from the very first posting (and I still suspect them). Most people don't realize what actually happens to a primer when a cartridge goes off. In fact there have been several weapons systems including the original Garand design that used a primer "set back" to unlock the action of a semi-auto or automatic action.
Adirondack Jack actually explained it very well, if you have a low pressure load the primer may sit proud of the case base after it is all over. In a firing sequence the force of the firing pin usually pushes the case forward until it bottoms out on the head space feature, in the case of most revolvers it is the rim. Then the propellant goes off and the first thing that sees pressure is the primer because the burning begins right at the flash hole. The primer gets pushed back by gases flowing back through the flash hole even before the case gets set back. In the case of a narrow long firing pin like we have on our Conversion Pistols and Open Tops the firing pin is enveloped by the primer cup. The thinner cups like Federals deform easily and tend to grab on to the firing pin. Sometimes the protrusion is so great or the firing pin has sharp features on it that it even pierces the primer. If the Firing pin is broad and has limited penetration like the big conical designs you see on Colt Gen 1 SAAs, and the primer cup material is thick enough it may even push the hammer back slightly as the primer sets back, at the very least it has a very broad angled penetration into the primer.
If the load has enough pressure the case will set back to the breech face under recoil and the primer will be pushed back at least flush or further if the firing pin has enough surface area to push it to full pocket depth. With the thin long firing pins like we have on the pistols in question the primer gets pushed flush to the face of the rim by the breech face but usually no further by the firing pin which just penetrates into the primer . A ring of material like the edge of a crater may be upset and be extruded into the firing pin hole in the clearance around the skinny firing pin.
Upon attempting to cock for the next shot the firing pin may stick in the primer if it is very deep or if the firing pin is distorted. The case is now wedged between the breech face at the firing pin hole and the back of the cylinder. The primer is either proud or flush with the rim and a crater rim of upset material is sticking back against the breech face or actually into the firing pin hole.
I had an Open Top lock up on me to the point I had to remove the barrel to free it. After removing the barrel and cylinder the fired case was just hanging there still stuck on the firing pin and had to be pulled off. After this I replaced the firing pins. The firing pins were actually deforming, they were bent and mushroomed a bit. The primers were pierced or sticking on almost every shot.
When these pistols or modifications were originally designed they were still learning about the dynamics of centerfire primers. 19th century primers were sometimes hard to set off and they thought they needed a small cross section and good penetration. With the 1873 Mason design they had already switched to very broad conical shaped firing pins. With our modern primers which move very freely in the primer pockets and with the thinner cup materials we now suffer because of the needs of the 19th century. If this wasn't the case there wouldn't be any market for Bill English's "Happy Trails" replacement firing pins.
I hope he doesn't mind but I'm including a picture from his site showing some firing pins (I added the credit info), his are the two on the far right.
http://www.thesmithshop.com/openfire.html (http://www.thesmithshop.com/openfire.html)
If it is firing pins you can always call him and he can help you with your problem. (401) 921-0147
The best to you and a happy Thanksgiving,
Mako
Quote from: litl rooster on November 26, 2008, 07:10:42 AM
where would one look to find a bushing?
Check with a gunsmith. I can't find them either and don't have to equipment to do the work, but a good smith should be able to acquire and install one pretty easily. (Unfortunately the smith who fixed my Remington is no longer in buisness. :( )
Quote from: litl rooster on November 26, 2008, 07:10:42 AM
where would one look to find a bushing?
I still have oodles of Heathen loads for this I will try a handful and compare
Lil Rooster, look at the breech face of the revolver. Is there raised metal there that looks like it has flowed toward the center? ALL breech faces will peen on ALL revolvers as it's inevitable due to the headspace. That is why all Colt, S&W & even Rugers have recoil plates. No, they are NOT easy to install nor make. It takes a professional revolver smith to do it. The "Big Three" I mentioned will do it for you. With clones you're SOL. I only know of one gunsmith in the country who makes & installs them on clones & that is John Hooper in CA. I had to have two installed on two Open Tops that were locking up as what happens is that the soft primer metal will flow into the cratered breech face and will lock it up until it cools & contracts. It's less apparent when shooting smokeless loads as the "dwell" time is less in the recoiling cartridge case and it hits the breechface faster & harder thereby "freeing" itself on the rebound recoil impulse. Some people have merely stoned the breech face raised burrs back flush after reaming out the FP hole a frog hair with a proper sized drill bit BY HAND. I think Driftwood Johnson once said that's how he solved his.
Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on November 26, 2008, 05:28:00 PM
Lil Rooster, look at the breech face of the revolver. Is there raised metal there that looks like it has flowed toward the center? ALL breech faces will peen on ALL revolvers as it's inevitable due to the headspace. That is why all Colt, S&W & even Rugers have recoil plates. No, they are NOT easy to install nor make. It takes a professional revolver smith to do it. The "Big Three" I mentioned will do it for you. With clones you're SOL. I only know of one gunsmith in the country who makes & installs them on clones & that is John Hooper in CA. I had to have two installed on two Open Tops that were locking up as what happens is that the soft primer metal will flow into the cratered breech face and will lock it up until it cools & contracts. It's less apparent when shooting smokeless loads as the "dwell" time is less in the recoiling cartridge case and it hits the breechface faster & harder thereby "freeing" itself on the rebound recoil impulse. Some people have merely stoned the breech face raised burrs back flush after reaming out the FP hole a frog hair with a proper sized drill bit BY HAND. I think Driftwood Johnson once said that's how he solved his.
I did find a small burr on the flash shield around the vent hole. On one of them, if there was one on the orther I could not feel it with my finger. Just the same I took a stone to them both and cleaned them off. The Toy store was packed Wed. morning as the "blackgun" buy'n frenzie continues, so I was not able to stay any longer to get different primers to try. I am going to go head and order the better firing pins and try them.
I like to thank all of you that have responded to this.
Lots of good info from the pards. ;D One other possibility. If the chambers are not smooth, upon ignition, the case locks momentarily in the cylinder, allowing the primers to back out to the recoil shield. Smooth chambers will allow the cartridge case to back out and reseat the primer. An interesting test would be to put a very small amount of case lube on the outside of a cartridge case, fire it and see if the primers reseat.
w44wcf
Quote from: w44wcf on November 28, 2008, 08:54:29 AM...An interesting test would be to put a very small amount of case lube on the outside of a cartridge case, fire it and see if the primers reseat.
w44wcf
Ballistic lab tests have proven that lube in the chamber of a firearm TREBLES rearward case thrust. Always remove any trace of lube from the chamber(s) before firing as to allow the brass to expand against the chamber walls w/o a lube film between the case & wall.
FCK is correct, this is definitely hazardous in high power rifle cartridges. It may not be an issue with the lower pressures we see with BP, BUT remember we are talking about "relatively" thin wall cylinders. I think his warning should be heeded.
I've seen some nasty ruptured cases in machine guns where the gunners were lubing the chambers or the cartridges themselves trying to keep worn out barrels in service. It had the opposite effect they ended up with separated heads and the rest of the case stuck in the chamber.
So once again, I'd think more than twice about what FCK said.
~Mako
FCK, Mako,
Thank you. I should have mentioned that this practice was not to be used with high pressure rifle loads. It is not an issue with the low pressure b.p. revolver loads we are talking about here though. It is a way of determining if there is an issue in the finish in the chambers. ;)
w44wcf