:D
Found this listing on GunBroker just now.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=116818855
What'll they come up with next? ??? ???
What's next, an in line ML machine gun? ::) ;)
Im tempted to bid on it just for the "curiosity" factor :D
;D After laughing for ten mins. I just have one question. What class would that come under ;)
I am totally at a loss as to WHY!!!!!! Why not load yer .45 cases with 777!! and pop a DD ROA atop `n` ya got yerownself SEVEN BP rds!!!
That said, its a brill piece of engineering, and it has got to be collectible!!
Paladin (Whats amazed with what folks kin conjure up :D ) UK
What class indeed, Frontiersman Wild Bunch ! Adios Sgt.Jake
Quote from: Paladin UK on November 23, 2008, 01:25:41 PM
I am totally at a loss as to WHY!!!!!! Why not load yer .45 cases with 777!! and pop a DD ROA atop `n` ya got yerownself SEVEN BP rds!!!
That said, its a brill piece of engineering, and it has got to be collectible!!
Paladin (Whats amazed with what folks kin conjure up :D ) UK
I've done that. 777 and a 160 gr LRN in an AMT Hardballer. Functioned without any trouble and rang steel every pull of the trigger.
FM
Gun Butcher,
I'm not sure what "class" that would be. You'd have to cap them after the buzzer otherwise you'd have hammers down on loaded chambers abd you'd have to reload the other eight rounds on the clock. You'd need and hour glass to time the shooter...
Besides it's post 1899 and not a revolver, but it's still fun to think about.
~Mako
Quote from: fingersmcgee on November 23, 2008, 11:02:18 PM
I've done that. 777 and a 160 gr LRN in an AMT Hardballer. Functioned without any trouble and rang steel every pull of the trigger.
FM
Fingers,
Not trying to "one up you," but I shot an IDPA match a several years back with the Real Powder in a 5" 1911. I loaded 100 rounds with H&G 68 SWC (200gr) and a case full of FFFg. (It's been a long time so don't hold me to my memories of the load and velocity) I don't remember the load but it must have been somewhere around 16 grains . I seem to remember the velocity was in the mid to high 600s fps range, because other shooters were accusing me of shooting a "minor" caliber. Taper crimps don't work well to help you build pressure, and I was tempted to try a slight roll crimp, but I was worried about reliability. Only failure was a "tap and rack" clearable stove pipe somewhere between 30 and 40 rounds. I started cleaning the barrel, breech and magwell after each stage and finished the match.
I got the idea from another shooter who said he had had used 230gr RN in a S&W 25 at a match on a bet. You could run a wheelgun all day long with that load. Someone said you couldn't do that with an automatic and I considered that a challenge. The only change I made to the pistol was using a 12# or 14# recoil spring intended for one of my .38 Super race guns instead of the standard spring. I was worried about a low recoil impulse, but I might have been better served using a standard 16# spring. I failed to mention I had one round slow to chamber, I could literally see it moving forward in slow motion as it came to battery (crud build up in the chamber at the headspace area.)
The recoil is different, it is "slower" feeling and definitely soft (a push instead of a sharp whack). I'm sure you can't limp wrist these loads and I never did try it "unsupported weak hand." It definitely sounded different, great boom and smoke.! I wasn't shooting Cowboy at the time, so it was just a novelty. I have shot Black Powder and C&B since I was a kid so I knew I needed a packed case and I even had the powder available. I should have made a few wagers, no one thought I could even finish the match, much less be competitive. I do remember I finished 11th out of 28 shooters, gave me crowing rights for a few months.
I may have to work up a reliable load and try it at a "Wild Bunch" type of match some time. Hmmmmm...I need to get a weak side holster and do it Gunfighter style! Oh, now I have a project.
~Mako
Looks like a wonderful solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
;D Sgt.Jake, that FWB class sounds like it would work, their combining everything else.
Noz, I think you hit the nail on the head, it's goota be one of them " I'll bet you couldn't" kinda things. ::)
Mako,
I was concerned - no that's not the correct term; wondering, yeah, that's it - I was wondering whether the recouil spring in the pistol would allow it to function with the 777 load. I was loading about 20gr of powder with the Mastercraft 160 grain LRN. I wasnt trying an endurance run with the load - only loaded 10 rounds - just wanted to see if it'd work. A also loaded a dozen or so other loads with Accurate N100 and Unique powder with 160 and 200 grain bullets. Even teh lightly loaded smokeless rounds functioned ok in the pistol. Had two failures to feed out of 100 rounds that I attributed to me limp wristing them. I didnt try the 200 grain bullet with 777 during tat session. I'm going to the next time though.
Regards,
Fingers (Wild Bunch Frontier Cartridge Duelist and sometimes B-Western Frontiersman) McGee
Fingers,
I like your "(Wild Bunch Frontier Cartridge Duelist and sometimes B-Western Frontiersman)" classifications. I shoot what I call Frontier Gunfighter, which of course isn't really a class, but I almost always trounce any Gunfighters who I am technically competing against.
I think more people should shoot creative categories.
Life is too short to spend it shooting "traditional." Hmmmmmmph, "TRADITIONAL." Now there's an oxymoron for yah. It's about as traditional as designer jeans.
I'm going to pull a bullet and see what my load actually was, I dug through my old ammo tonight and found 18 rounds of that Holy Black .45 ACP ammo I loaded 12 years and 4 months ago according to the box label. I can't remember which spring I used I usually used a 12# spring on my compensated .38 Supers, but I have 13s, 14s and 15s as well. I'm thinking I tried the 14# and it worked so I stuck with it. But I still think a heavier spring would probably be better. My usual test for the minimum spring is one round with an empty magazine, shoot it weak hand and let it recoil. If it doesn't lock the slide back then go down one pound lighter until it does. I then strip eight rounds from a magazine one at a time from slide lock to make sure it chambers them all. If not I move back up one and try again. Chambering trumps locking back, and that is my deciding factor if I am on the "fence." I don't use cut down springs on a 5 inch pistol, you can get full length springs in almost every weight from 7 # to 28#. I didn't do my usual test because I expected the pistol to foul and wanted a bit lighter spring. Looking back on it now that may have been backwards though because a fouled 1911 has trouble going into battery.
~Mako
Mako,
This was the first time this pistol had been out of the safe in at elast 5 years, maybe longer. Just don't shoot "modern" stuff anymore. I havent the fintest idea what the rating on the stock Hardballer spring is. I probably should get an assortment if I'm gonna start shooting it again. The 777 lads were just for grins; but I may load up a couple hundred and use it at the next Steel Challenge match. Give my Glock & Ruger Mark I Target a rest, and see the expression on everyones face when the smoke clouds billow out. ;D ;D.
Fingers
Quote from: Noz on November 24, 2008, 03:43:19 PM
Looks like a wonderful solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
That thing does indeed solve a real problem. It is a "UK legal" 1911 conversion!
I love my 1911 ... but not THAT much.
;)
Now, making working loads like what Fingers and Mako are talking about - that's different!
;D
Well I pulled three old Holy Black .45 ACP rounds I mentioned in a previous post above and this is what I found.
- The powder was barely compressed, it wasn't packed hard enought to require me to use a pick to dislodge it.
- had a hard time getting accurate volume measurements because some of the grains were stuck together so at the end I took all three together and I got what appears to be between 50 and 51 grains by volume (maybe 17 grains per case).
- Each charge weighed approximately 16.2 Grains by WEIGHT
- 1.2ccs of Skirmish FFFg weighs an average of 17.8 gr and 1.2ccs of Goex FFFg weighs an average of 17.5gr (5 measurements).
- The powder was probably Goex, I know it was FFFg so I'm going to say it was 16.5 to 17.0 grains by volume.
- Using new powder the case will hold 19 gains to about 3/16" from the top.
- 20.0 grains looks like a possible candidate for a heavy compressed load (but it would require a roll crimp).
- I may have to back off to 19.0 grains because I use a taper crimp on .45 ACP, and the bullet may get pushed back out.
- Bullets were all H&G 68 SWC (200 gr) seated to 1.25 OAL (I shot 10s of thousands of these per year with W231 when I competed).
I'll set up a pair of 1911s for BP and make a report in the future on what I find. I need to chronograph them as well. I will probably try some 225 or 230 grain RN bullets, I think these might give me a better impulse with the Holy Black. I'm thinking 17.5 to 18.5 grains this time. I also have a can of Pinnacle I never use, it would be cleaner, but it sort of defeats the purpose of making a BP .45 ACP load.
I'll betcha I could run a pair of these in a Wild Bunch format since most stages only require 5 rounds from each pistol. I would to have to shoot in "Modern Class" though, almost all of my slides have front serrations and the only ones without beavertail safeties are commanders or unshot collector guns. Since you have to start in condition 3 with the pistols that would preclude two 1911s in Gunfighter style. I guess theoretically you could pull one 1911 load a round then draw a revolver with the free hand, but I'm sure there is probably some rule against that. If I could do Gunfighter it would be an interesting project otherwise it is just sumthin' different.
Later,
Mako
17 grains of FFG Goex ought to be OK, but with that 200, 18 of swiss would cycle like GI ball ;)
Jack,
I'm not sure I can load 18 grains with a taper crimp. I might have to compress my powder first like Grape Shot does. Well I will try and see what I can do. As you saw in my post I said it would be a heavy compressed load, those are the kind I prefer but they are with hard roll crimps.
I guess for the few rounds I would need for one or two Wild Bunch matches I could compress loads. Hmmmmmm, maybe if I added a compression rod on stage 3 instead of the Powder Check. That might work at that.
Thanks,
Mako
Quote from: Mako on November 27, 2008, 12:57:39 PM
Jack,
I'm not sure I can load 18 grains with a taper crimp. I might have to compress my powder first like Grape Shot does. Well I will try and see what I can do. As you saw in my post I said it would be a heavy compressed load, those are the kind I prefer but they are with hard roll crimps.
I guess for the few rounds I would need for one or two Wild Bunch matches I could compress loads. Hmmmmmm, maybe if I added a compression rod on stage 3 instead of the Powder Check. That might work at that.
Thanks,
Mako
If ya use a .45 ACP sizer and expander (not Colt), and a taper crimp with a bit of authority (but still enough there to headspace on the rim), neck tension will hold em.
Quote from: Adirondack Jack on November 27, 2008, 02:32:06 PM
If ya use a .45 ACP sizer and expander (not Colt), and a taper crimp with a bit of authority (but still enough there to headspace on the rim), neck tension will hold em.
Jack,
I'm not bragging, but I I have literally shot hundreds of thousands of rounds of .45 ACP (no exaggeration) not to mention .38 Super and .40 S&W through 1911 pattern pistols. But...I have my doubts. I also never use anything other than an ACP die set when reloading that caliber, so I'm not sure about the advisement to use said die set.
I was involved with some experimentation a few years back with compressed loads in .45 ACP and a forerunner of the .45 GAP cartridge. Had problems with bullets backing out of taper crimped loads under recoil. These were loaded on a Dillon 1050 with the seating die being moved to station 6, crimper on 7 and a custom resize die on station 8. You can't use a standard sizing die because it over-compresses the case and bullet. The case springs back, the bullet doesn't and you get a loose crimp. I also used custom resizers on my XL650 for revolver loads at #5 until I switched to Lee Factory Crimp Dies last year. You can get almost any of the die manufacturers to make them just tell them you want loaded round resizing rings. An auto pistol round lives and dies by a good crimp that correctly sets head space.
We tried everything to get a crimp that was reliable, with and without final resizing to get rid of bulges from the compressed loads. I will say this though, smokeless powder doesn't compress like the Holy Black, BP breaks up and compresses well. When you pull a compressed smokeless load it isn't clumped and in a compressed mass like BP. Finally ended up using Bullet and Primer sealer and rolling cannalures on jacketed bullets before insertion. With Lead bullets we just painted it on at the grease groove. This seemed to work, but it was TOO MUCH work. Had a friend ask me about Trail Boss in .45 ACP last year, said something about compressed loads and I almost screamed "NO!!!" Anyway He said he was going to try some light compression, I told him that might work.
Jack, if you put one of your taper crimped loads in an inertia puller and figure out how much force you need to pull a bullet and then repeat that test with a heavy roll crimp, or even a medium crimp (probably even a light roll crimp) you will find you can never dislodge the bullet if you use the same strike force as you did for the taper crimp.
Good ignition, clean burning and reliability with BP requires good crimps. If you look in the barrel of my percussion pistols they will always be dirtier than my cartridge guns shooting similar loads. Getting the max amount of powder isn't my goal, getting reliable BP loads that have the least amount of fouling possible is. Having said all of that I will attempt to get as much powder as I can in the case that meets those conditions. It might be closer to 19 than 18, but I'll say now based on experience that I doubt it.
I appreciate your post and any insight you can give me, please don't take this response as me unloading on you.
Regards and Happy Thanksgiveing to you and all of yours,
Mako
Pard, I hear ya with the HOT stuff, especially in light guns, I really do. I know for example some titanium revolvers in .45 want ya to run nothing heavier than a 200, but that's with warm smokeless loads and a light gun. But I really can't wrap my head around this with a 200 grainer driven by BLACK! I just don't see how it is gonna have bullets back out under recoil? I can't imagine 17 or 18 grains BP developing sufficient recoil impulse to pull bullets. BP is such a gentle "push" compared to hot smokeless stuff that I can't see it. How could ya even begin to shoot a Walker or Dragoon if that was the case? Maybe, but I can't imagine it.
Quote from: Adirondack Jack on November 27, 2008, 06:48:40 PM
Pard, I hear ya with the HOT stuff, especially in light guns, I really do. I know for example some titanium revolvers in .45 want ya to run nothing heavier than a 200, but that's with warm smokeless loads and a light gun. But I really can't wrap my head around this with a 200 grainer driven by BLACK! I just don't see how it is gonna have bullets back out under recoil? I can't imagine 17 or 18 grains BP developing sufficient recoil impulse to pull bullets. BP is such a gentle "push" compared to hot smokeless stuff that I can't see it. How could ya even begin to shoot a Walker or Dragoon if that was the case? Maybe, but I can't imagine it.
Jack,
I apologize, I must not be explaining it well, but I think you are missing my point...but I have found the bullets moving out has less to do with recoil than with too much powder in the case to be able to get it compressed and not having to fight to keep the bullet from being pushed back out. Recoil just is the impetuous to move the entire cartridge in the magazine fore and aft and cause an already precarious hold on an over-stuffed cartridge to let it slip. In my experience even 18 grains is a compressed load, it exerts some pressure on the base of the bullet. If the bullet moves forward then you have a less than reliable round for feeding. It's all about feeding. This isn't just an experiment just to put some BP in a .45 ACP case make it go bang and call it good, it is an attempt to make a match reliable load.
I don't think a dragoon or a walker with 40 to 60 grains of powder is equivalent to a 1911. Isn't that comparing Apples to Oranges? Neither revolver has to feed a round from a magazine, neither one has to deal with a slide impulse. Bullets do move forward in a percussion revolver. I have pictures somewhere of balls being set forward in Army models by recoil along with the measurements taken with a caliper to record the movement forward. I was told it happened, I didn't fully believe it because I use a cylinder loader to compress the ball and powder charge. I no longer use .451 balls because of it. A ball or bullet in a cylinder is much like a taper crimp, nothing to keep it in place but the walls. Once the ball is pressed in there is no hoop stress on it, it is merely friction. I switched from .451 to .454 because you get a larger engagement band as the periphery is sheared at insertion. I can also tell you the slipping gets worse as the cylinder gets fouled. More fouling equaled more slippage in my tests. The same is true of a taper crimp, it only has friction to keep it in place. A roll crimp is a different animal, it has a mechanical grip on the bullet.
Have you ever used a Colt .22LR conversion unit on a 1911, the felt recoil impulse isn't created solely by the 37 grain bullet. Most of the impulse is created by the slide moment. The conversion unit was designed to mimic the recoil of a standard .45 load. Of course it doesn't completely, but it has a recoil impulse greater than any other .22 I have every had the opportunity to shoot. A short recoil action semi-automatic is a dynamic recoil platform by its very nature. We are not talking 4 lb 9 ounce horse pistols here... So why don't .45 ACP rounds with an HG68 or a Hornady 200 gr FMJSWC and 5.7 gr of W231 move forward? That's because there isn't any base pressure trying to push the bullet out. I have seen bullet movement with compressed loads (definitely not W231). The same velocity with a different powder, In my experience no compression equals no movement. I have found compressed loads are a problem with .45 ACP , the 11.5 X 19mm and the .45 HP rounds using smokeless powders as well. You run into compression issues with cartridges shorter than the .45 ACP.
I've decided to move beyond 200 grain bullets. I'm going to use a 225 or 230 in this load because I need the initial recoil impulse to assure reliability. Lighter bullets are not the direction to head when reliability and a low initial impulse are already a factor.
I'm not meaning to be disrespectful. I don't know you except for your forays into the areas of the .45 Special and such. I've shot a match with a 1911 using BP (not a Cowboy match, but against a bunch of hotrod limited class pistols), and I now intend to do it some more, this time on a more even playing field with Wild Bunch shooters.
No disrespect intended on any account.
Have a nice Thanksgiving
~Mako
Back to the original topic, it makes me think of what my brother the master machinist says when someone says something can't be done: "Hide somewhere close by and watch me."
Quote from: Frenchie on December 01, 2008, 09:09:37 PM
Back to the original topic, it makes me think of what my brother the master machinist says when someone says something can't be done: "Hide somewhere close by and watch me."
So very true...
~Mako
I've been thinkin' about the market for this strange shootin' iron. I finally figured that it is either a gift for the man who has everything or a way to entice someone who has spent a lifetime mastering John Browning's square gun over to the darkside.
I can see that, I know lots of guys that can't shoot a revolver after spending years with the 1911. By the same token I started mastering the DA revolver's long trigger pull and I can't shoot a 1911 for sour apples. I even went to one of those expensive shooting schools once. Funny, when that vacation was over and I strapped on my service revolver I discover that I couldn't hardly shoot it. It took two months of twice a week practice plus PPC matches to get my DA pull back.
Lucklly the Dept let me keep my .357 when they switched to the autoloaders. Today, though, there are a lot of forty year old lifetime shooters that have never fired a revolver.