Pards,
For those of you that may have an interest, I compared the b.p. case capacity of the early "solid head button pocket" (aka: balloon head) cases with current brass. The data below is the amount of b.p. the the early cases hold as compared to modern brass.
.38 Special +1 gr.
.44-40 + 2 grs.
.45 Colt +3 grs.
.45-70 + 3 grs.
Sincerely,
w44wcf
Thanks
I ran into a bunch of 45 Colt Balloonhead cases and a few 38 Special Balloonheads last year. I've been meaning to do just such a comparison, just haven't gotten a round tuit yet.
Thanks,
I'd like to know the water volume of both if that's possible.
DD-DLoS
That is interesting, and for the most part the difference in capacity , probably wouldn't show up on the target , or the chronograph.
What method did you use to fill the cases?
That's why Elmer Keith was able to get more performance out of his 44 Specials than is possible today.
I don't think that had much to do with what Elmer got out of his 44 spec. Folks are a bunch more mamby pamby about pressure now than then.
My 44 specials digest anything Elmer ever put thru his, and do just fine, and the chronograph says they can be doing magnum velocity without breaking a sweat.
Most of the time it seems like it takes at least 2 grs to make enough velocity difference in full power black powder loads,that the chronograph will start to show any spread worth worrying about, and even then the 2 grs will make less deviation than , even a few tenths of a grain with smokeless.
Dang, I just can't remember rite offhand, but did Elmer spell his last name with the i before the e, or the other way around? Anyway, he did decommission a number of fine S&W 44 Spl guns and probably some others as well before the 44 Magnum got worked out and made.
The real reason the 44 Magnum was made with 1/8" longer brass was so that shooters couldn't chamber it in 44 Spl guns. Actually some of the loads worked up in developing the 44 Magnum will do just as well in 44 Spl cases, and perhaps some will do even better. All that said, when shooting these fine pistol chamberings with Holy Black there's not enough velocity difference to sneeze at. The real factor is which one will work best in your rifle?
I happen to shoot 44 Magnums and my rifles seem to like them a little better than 44 Specials. They both do a fine job with a compressed charge of Holy Black under the Mav Dutchman Big Lube™ bullet. I can honestly say that I've not loaded either one of 'em with heathen fad smokeyless powder for at least 10 years. I have, however, loaded many thousands with bp.
Both the 44 Special and 44 Magnum are fine black powder cartridges. Care needs to be taken to get a good stout load under a heavy enuf (200 grain) bullet so that pressure builds up and makes the brass seal the chamber. If that's done there is not a blowback problem.
One advantage that the 44 Magnum (44 ELR or Extra Long Russian) has over the 44 Special is that every now and then some heathen shooter will have a couple boxes of empty brass that he will pass along free. Since I only load 'em with Genuine Powder, he never wants 'em back. hehehehehehehe (Dastardly snicker)
DD-DLoS
I just looked up at my copy of "Hell, I was there!" and it's Keith.
Quote from: Ranch 13 on May 06, 2008, 04:48:27 PM
I don't think that had much to do with what Elmer got out of his 44 spec. Folks are a bunch more mamby pamby about pressure now than then.
My 44 specials digest anything Elmer ever put thru his, and do just fine, and the chronograph says they can be doing magnum velocity without breaking a sweat.
Most of the time it seems like it takes at least 2 grs to make enough velocity difference in full power black powder loads,that the chronograph will start to show any spread worth worrying about, and even then the 2 grs will make less deviation than , even a few tenths of a grain with smokeless.
Elmer himself said he could not get as much powder in the new cases therefore he could not get the performance level he wanted out of the 44 Special. This was pre-mag days.
I don't believe that you can tell the difference in a full balloon case of FFFg and a full solid head case of the same.
Howdy Again
Here is a photo I came across on my hard drive today. I'm not exactly sure where I got it, maybe even from a posting on this board. Anyway, it is a pretty graphic representation between the powder capacity of a 44-40 Balloon Head case and a modern Solid Head 44-40 case.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/balloonhead44-40cutaway.jpg)
Elmer ran compressed loads of 2400 and not a few loads duplexed with a little BE under the 2400. He was of course the prototypical adrenaline junkie, needing the little bit of fear involved when touching off loads as likely to break guns as power level records.
The case capacity increase helped ease pressures and give us his monster loads at safer pressures, but we COULD have just as easily ended up with a .44 special on steroids, maybe a precurser to something like the Redhawk, and done so with "special" length chambers. But, 1.6 OAL was already with us with .45 Colt, so it wasn't a big deal to make .44s at that length.....
When comparing the capacity of balloon head vs modern brass, I see it this way. Yes, the balloon head brass held more, but when they were first developed there was no "gun exploder" powder to stuff 'em with. Not all of the "balloon head" cases were made of brass either.
Since this is a black powder forum, I'll confine my remarks to this venue. Whether or not a couple of grains maximum made a significant difference was, I think, less important than the fact that the guns could only handle just so much pressure. A steady diet of whomper loads would make the chambers egg shaped and eventually cause the guns to come from together.
Now, it's a different cat when we take a modern Ruger, built tough as a tank, and load it up with very stout loads in balloon head cases. The guns may very well handle the rounds very well and ask for more. That wasn't always the case, and certainly wasn't the case back in "the time".
So, when considering the shooting of very stout charges in old balloon head cases, consider this. Without regard to the case, is your gun made to stand the very strong loads? Most clones/replicas are not. Certainly none of the open tops were made to handle the charges that could be put in those cases. Black powder, probably. Smokeyless heathen fad powder. . . no way.
So, this is more of an academic discussion of actual volume available, not pressure maximums. Don't let a couple of grains more volume ever lead to the thought that the cases were safe with anything but Holy Black.
Now, I'd like to get my hands on some of those balloon head cases to shoot with my ROA via the Kirst Konverter cylinders. 40 grains of FFFg under a PRS bullet sounds like a hoot to me.
DD-DLoS
DD, to the best of my knowedge, one piece, boxer primed cartridges have three distinct generations.
The first was essentially no different than the brass 12GA hulls we use today. The case head is stamped and the rim is a folded bit of metal. Inside, one can see the fold.
The case like the pic of the sectioned one above followed, and is what we commonly call "balloon head".
The MODERN cases like we have today debuted with high pressure rounds, specifically the .357 magnum, circa 1935. By the advent of the .44 mag in the 50's, "modern" cases were in use in several chamberings, and very shortly thereafter they became the standard, even for calibers like .45 Colt.
By that time, nobody cared about BP, as none were being sold and only a few anachronistic handloaders were still playing with charcoal. AAMOF were it not for CAS, it's quite likely BP in the kinds of guns we use would be deader than 105 yr old oysters.
DD,
Regarding water capacity, in a bulleted case - In the past I have used a hypodermic needle to introduce water into the case through the primer flash hole until full then compared the weight to the pre water filled bulleted case. Unfortunately, that technique does not work with balloon head cases since the water level will not rise above the bottom of the primer pocket inside the case.
Ranch 13,
To arrive at the data, I used fired cases (from the same chamber) so that the bullets would be a slip fit. I determined the cartridge oal prior to compression by dissecting original b.p. cartridges. Once I had determined that oal, I placed black powder into the individual cases, with the bullet just sitting on the powder charge until the established oal was equalled. I then weighed the individual charges to find the difference between the case capacities.
DJ,
Thank you for the nice picture. The one on the left is considered a "solid head, button pocket" type which profile fits the description "balloon head". The early ones made by UMC carried the letters "S H" as part of the headstamp.
AJ,
Thank you for the additional info.
The book "W.R.A. CO. Headstamped Cartridges and their Variations - Volume 1" show the following case head types:
> Folded Head (balloon head configuration)
> Folded Head with reinforcing cup (balloon head configuration)
> Solid Head With Button Pocket (balloon head configuration) - type that I compared with modern brass
> Solid head with Solid Web - modern brass
w44wcf
Dick D, if you want to load forty grains of BP, go ahead. Use your compression die and mash the powder down and seat a bullet. Black powder does not mind massive compression. I've pulled the bullets out of old rounds and the powder was just one solid mass.
I did load forty grains ahint of a 250 grain bullet, never again. In my Colt clones the recoil was downright ferocious. I thought the trigger guard had broken my signaling finger.
Loading forty grains is fairly easy, but slow. Pour ten grains into the case and mash it down, hard. Pour ten more and mash it down. Repeat. Repeat again. It has to be mashed down in steps otherwise the top layer in hard as a rock and the bottom is still a bit fluffy. I'm not sure that the charge needs to be broken down into quarters, thirds might also work. Quarters was just easy math.
Bottom line, it can be done. It just isn't worth the trouble.
I agree with ya Pete.
If I want that kind of whomp I'll go get some 44 Magnum store bought stuff and save the empties for loading with bp. For SASS shootn', I want the fun, not the pain.
In all my SASS guns, a compressed load of bp does shoot best. No fillers, just powder and bullet. That's probably why AJs C45Spl brass is getting such good reviews for accuracy.
DD-DLoS
Being a "purist" of sorts, I like to duplicate the early vintage b.p. cartridge loadings. That means 40 grs. in the .44-40 and either 55 or 70 grs. in the .45-70 ;D
The early .45 Colt b.p. colt cartridges did vary ......28 or 30 or 35 or 38 or 40 grs. I like 40 grs. ;D
It's great replicating history!
w44wcf
;D Shooting 37 grs of goex 3f behind a rem bulk 255 in a 5.5 inch barrel , you get a pretty good idea about why the troopers howled for a lighter load in their sidearms. :)
38 grs of the same stuff behind a 180 in the 38wcf lets you know why that one had some followiing also.
The original .45 Colt was loaded with 30 to 35 gr. (usually the former) of FFg. Remington loaded this round with 40 gr. years later as Elmer Keith often wrote about it. An easier way to get 40 gr. in the case is to slowly drop tube the powder and then not seat the bullet quite so deep.
Quote from: Driftwood Johnson on May 07, 2008, 03:44:11 PM
Howdy Again
Here is a photo I came across on my hard drive today. I'm not exactly sure where I got it, maybe even from a posting on this board. Anyway, it is a pretty graphic representation between the powder capacity of a 44-40 Balloon Head case and a modern Solid Head 44-40 case.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Driftwood_Johnson/balloonhead44-40cutaway.jpg)
In reference to the primer pocket design in the UMC cartridge vs the primer pocket design in the Star-Line pocket. Which is better? Some what interesting if you ask me.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/balloonhead44-40cutawaya.jpg)
Quote from: Ranch 13 on May 06, 2008, 04:48:27 PM
I don't think that had much to do with what Elmer got out of his 44 spec. Folks are a bunch more mamby pamby about pressure now than then.
If you blew up a gun in those days, well, we'd all say, 'shoot boy yer gotta expect that when ya'll go pedal to the metal all the time!' then we'd all have a bit of a laugh about it and put the gun on display so that our friends could give us a razzing about it. Nowadays, there is a huge panic, is the manafacturer/club/range/whatever liable, who's fault is it, etc, etc, etc.
My brother gave me a perfect example, he is an Industrial Arts teacher in a radical church owned training centre which prepares high schoolers and out of work youths for the workplace. The 'school' is set up like a factory and actually does contract machining work, etc, so the atmosphere is more realistic. They have an auto lathe and have had a contract making towballs for many years. They are made from long lenghts of round bar and as the machine was drawing towards the end of a bar, another was bought up and placed on the ground behind the machine. About 10 years ago one of the new students walked by and tripped on the bar, Tom remembers saying 'watch where yer going mate!' and everyone had a bit of a laugh about the dreamy hormone befuddled youth.
Ten years or so pass with no further problems and the same thing happens to another young dreamer floating by. This time it is different. The poor unfortunate is carted off to teh clinc for a check up. A safety meeting is held by the safety committe and a risk assessment is done. As a result it was seen that to conform to the laws of the land and avoid any further 'accidents' a clip together fence and signage is purchased and everyone has to go twenty metres out of their way because some dreamer wasn't paying attention. The ultimate decision was to re-design the shop and turn the machine around so that no one had to walk by it. My brother pointed out that it would take 37 years of the contracts profit to pay for these grand plans, but he was shouted own. The tail is wagging the dog it seems!
4 Fingers - sadly it is true in soooo many places.
We (collective "we" not the we as in right here) try to legislate safety in every part of life. It is bad or even tragic when your Grandson (or Son, Daughter - whatever) hurts himself. NO parent or person with any feelings at all can ignore what happens.
However, there is a certain necessity of Life and Learning to Live that requires some form of failure. As good parents, we try to keep our loved ones as safe as possible, but it just ain't possible to do fully.
This - to ME - is one of the biggest disservices we have done and IMHO is one of the primary reasons our kids (again, collectively, NOT OURS) are becoming real problems and even some becoming misfits. We have become so afraid of failure (and of taking responsibility for actions that may not work) that we can't handle the occasional failure or pain. We don't keep score at our little kid's sports league; our education system is geared toward "not hurting the children's psyche;" and so on. Oh, no! We must make sure they feel good about themselves!
BULL!
This is one of, IMHO the primary reasons that our society (and I dare say our beloved America) is "going down the tube$." And yes, the dollar sign indicates another weakness our society has. You'd better have plenty of ca$h or you won't amount to a hill of beans. Don't worry if the kid can actually DO something worthwhile - just make sure he makes piles of ca$h. And feels good about himself.
(stepping off my soapbox)
I'm not sure exactly how this gets into the capacity of balloon head vs. solid head cases, but it does perhaps show some perceived safety thoughts. Would it be safe to say that the biggest reason for the change was for ease of manufacturing?
;)
And Driftwood, thanks for posting that wonderful picture. It shows the many new folks around here ... in no uncertain terms ... exactly what the difference is between styles of cartridge cases.
Quote from: Steel Horse Bailey on December 27, 2011, 10:58:35 AM
4 Fingers - sadly it is true in soooo many places.
We (collective "we" not the we as in right here) try to legislate safety in every part of life. It is bad or even tragic when your Grandson (or Son, Daughter - whatever) hurts himself. NO parent or person with any feelings at all can ignore what happens.
However, there is a certain necessity of Life and Learning to Live that requires some form of failure. As good parents, we try to keep our loved ones as safe as possible, but it just ain't possible to do fully.
This - to ME - is one of the biggest disservices we have done and IMHO is one of the primary reasons our kids (again, collectively, NOT OURS) are becoming real problems and even some becoming misfits. We have become so afraid of failure (and of taking responsibility for actions that may not work) that we can't handle the occasional failure or pain. We don't keep score at our little kid's sports league; our education system is geared toward "not hurting the children's psyche;" and so on. Oh, no! We must make sure they feel good about themselves!
BULL!
This is one of, IMHO the primary reasons that our society (and I dare say our beloved America) is "going down the tube$." And yes, the dollar sign indicates another weakness our society has. You'd better have plenty of ca$h or you won't amount to a hill of beans. Don't worry if the kid can actually DO something worthwhile - just make sure he makes piles of ca$h. And feels good about himself.
(stepping off my soapbox)
I'm not sure exactly how this gets into the capacity of balloon head vs. solid head cases, but it does perhaps show some perceived safety thoughts. Would it be safe to say that the biggest reason for the change was for ease of manufacturing?
;)
And Driftwood, thanks for posting that wonderful picture. It shows the many new folks around here ... in no uncertain terms ... exactly what the difference is between styles of cartridge cases.
You hit the nail on the head. I could care less if someone does not want to be "safe" with what they do....as long as if what they are doing does not hurt someone else if all hell breaks loose! Being safe and enjoying life they way "you" want to enjoy it is fine by me. ;D It would be safer for me not to have to drive 50 miles a day for work, or fly an airplane or ride a motorcycle or a horse. The word Safe is over rated.
I'm not sure how a modern Boxer primer would work correctly in the balloon head cases. They might work some or even most of the time, but the anvil would not have a surface for the legs to engage. It is very possible you would get misfires. Look at the pictures of the balloon head case pocket above and compare them to the illustrations below.
(http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Bullets/BoxerPrimer.png)
(http://i627.photobucket.com/albums/tt358/Mako_CAS/Bullets/pocket.png)
John and those of you that have sectioned these cases with the primers, what do the legs on the anvils set against?
Regards,
Mako
Mako,
UMC was the only company that turned the bottom of the primer pocket back at a slight angle. That was done so that reloaders could only use UMC brand primers for reloading.
Other case manuufacturers used a flat bottomed primer pocket like the cases today. Envision the UMC case with the bottom of the primer pocket flat. That's the way WInchester, Peters, US Cartridge Co and Rem-Umc balloon head cases were.
w44wcf
Quote from: w44wcf on December 28, 2011, 09:28:05 PM
Mako,
UMC was the only company that turned the bottom of the primer pocket back at a slight angle. That was done so that reloaders could only use UMC brand primers for reloading.
Other case manuufacturers used a flat bottomed primer pocket like the cases today. Envision the UMC case with the bottom of the primer pocket flat. That's the way WInchester, Peters, US Cartridge Co and Rem-Umc balloon head cases were.
w44wcf
w44wcf,
Well that makes more sense, I had never noticed the UMC pockets. I have seen sectioned balloon head cases before but never that pocket shape. It's obvious that a standard boxer won't work.
Thanks for the answer!
~Mako
Quote from: Mako on December 28, 2011, 09:51:45 PM
w44wcf,
Well that makes more sense, I had never noticed the UMC pockets. I have seen sectioned balloon head cases before but never that pocket shape. It's obvious that a standard boxer won't work.
Thanks for the answer!
~Mako
Mako, can you draw up some brass of different brands like UMC, REM-UMC etc like you did with that primer? Thats some cool looking stuff!
Quote from: Savvy Jack on December 28, 2011, 10:56:55 PM
Mako, can you draw up some brass of different brands like UMC, REM-UMC etc like you did with that primer? Thats some cool looking stuff!
Sure, someone get me the cross sections and I can make them. w44wcf has been sending me some great stuff on .44 Henry and .44 Colt. I can make a UMC .44WCF case now from that photo. If John or someone has a section of a UMC primer or even a shot looking into it (preferably and unfired primer) I can illustrate a UMC case and primer.
The case shown is a Starline .44Colt case and Winchester Primer.
Regards,
Mako
Not trying to get far from the BP topic but I dissected this this morning. Old/Unused Western Solid Base case, rounded head box primer, and a copper jacketed (looks melted formed) hollow base bullet with smokeless powder. At least 1960's or earlier if a reload.
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/DSCF2107.jpg)
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/DSCF2106.jpg)
Savvy,
Flip that primer over so we can see the anvil.
The bullet is plated. Lead bullets like that have been barrel plated for years. It died out on large caliber bullets for a while and you just saw it on .22 Rimfire ammo. Winchester tended (and tends) to use the copper plate on rimfire bullets, Remington and some others did the brass or "gilding metal" plating. Copper plating of large caliber lead bullets has made a comeback with air standards for indoor ranges getting more rigorous.
I used to have a sponsor that provided H&G truncated cone semi wadcutter style 200grain copper plated bullets which I really liked. They were clean when loading (which I really liked in the volumes I was loading and shooting) and the pistols remained "cleaner" without the lube. I just used a copper fouling remover every time I cleaned. But that was "smokiless" powder, I've never tried a copper plated bullet with Black Powder because you need the lube to keep the fouling soft, not prevent "leading."
I'm not sure what you mean by
Quote(looks melted formed)
The bullet is at least partially swaged (probably fully), see the ribbing on the bullet body? Those older bullets were plated to prevent leading. The copper acted as a lubricant. You'll note it doesn't have grease grooves. Does the bullet have a waxy coating in the area that was still in the case? Those ribbed areas are used to hold wax on the bullets.
Regards,
Mako
(http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f36/CurtissHawk/DSCF2111.jpg)
Yeah, the small crimp looking grooves had a tad bit of wax in them.
Jack,
Thank you for the pic.
Mako,
I found these two very nice pics of SHBP (Solid Head Button Pocket) cases on the internet......
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/UMCselflubricating32SW.jpg)
(http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/Collector%20Cartridges/45-70multiball.jpg)
w44wcf
Now I just gotta get some multi ball 45-70s!! ;D
Quote from: Savvy Jack on December 29, 2011, 07:47:58 PM
Now I just gotta get some multi ball 45-70s!! ;D
They look mean! Didn't the Army have a "garrison" or "guard" round made like that back in the 1870s/80s/90s? It's not a new concept, by any means.
Who is Paul Smith, anyway? The maker? Photographer? Inventor? All the beside? ;)
I'll add to w44wcf's thank you Savvy...
And w44wcf thank you for those sections. You can see how they had to use a primer without that "flat" on the leg to let the primer pocket to hold it with the UMC case. I'll sketch up what I think it looks like and you can tell me if it's correct.
Thanks guys,
Mako
Most of the bad press as pertains to Black Powder being corrosive had to do with the primers. Winchester was a real culprit in that they loaded their proprietary smokeless stuff with "Staynless" primers that they didn't offer to hand loaders. The only powder available to hand loaders at that time was black powder. Thus, the corrosive primers stayed with the black powder and the smokeless ammo got the non corrosive primers. Wallah! Black Powder was seen to be corrosive and smokeless was not. But, by and large, it was the primers that were the problem. Not the powder.
DD-MDA
Regarding primers.......
Early Winchester catalogs indicate that up until about 1916, for
black powder cartridges, they used No.'s 1, 1 1/2, 2 & 2 1/2 primers, depending on the cartridge.
Smokeless cartridges used No.'s 1W, 1 1/2W, 2W & 2 1/2W. The primer face had a "W" impressed to let the user know that the cartridges were loaded with smokeless powder.
Both types were mercuric, the W primers being 'hotter" to ignite smokeless powder. Mercuric primers were hard on brass, not so much on barrels.
After 1916, only the "W" primers remained and were used in both B.P. and Smokeless cartridges.
In the early 1920's, the mercury in primers was replaced by a "non-fulminate" compound containing potassium chlorate which was corrosive and if one did not properly clean barrels after ammunition fired with these primers, the barrels would be ruined in short order.
In 1925, Remington introduced their "Kleanbore" priming whch was non mercuric and non corrosive. Winchester followed 4 years later with their "Staynless" primers.
w44wcf
Balloon head case post deleted by DD
Also a big difference in those old style .45 Colt cases from the 50's is they have a different tiny rim with out the extractor groove and will not fit in a modern shell holder. At least not on my Dillon 550. I still have some of those cases but I don't care to risk problems loading them.
I have several factory boxes of Dominion 44-40 balloon headed cases, and a few boxes of loaded factory ammo in 44-40 and .455 Colt loaded ammo and brass.
I shoot the .455 sparingly, and they seem to be lasting well. I've yet to reload any of the 44-40 cases, but I have fired some of the factory 44-40 200 gr RNFP and it is accurate in my '66.
I've been present when a fellow CAS shooter was shooting some old Dominion balloon headed .45 Colt brass with BP and he suffered a case separation in his rifle. Net result - he got a face full of gas. This was pretty old and tired brass.