I have a question. Is it leagal to "hip shoot" a shotgun...as in not shouldering it? My shotgun "Mule" beats my shoulder to hamburger every time I use it. I snug it in tight, but I still end up with a big bruise that runs almost to my elbow. I've seen pictures of guys, CAS shooters, hip shooting shotguns and I'm wondering if this is legal? If anyone has the knowledge on this...lemme know.
Everyplace I have shot it is. Some worry about putting shots over the burm but with a shotgun that is less of a concern. It is pretty easy to get good at shooting the shotgun from the hip. Many have had shoulder surgery and are unable at least for a time to shoot from the shoulder.
I am wondering what type of loads you are shooting that are beating you so bad? Have you tried the Winchester low recoil loads sometimes called feather lites?
What type of shotgun are you shooting? you might consider putting a recoil reducer in the butt stock. It makes a big difference.
Will Ketchum
My scattergun is a Baikal Russian made "Coachgun" called the "Bounty Hunter". 12 ga, 20 inch barrels, visable, but non working hammers and dual triggers. The ammo I was using on my first shoot was hunting ammo, not target. I didn't know what to get when I got it, so I just got three boxes of shells. I know shotguns kick, but mine really packs a wallop!
Someone told me to take the butt plate off and if there was a hole in the shoulder stock I should fill that with shot and that would take some of the wallop out of it. There was and I did. I filled it with steel BB's. I don't know if filling that hole with shot will "de-wallop" it, or not? I am considering getting one of those slip on rubber recoil pads and I also have a shoulder recoil pad that I can wear under my shirt.
All I know is I gotta tame that scattergun down!
How much shot was in the shells and what was the drahm eqv.? Try something with one oz and not more than 2 3/4 to 3 drahm eqv. Lead #9 will do a lot more that the steel BB's. One thing also, that short a barrels reduces weight some and also increases muzzle flip. Some time just for fun see if someone will let you try one with about 26 to 28 inches of barrel, bet it will make a big differance since it seems like you don't have a real tough shoulder. (Don't let that concern you, seen many a macho type fool themselves tryin' to shoot more gun than their body will allow, myself, no proplem from the shoulder, but in hand, I got problems)
If that don't help, stop by sometime I think I got some 3 1/2 inch #4 buckshot and a single-shot 10 gauge, a session with that will make yers seem tame. :o ;)
AK, Del speaks the truth. When you look at the box, there should be either a dram equiv. or if they're following the newer specs a speed listed. Get ones marked 2 3/4 dram or less if marked in dram equiv. or around 1145 or less if marked as speed. Shot load of 1 oz. or 7/8ths. The AA low recoil/low noise are marked, I believe as min. dram equiv. and the shot load is marked as 26 grams. The part number for them is AA12FL8. A coach type gun is somewhat lighter than a longer barreled one, except for the TTN 1878's and I believe the Chinese '99's. Also remember to tuck that scatter gun up tight and lean into it. If you leave it loose on the shoulder or have some space there it'll thump you worse. For the recoil shy, those AA's are the way to go, or if you roll your own keep the LUP down around 6,000 to 6,500. In speed, between 1045 to 1145fps. Put lead in that stock, steel is lighter than lead. My single shot rifle is lighter than it should be for the caliber, so I put some 38-55 bullets in the stock to weigh it down some more. Hope this helps you some..............Buck 8) :o ;D
I have heard bad things about putting shot in the butt for extra weight. If I remember right it has something to with it's corroding and then causing swelling which can spilt the stock. I would get one of the Mercury suppressors Or at least out the shot into something to keep it from corroding.
Even the lighter field loads can give you a battering over 6 stages or so.. Try those low recoil trap loads mentioned above.
Will Ketchum
Heck I ain't shot a 12 in so many years I ferget they now have 7/8 oz loads. For light recoil in 1 oz loads I always like PB by DuPont (now IMR) Some really nice lab tested 1 oz, for 1 1/8 oz IMR 7625 was always great. Both powders are somewhat negleted by todays reloaders who want the gun cleaner when done than when they started. They often take a little more powder and are a little dirtier burnin' than the newer powders, but if I still shot 12 gauge both these and IMR 4756 would be in the loadin' room.
I just emptied the shot I placed in the stock of my scattergun and weighed it. It came to just a shade over 4 ounces. I used standard steel BB gun BB's. I don't understand how 4 ounces could effect the recoil of that gun in any way ??? I'm gonna go the "cheap route" with this. I'll get a rubber, slip on, recoil pad for the butt stock and I now have a shoulder worn recoil pad that I can wear under my shirt and it won't be seen.
I'm also gonna start hip shootin' as long as the clubs up in this area say it's ok. I may miss a few targets...but....I'll still have fun slingin' lead!
I agree with Will. One of those suppressors should work wonders.
Quote from: Marshal Will Wingam on January 02, 2005, 07:03:58 PM
I agree with Will. One of those suppressors should work wonders.
I think I'll take Mule down to the gun shop tomorrow and check into getting one of those attached. It might cost a couple of bucks, but if it takes the wallop out if it....thass good!
A-Rap-Aho, I got to say that I think that Baikal is a thumper in and of itself. I have one, and I've only used it a few times, because it hits much harder than either my Rossi - my usual match shootgun - or my '97. I ain't recoil sensitive - aware, yes, but not sensitive, and I just don't care that much for it. That said, all of the things you have been told could help. Lots of folks swear by those mercury recoil reducers, and a "magnum" Past Recoil Shield fastened inside of your shirt will definitely take some of the sting out of the gun; I use one when I'm bench shooting. Also, as we get older, we tend to bruise easier than when we were youngsters; I often do, now, where I never used to. >:(
You ain't just a whistlin' Dixie there , brother. I bruise a heck of a lot easier than I used to.......Buck 8) ::) ;D
On note on the lead shot in the stock. It is never meant to just add weight, but it is a poor mans version of the mercury surpressor that dates way back. You use #8 or #9 shot and leave enough room for it to move, it then trys to stay in place when the gun recoils. It the hits the stock and absorbs some of the recoil, just like the mercury does. About 3/4 to 7/8 full is right. Did this on my H&R single shot 10 gauge I used to use a lot. A couple of boxes of 2 1/4 oz lead or 54 #4 Buckshot pellets, will batter the shot so bad ya can't get it back in when you tear the gun down for maintance.
If you have never fired a #4 Buckshot with 54, 0.24 pellets out of a 9 1/2 pound 10 gauge you are missing a ride better that any at Disney world. It is right on that ragged edge of not really being a lot of fun. ;D ;D :o ;)
(PS if yer wonderin' the #4 Buck was not used for sky bustin' geese, there were problems it was used to solve and it did quite nice on feral dogs that thought they owned our place.)
I measured the depth of the hole in the butt stock. It's exactly 4 and a quarter inches deep. Next I measured a full load of BB's in it. That came to just a shade over 4 ounces. So I had no way to measure how many BB's were in an inch after being put in the hole, I did it by weight. I tossed in three ounces of standard BB gun BB's. There is about an inch from the top of the BB's to the end of the hole. they will rattle around in there. Is this what I wanted to accomplish?
Try it and see, fine lead shot will do a better job, steel BB's don't take up as much space, weigh less and bonce. It's dead weight that works with either this or the mercury supressor.
Hey Kid, did you check the length of pull? If you add a pad, it will increase and you may need to cut the stock down some.
The other pards are right, the short barrels make for nasty recoil.
How much do you love that shotgun? If it ain't a lot, start lookin' around for one that suits you better. Only shotgun I ever sold was that nasty Russkie coach gun. Beat me to death no matter what I tried. Shotguns are personal. Some of them just ain't a match for proper fit without major expense for modification. On the new Russkie coach guns, it ain't usually worth it to go to that kind of expense. Just trade/sell and find another shotgun that works better for you.
Lou: Plan A is...I will try BP shot shells, or Winchester AA Featherlights and a rubber slip on recoil pad and that recoil pad I wear under my shirt. If that doesn't work, then I go to Plan B and that is getting one of those murcury recoil reducers installed in the gun. If Plan B doesn't work I go to Plan C and that is getting another scattergun. I'm open for suggestions on Plan C!
I have a Baikal and I love it, went through 2 Stogers and give up on them. The length of pull on the Baikal was a little short so I added a pachmier recoil pad and I don't even notice the recoil when I shoot it, course all I shoot are trap/skeet loads, usually 7/8oz #7 1/2.
To really get the effect you want from that home-grown supressor, use LEAD shot instead of steel B-Bs. Makes a difference!
Advise taken and understood on lead shot as opposed to steel BB's. So then what size shot should I use? 8? 9?....smaller...bigger??
What size shot do you have?
Cut open a couple of those rounds that you bought and use what you have.
Why make it complicated?
It's done! 6 1/2 ounces of #8 shot in the butt stock. The hole is not totally full. I left about an inch for movement. I don't understand how this tiny bit of weight can effect the recoil, or is it the movement of the shot in the hole that effects it?
Bear with me guys! I'm far from being an expert on this technical stuff. Someone asked me if I had a choke on my shotgun. I don't even know what a choke is, or it's purpose, or do want, or not want one? Up until I came into CAS...all I knew about guns was...you put bullets in them and they make a noise when you pull the trigger! I didn't know squat about the technical end of them....but I'm learning now!
Kid, the choke is the amount of restriction in the business end of the barrel on a shotgun. Choke controls the pattern tightness and distance of effectiveness of the shot load. On your Baikal, you might have screw in chokes, or maybe not. Break the gun down - take the barrels off of the frame, (a safety measure, for sure) and look at the muzzles. If there is a sleeve sort of device in there with two slots in it, that is a removable choke. If this is the case, you should have gotten a choke removal tool with your gun , and perhaps an extra choke tube, as well. The tool is just a flat piece of steel about one eighth of an inch thick, shaped in a T. It fits into the slots in the choke tube, and they can be unscrewed from the barrels. The tubes are marked - IC for improved cylinder, M for modified, F for full. The amount of restriction is designated by those letters: full choke is the tightest, then modified, improved, and finally cylinder(designated C), which is a straight tube with no restriction. Most doubles with fixed chokes, are M - IC, which are good all around chokes for short range use. There is much more to it, but this is the nuts of it, basically. As an aside, when you go to the next shoot, ask somebody there if they can help you sort this mess out; one of the more experienced shooters should be able to help you out.
Kid, reducing to load, increasing gun weight and a good recoil pad will all help. 1 ounce loads, loaded ti minimum velocity recoil far less than 1 1/8 ounce loads. Y ou can even load 7/8 ounce in a 12 gauge though I don't know whether they will knock down targets or not-they have almost no recoil if loaded to minimum velocity.
You'r right. Not likely that 4 ounces of weight is gonna help much. I second the suggestion for a Mercury Recoil unit in the buttstock.
A really good buttpad will h elp immensely. I use a Pachymr decelerator on my skeet and trap guns and they work great. I have seen posted that there are now pads out that are better, but i have no experience with them.
Careful when shooting from the h ip that you get a real firm grip on on the wrist of the stock to prevent getting the web of your hand split under recoil by the top lever.
With a little practice you can hit sass targets from the hip as well as from the shoulder.
7/8 oz took down all the KDs at Mason Dixon Stampede the last two years.
Tensleep, thanks for the info. They break skeet targets also. the pattern appears to be a mite scarcer than 1 oz, but they still break the targets which is good enough-and the recoil is LIGHT.
I've killed a few hundred pheasants with 7/8 oz in a skeet choked 28 gauge out to about 40 yards and never felt under gunned. Folks tell me them things is hard ta kill, never seem to have noticed. Course 7/8 oz in a 5 1/4 pound gun has a bit of recoil. ;D ;D Bet it would take a nasty knockdown to stop it. :)
The 7/8ths I'm putting together for the wife and I don't seem to have any problems locally with the KD's we've encountered..............Buck 8) ;D
Quote from: El Peludo on January 03, 2005, 08:13:56 PM
Kid, the choke is the amount of restriction in the business end of the barrel on a shotgun. Choke controls the pattern tightness and distance of effectiveness of the shot load. On your Baikal, you might have screw in chokes, or maybe not. Break the gun down - take the barrels off of the frame, (a safety measure, for sure) and look at the muzzles. If there is a sleeve sort of device in there with two slots in it, that is a removable choke. If this is the case, you should have gotten a choke removal tool with your gun , and perhaps an extra choke tube, as well. The tool is just a flat piece of steel about one eighth of an inch thick, shaped in a T. It fits into the slots in the choke tube, and they can be unscrewed from the barrels. The tubes are marked - IC for improved cylinder, M for modified, F for full. The amount of restriction is designated by those letters: full choke is the tightest, then modified, improved, and finally cylinder(designated C), which is a straight tube with no restriction. Most doubles with fixed chokes, are M - IC, which are good all around chokes for short range use. There is much more to it, but this is the nuts of it, basically. As an aside, when you go to the next shoot, ask somebody there if they can help you sort this mess out; one of the more experienced shooters should be able to help you out.
I checked my scattergun. The barrels are smooth from the chambers to the front end. No choke.
That means it has the choke incorporated into the taper of the barrel. If you have owners manual, see if the choke tapers are listed. i know most of the Stoegers are left mod. and right IC. my 1878 TTN says it's choked Cyl., but actually it's somewhat tighter. smith's usually have gauges that can measure what the choke taper is. Hope I didn't confuse you........Buck 8) ;D
If you go changing shotguns, here's a little input. I ordered two Stoeger Uplander supremes, one for me and one for my wife. One came in and I tried it out. It shot both barrels most of the time. I reworked the action, but only got it to work right about 90% of the time. That means that tvery tenth shot it fired both barrels when I pulled the trigger. I cancelled the order for the other one. That one went into the safe until I could figure out what to do about it. Then I ordered two Stoeger coach guns. Neither one shot straight. On both guns the right barrel hit about 4 inches to the right and the left barrel hit 6 inches high and 6 inches to the left at about 15 feet. I sent them back to Stoeger to get fixed. After a couple months Stoeger replaced both guns. One, my wife's replacement, shot just fine. The other one was off exactly the same as the other two. I sold that lemon and went back to the Uplander. My cousin and I shot the hell out of it one day. I'd shoot a box of shells as fast as I could and hand it to him. He would do the same thing and hand it back. It got so hot we needed a glove on the left hand to handle it. After it cooled, it stopped shooting both barrels at the same time. Mostly. It still bangs off both about once every six months, but at least it hits where it should, unlike the other ones. Would I order another Stoeger? I don't think so.
We have a Stoeger Uplander, 26" barrels in 20ga.
With AA Featherlights it will still jolt the #$%@ outta ya.
It shoots straight but it kicks more than my 20" Jing 12ga hammered double.
AK check the muzzle with a dime to see if the dime will slide in the barrel, if it don't that thing is full choked.
The Stoeger we have has the barels marked on the underside.
Left is M and right is IC.
That damned 20ga stays in the safe now.
Quote from: Tensleep on January 04, 2005, 07:04:34 AM
We have a Stoeger Uplander, 26" barrels in 20ga.
With AA Featherlights it will still jolt the #$%@ outta ya.
It shoots straight but it kicks more than my 20" Jing 12ga hammered double.
AK check the muzzle with a dime to see if the dime will slide in the barrel, if it don't that thing is full choked.
The Stoeger we have has the barels marked on the underside.
Left is M and right is IC.
That damned 20ga stays in the safe now.
Sleep: Did a check on my scattergun. No Chokes.
Kid, What kind of recoil shield have you got fer yer shoulder? The best I know of is the PAST shield! A freind of mine had that nasty rotator cup surgery on her shoulder last year and I recommended it to her. She swears by it now!!!!!
Yes, adding a few oz to the gun will make a major difference, even though it seems like it ain't much weight, it has disproportionant affect. Other things to check into are stock fit. If that stock is wrong fer ya, nuthin will make it feel good! Go to a good smith who understands scattergunning and have him check you & the gun for proper fit....making sure he understands that you are shooting CAS, not trap. (makes a difference because you hold the gun different for shooting ground targets) The slip on recoil pads are pretty good too. I have one on my scattergun, because it didn't fit me right without it. I covered it with a soft leather wrap that actually looks period correct. But they make them now with a leather cover already part of them. (don't look right to me, but they work)
And if all else fails you might try going to black powder loads in the scatter gun! BP recoil is different than smokeles, spread out over a longer time period. Yeha, I know...they SOUND like cannons goings off, but a light BP load is easier on the shoulder than the lightest smokeless load. And they LOOK COOL! 8)
Good luck with it pard! No one should be bringing bruises home from a CAS match!
Cuts: My shoulder worn recoil pad is a canvas/leather device and contains a pad of high density foam rubber that is about a half inch thick. I don't remember where I got it...on the net somewhere? I am also going to get one of those slip on rubber recoil pads to add to the butt stock of my scattergun. I have added several ounces of #8 shot into the butt stock and I have a couple boxes of BP shot shells, so I think I can control the recoil to a certain degree now. If this doesn't tame that reoil I'll look into getting one of those mercury recoil supressors installed. I don't want to have to get another scattergun. If all these efforts fail...I'll start hip shootin'
The two Stoegers we have are both Uplanders, one has 26" tubes and the other has 28" tubes. The 26 is choked left mod., right IC.. The 28 is choked right Mod., left full. Both have been pretty reliable, no doublin'. The 26 has been fitted for Susie, almost three inches off the stock and a Kick-ezz recoil pad installed. It isn't too good for me to shoot as my thumb is just about up my nose when I hold it! both of them have their barrels regulated pretty well. I've shot some trap with the 28. 10Zzzz mentioned a Jing, if it's anything like the one I held at a gun show, it does have some heft to it for a coach gun. The same goes for my 1878 TTN, it feels a lot heavier than my 28 Stoeger. I don't know if the Baikal's have long forcing cones or not, but that's something that could be done to somewhat help with the recoil. I know the TTN's have longer cones. If I get the chance, I'll check EAA's site and see if they list the choking on their fixed choke coach guns.......................Buck 8) ::) ;D
The Arapaho Kid
I had that same shotgun and that rascal beat around me like a high school bully. I tried all of the things suggested on this wire and nothing worked. I then traded it for a TTN 1878 Colt Replica and I have to admit it is a pleasure to shoot that TTN. There is basically zero recoil compared to that Bakail. The spent shells drop off with ease, best money I ever spent on a shotgun. The Bakail would rack the middle finger of my shooting hand and the swelling would just about go down, when it was time to shoot again. I dreaded that darned thing. It did look good, but not as good as a TTN with those overgrown hammers. Good Luck!