All right pards, I am no where near as an accomplished Leathersmith as many of those here on this thread, but I have been "tinkering" with leather for a couple of years, and make much of my own gear for CAS and for work (I am a full time cop and range master for my department).
I have made about 10-12 off duty holsters for various handguns for guys at work, and several for myself in the last year or so. I also make off duty magazine pouches and small items like cell phone holders for the guys at work. I have done all of my work by hand with a stiching pony and needle and thread (sometimes with an sewing awl).
I am looking to start making some bigger items, such as chaps (both cowboy and modern for my Harley addiction ;D). I make holsters (modern not cowboy-yet) often enough to consider the cost of a leather sewing machine to speed things up and reduce wear and tear on my hands/fingers.
I have no experience with sewing machines at all, leather or otherwise. I have been told that the Tippman "Boss" was a good quality leather sewing machine for someone who is doing the small quantity/project type work that I have been doing.
Any pards out there with experience using this machine (or another if an alternate is suggested)? If so, what do you like/dislike and is it worth the expense for someone like me?
Any information or comment is welcome.
Thanks in advance....
P.S. There are some SERIOUSLY talented pards out there that I have learned alot from, just from reading this thread. Please keep up the good work and the pictures! ;)
Lucky for us, there are a lot more choices available than 10 years ago. I have an Adler 205/370, which will put you back about $5,000. But there are alot of other machines available now. While the Tippman Boss makes a nice stitch, you have to hand crank it for each stitch. It cost $1,500 with no motor. You can get machines with a motor for that price. It is also nice to have both hands free while sewing! Be sure to get adjustable stitch length and reverse! I'm not "reping" these companies, just FYI.
Toldeo Ind. Machines. 1-866-362-7397 "Cowboy" model $895-$2895.
Artisan www.artisansew.com 1-888-838-1408 $1,500-$2,000
Weaver Leather 1-800-Weaver1 $2,000- $5,300
There's more out there, just a few of the more popular ones. Just don't waste your time and money on someone's "old harness stitcher", unless you are a mechanic and would rather work on machinery than sew leather. Just my $0.02 worth!
Thanks for the reply Mr. Carrico. I hadn't thought about a "Lectric Machine", mostly due to my inexperience with sewing machines, and the associated cost.
I like the looks of the "Artisan" 3000, but I doubt that I can afford it right now.
Anyone else out there got a comment/suggestion?
Howdy Marshal Tac
I sew by hand , and I don't have any experence with sewing machines, but a fella was telling me the other day , that he started useing a machine becauise his hands were bothering him , he said he got a heck of a deal on a heavy duty sewing machine at Harbor Frieght, for $750.00, and it had a top and bottom foot, he said it sewed leather , and he showed with his fingers , which looked to be over 1/2",s thick , he said this machine sewed right through it with ease. So I don't know , but it might be worth looking at , he said some of there stores didn't carry them and you had to get them from the wharehouse, I not saying there good or bad, don't know , but he sure liked it. Hope this was a little help.
tEN wOLVES ;) :D ;D
I still sew by hand but only because I don't have enough work to justify a good machine. I have heard that the Ferdco is a good one, though, and would look into one of those if I was getting ready to buy.
Ferdco.com (http://www.ferdco.com/index.php)
Let's get a few more links in here to good manufacturers and I can put a link to this in our FAQ/Supplier thread so others can get here readily in the future. OK, who's using what machine and why?
Marshal Tac:
Like yourself I started making off duty holsters when I was a LEO (many years ago) ;D About four years ago I purchased a Tippman Boss, and after about two weeks of trying to figure out the proper adjustments I finally got it to work. The Tippman is fine for just doing minor repairs as it is a hand operated machine and requires one hand to operate it .. not very efficient About a year ago I bit the bullit and purchased A Ferdco Pro-2000 with the saddle attachment kit...it ran me just under $7,000.00 including the shipping costs. ($400.00). Again a learning curve, but let me say that once you learn it you will use it all the time. The Adler 205, like Dave Carrico has is also a great machine...Since the purchase of the Pro-2000 I have not used the Tippman hardly at all and I am considering just taking it off the bench and putting it away as a spare. The Tippman with all the accessories will run you close to $2,200.00. Call Ron at Ferdco (ferdco.com) and ask about any used machines they may have. I have attached a picture of the Ferdco. ANother thing is that the Tippman only has an 8" throat which is not good when you have to turn your work. The Ferdco on the other hand has a 16" throat..I believe the Adler 205 has a 12" throat.
I very rarely do any hand stitching anymore.
WOW Marshal Will, and Outridder ::) :o 8)
I just checked out the Ferdco web site, I'm diffenitly, putting one of these sewing machines on my Down The Road, WISH list, now I can let my mind wander deeper and deeper, into leather craft, with all new possibilites, and things I might be able to do with a machine like this , Thanks for sharing , ;) :D ;D 8)
tEN wOLVES ;) :D ;D
Howdy All
I will always hand sew. I don't like the look of machine stitching and hand sewing is a stronger stitch, imho.
WC
Quote from: cowboywc on March 01, 2008, 09:11:42 PM... hand sewing is a stronger stitch, imho.
I definitely agree. With a double-needle stitch, you actually have two threads going the full distance of the stitch line. A hand cinched stitch will be tighter than a machine stitch. Not only that, but if one breaks the other one will still hold everything fast. The saddlemaker who taught me how to do most of my assembly had a beautiful Pfaff machine but when it came to things that really needed to hold, like a circingle where the performer's life depended on it holding, he used the machine to punch the holes then hand stitched the item. LOL, actually, he had
me stitch them.
LOL, machines! Heck I have 3 or 4 of em, and havent used one. I met a lady who used to run a leather shop in our town, and she had several machines still. She sold me an old Adler, which is my favorite of the bunch. The motor is gone, but it has a hand crank on the front. I have played with it a little, but still prefer my handstitching. I also have a Pfaff, and a Landis 12. The Landis 12 is some heavy duty machinework. Probably weighs 400 pounds, and has needles that look like they could rip off your arms. Have never played with that one yet. Should sell it before I lose appendages. :P :-\
Good luck! DM
Howdy Pards:
The Ferdco machine is basically a re-design of the Juki 441. The owner of Ferdco has several patents that were added to the basic design..If I am not mistaken in the beginning the Ferdco machine was called the "Ferdco Juki Pro-2000. If any of you have the John Bianchi DVD on making western holsters you will see that he uses one of the Juki Ferdco2000's..according to what he said in the DVD "it runs like a swiss watch". I was recenly informed by the owner at Ferdco that Bianchi has surpassed the $1,000,000.00 mark as far as invoiced holsters from that Ferdco machine. BIANCHI - retired...I hardly think so.
IMO the Artisan and the "Cowboy" are both just cheaper copies of the original Juki 441 and the Ferdco. Since I have never used either one (Cowboy or the Artisan) I am not giving an opinion on their merits or drawbacks.
I also like the way hand stitching looks and it is definately a stronger stitch...however I use the machine stitching because it saves me time. when you have alot of orders to get done and only so much time the machine is the way to go.
MT, the Artisan Toro is a great machine and you could do a lot worse. I have a very old Boss and a late model AeroStitch, one of the last ones they produced, and can get along with them. I use the Boss primarily for lighter needles and thread stitching while the Aero now gets very little use. I keep thinking the Aero might one day be an emergency backup to the Toro but eventually will probly make it an Ebay item. It lacks many of the refinements that can be found on most power machines and the factory instructions were really skimpy for first time machine users. It actually started performing better for me as I got familiar with the Toro and started applying that knowledge to the Aero.
My wife bought me my Toro after hearing me complain about tender fingers and confounded Tippmans for a long while. The transition from hand sewing was not an easy one and I still have trouble realising that with a machine you have to stay totally focused or the project is ruined in a heart beat. The answer to your dreams comes when you look at a size 50 belt that requires a full liner, 30 sewn cartridge loops and you promised it tomorrow!
There's good information in this thread so I added it to the list in the FAQ/supplier thread.
THANKS PARDS! This is EXACTLY the information I was looking for. It sounds like I might be working on saving some more money over a little longer time frame and going with a powered machine, if they are that much of an improvement over the hand operated Tippman.
When initially looking at them, I thought that the hand operated Boss would allow me a shollower learning curve and more control/precision, being that it was slower and hand operated vs. automatic.
My wife likes to sew clothing, and has a very nice standard sewing machine, so if I end up with a powered machine, I am sure she could help teach me how to use it, if it is at all similar to a standard machine.
I'd love to hear any more comments about one machine over the other. I want to meet my needs without either spending far more than I have to or ending up with a machine that is overly complicated and doesn't get used.
As for hand stiching..... I agree that a hand stich is stronger and adds the detail of hand-craftsmanship, but it is slow and limits the weight of leather that I can use in my projects due to my hand strength. (one holster using 10-12 oz. leather and my hands hurt for a week! :-[)
Between no machine and the BOSS, I'll take that there Boss eveytime. Used prices have gotten pretty low, if your willing to be patient and shop around. It is actually a heavy duty little machine with its good points and its shortcomings. A year or so back some were wanting to know if it would lend itself to being motorised. I would not think this would have been my recommendation but a foot pump connection could be the answer to most of its shortcomings in my mind. Lacking a better manual machine, I would replace my BOSS if it ever becomes necessary, and thats even though I have a good quality power machine.
There are reeeal cheep JUKI copies everywhere now, made who knows where by who knows who, but I know nothing about their quality. I have seen copies for well under $2000, watch Ebay under 'leather sewing machines'.
MT:
If I remember correctly the Ferdco Pro-2000 can sew with thread as small as #69, which is commonly used in upholstry, especially auto seat covers. I am not sure about the Adler or the Artisan..but they should be able to do the smaller size also.
Ferdco also makes a neat hand operated machine which is called the Pro6/6 (but can also be motorized if needed), and also a "Baby Bull" which has a smaller throat length.
I have an Adler 205-64 light harnes and saddle machine that I bought new in 1987. Way back then, I paid $3250.00 for it but the Adler reputation was as good as you could get and still is. In the past 20 years, I've run over 240 pounds of thread through this machine and it has never skipped a beat. I keep it clean, well olied and replace the needle once a week. The only other part I've ever replaced was the bobbin tension plate, which at the time was around $9.00. Even if I retired tomorrow, I'll never sell the machine.
Adios,
Buck
Howdy Buck:
I agree with you on the Adler 205. When I was looking at the different modles available I choose the Ferdinand because it had a 16" throat, which is what I was looking for...If I ever buy a second machine it will be an Adler 205
My 205 has a 13" throat which gives more than enough room for large items like saddle skirts, saddle pockets and pommel bags.
Adios,
Buck
Howdy Pards:
My biggest problem with the Tippman Boss, was trying to sew bullet loops onto a gunbelt...one hand trying to hold the loop and the belt in alignment while the other operated the machine...then when you rotated the belt ...oh boy.. try to get a 45" heavy belt to turn through a small 8"throat. After some trial and error making loops with the Ferdanand it is now very easy and fast..you can align and operate at the same time and turning is no chore at all. Would be the same for the Adler and the Artisan.
I have tiouched the Tippman is months...might as well just take it down off the bench...could use the room.
Howdy Pards:
Seems to be alot of Q&A about available sewing machines. Here is a link that will enlighten our knowledge somewhat. Marshal, you may want to add this to the FAQ section. It also includes some of the needle and awl machines like the Campbell, the Randall, Singer machines, and Union Lockstitch, etc.
www.a1sew.com/saddle.htm
Another good site is: campbell-bosworth.com All kinds of tools, stamps, supplies, etc.
Hope this helps
Good idea, Outrider. I merged this with the thread we already had going on sewing machines with a FAQ link to it. Thanks for the link. Good information.
Yer good, Pard.
I just went to ebay, and there are a few machines on there, at $100.00-$200.00, then they also got $999.00 and up!
I have no clue about them, but if the old old singer was close to me, i would go look at it!!
I hope this might help.
ACE
I have a Boss and an Artisan Toro 3000. Both are great. I started with the Boss and enjoyed it a lot. It made sewing projects that previously took about an hour now require just a few minutes. When my business increased a bit, and I came up with ideas for new products that were going to require a lot of stitching, I checked out Artisan after learning about them here. I can't begin to describe how enthusiastic and helpful, not to mention patient, Steve is. After a few weeks and a couple of question filled phone calls, I ordered the Toro 300. WOW! What a machine. It's everything I could have ever hoped for, and even a novice with no machine sewing experience like myself can get beautiful consistant results easily. For my liitle business, it was pricey. I added the flat work surface, and shipping alone of this heavy unit was $200., but for what you get I think it's very fairly priced ~~~ The servo-controlled motor allows accurate speed control, even at v e r y slow speeds, it can handle up to size #415 thread, adjustable pedestal design on heavy casters ~ I recommend highly ;D
I've had an Artisan Toro 3000 for the past 2 years. I use it in my custom gun leather business. It's a great machine and IMHO Artisan has the best customer service in the business. Prior to purchasing the Toro 3000, I was using a Tippmann Boss. After switching to the Toro 3000, I've never looked back.
Randy
I have now had the Toro for several months. I like it more and more every time I use it. I actually look forward to sewing on it. It has enabled me to add some new designs to my product line and has performed flawlessly. The people at Artisan I have spoken with are really helpful and friendly and excited about their machines.
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w49/otaypanky/DSCF0005-5.jpg)
(http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w49/otaypanky/DSCF0003-12.jpg)
Dang PA, that looks great!
I might have to get one of my machines up and running sometime, and make a lined belt.
DM
What a beautiful guitar strap, pard. Nice work. That machine is sure doing a fine job.
Wow that strap is georgous.
How long have you been doing leather work?
Johnny Dingus
I just picked this one up yesterday...it's a knock-off of a Singer K45....I haven't mastered it yet by a long stretch...it seems to have this run-away foot pedal...kinda has a mind of it's own.....when I can control it I'll be in bidness.
(http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb277/RGleather/IMG_0266.jpg)
Hey Bluesman, nice hearing from you.
I doubt that machine does your dying jobs. That's about as slick as I've ever seen for coloring. I don't know what you are doing to achieve that color and smoothness, but it sure looks great.
BTW I'm a big fan of blues guitarists. Besides the normal list, Clapton, Stevie Ray, etc, I love Warren Haynes, Walter Trout, and Buddy Whittington. Mick Taylor on slide, and of course the late great Duane Allman. Oh yeah, Derek Trucks is pretty good too.
I play, but not much other than acoustic worship leading these days. I do have three different electirc guys who rotate into our band week by week, all blues guys.
Thanks for sharing your work, it looks really great, JD
Well, quite by accident, I sold my old three digit BOSS last weekend. I had told a couple of shooting pards that came by the shop at least a year ago that I was considering selling my Tippmann Aero. Well they told an out of town shooter that I had one of the Boss machines fer sale!! Since he absolutely would not take the Aero I let him talk me out of my little BOSS but now that it has been gone almost a week I am still detouring around its space to get to the Toro.
For those who do not think the little BOSS can handle its rated limit, as a demo for the pard, I spot glued four thicknesses of old dried out 11oz leather together and sewed through all 44oz without a hitch. BothTippmanns whined and squalled in the aged scrap bin leather but kept feeding the 277 thread into the leather like champs. I will now hang on to the Aero for awhile but consider the fact that it is tied to a small air compressor to be a huge disadvantage when compared to the handiness of the BOSS. The BOSS was a good little machine fer what it was and I will miss it.
Tippman Boss on sale until the end of Nov for $1195.00. :D
Cowboy...
Please stay away from all hand operated machines, untill u like to spend some money on Dr. bills for sore hands...haha...but seriously....a Tippman is to expensive to be manual...and unfortunatly not well build anymore...Aluminum....the new Stitchers are expensive...so you need to find a good used one...please do NOT go to Creglist...go to a dealer and ask for a good used one...like an Adler 105-64...or a good Pfaff 145...there are much good ol Singers...but most of them Flat bed...look for 111s and for 211...some have reverse...some not...these are medium machines...not much for Holsters....Adler 105 is fine for Holsters but not walking foot...nice to have,,,Call Bob in Toledo...he is a Wiz in used machines...he will do u right!!! And yes, hand stitched will always be stronger and much more pretty!!!,,,,But hey, we all not getting younger either...haha
Oh....and log into leatherworker.net....tons of sewing machine guys and info!!!
Greetings
Jimbob
Alien,
Thanks for your input on the sewing machines....always like to hear different opinions...I am a little confused as to why you are commenting on a thread that was put on here over three years ago???
I have a chance to buy a Singer 153W103 for $275
I want to sew liners on gun belts and holsters. I will sew the ?? thick part of the holster ?? by hand.
Will this do the job? Is it a good price? It comes with a table and the motor has a speed reducer on it.
Is it a simple machine? My wife is a sewing expert, will any of her knowledge cross over to this machine?
What all is this machine good for?
Lots of questions....thanks for any answers you can provide.
dbrown,
First of all my advice is to go to the Singer website and do research on what that model machine was made for. If you plan on doing holster and belt linings this unit may not be strong enough. My medium weight machine has a 190 needle system as opposed to the standard 135 needle system. The needles are larger and will take thread sizes from 69 up to size 207 thread. The 135 needles are mcuh smaller and althoguh they will sew light suede they are not quite heavy enough to do say a pair of chaps or what your planning to do...linings. Again...do the research..don't get caught up in that rut it's "cheap" because you may end up buying something that will not do the job for you.
I looked up the 153w103. It is an open arm (cylinder arm) machine..but does not appear to have a reverse. If in fact it does not reverse you will have to turn your project 180 dgrees to lock the stitches at the end of the run. Otherwise it looks sturdy enoung to do your lining projects. See if you can do a test run on the unit...
Thanks for the insight. I think the test run is a great idea.
I have a Tippman Boss HS in the 36XX serial range, but end up doing most work by hand. The Boss seems to go out of adjustment every 10th stitch. There is the shallow throat, which as mentioned earlier, makes stitching loops on a heavy belt very difficult. :(
I have a Cobra 4 now and it does a wonderful job on loops but honestly I prefer woven loops over stitched ones for a shooting rig.
The woven stick out a little bit farther so it's easier to grab the cartridges on a reload. For an everyday wearing rig where you don't need to reload quickly the sewn loops may be better since they hold tighter to the belt.
With a good sewing machine you can probably stitch loops faster but even though woven loops take a little bit longer and more strap to build but I just think they work better for reloading situations. Others opinions may differ.
I think this guy is using your 153, and you can see the weight of materials he is working.
http://www.gezcater.co.uk/
I have an old Singer 29K patch machine that I have had since like 1985. (I have had several different over the years but I have always had one 29 series or another) I use it for some bootmaking operations and other things but not much for holsters.