Don't hold your breath waiting for Jamison 45-75 brass.
I just got off the phone with them about a half an hour ago (1:30 PM, Pacific time) and was informed that it would be 6 - 8 months before they get into production on it. They are completly backlogged with military production at this time.
I guess we will have to continue to make do with modified 348 cases (which seem to be working OK) or modified 50 caliber Sharps cases until near the end of next year.
HHW
I wonder if anyone has talked to Starline....they will make anything with a large enough order. I don't know how many 45-75's are out there though.
Buffalo Brothers is currently out of .45-60 cut down brass as well. I tried ordering some and got a back order notice, so I will try my hand at cutting down .45-70 brass myself.
If EVERY .45-75 shooter would contact Starline about producing brass they might hustle up. They could take away the market from Jamison and Bertram. I have, have you? ;)
Good idea. I contacted Starline this morning. We'll see what happens next.
HHW
I have spoken to them 3 times concerning .45-75 brass. Now that there are more of us shooters out there, they have indicated that it is a possibility.
I haven't got a 1876 yet, but will prob go with the 45-75 when I do. I will contact Starline myself today.
MD
Mine's gone ... here's the email address you want to use .... Robert Hayden (rhayden@starlinebrass.com)
Robert is the owner's son and he is in charge of Sales and Production
John B., thanks for the email posted.
One more voice is in to Starline requesting consideration on the 45-75 case/brass.
Let us hope they come across for us.
MD
Well I just put in my two cents worth to Starline also. Even though I got quite a bit of brass that I have made I can always use more! ;)
::) Hobie: I sent an e-mail to a Robert Hayden this morning about the availability of 45-75 brass and he answered me right away and said that is one of the next cartridges that they are going to produce and even though he does not have a timeline yet they are shooting for the 2nd quarter of next year but nothing firm. So-- I figured I better pass this on. I got lots of 45-75 brass but am greedy so will want some also. Told him to keep me on his e-mail list and advise when they are ready. Hope this little tidbit of info helps.
Quote from: larryo_1 on December 07, 2007, 02:40:12 PM
::) Hobie: I sent an e-mail to a Robert Hayden this morning about the availability of 45-75 brass and he answered me right away and said that is one of the next cartridges that they are going to produce and even though he does not have a timeline yet they are shooting for the 2nd quarter of next year but nothing firm. So-- I figured I better pass this on. I got lots of 45-75 brass but am greedy so will want some also. Told him to keep me on his e-mail list and advise when they are ready. Hope this little tidbit of info helps.
Thanks, I'll have to get some too just to have. I've bought the .50 AK and .38-55 long and this will just be another. Besides, when you use the gun as a truck gun you're bound to lose cases... ;)
It has been suggested that we give Starline a consensus on the case dimensions as they might use the .50 Alaskan/.348 Win case head dia. The 1918 drawing show .562-.564" and that seems to work with no problem in my gun. Frankly I think it is a given that the Winchester drawing be used as the standard. What say you all?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/TheRealHobie/Firearms/Winchester1876/WRC45-75Jan1918.jpg) (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/TheRealHobie/Firearms/Winchester1876/WRC45-75Jan1918.jpg)
;) Hobie, I agree with you. If they stick to the original specs we can't loose.
Now herein lies a problem with sticking with original Winchester case head dimensions. The Lee dies that most people seem to be using are not made for a case head this big in diameter. I was resizing 50-90 cases with a head diameter of 0.563" and split a Lee full length resizing die. When sent back to Lee explaining the problem (they replaced the die at no charge) they came back with the following information.
To paraphrase Lee's answer, their dies are made with a base diameter of 0.552" - 0.555" @ 0.100" deep. They say that they designed the die base based on dimensions supplied to them by Jamison.
Now, I don't know from what source other die manufacturers are sizing their dies from, but before we start advising Starline on what their case dimensions should be, someone with other manufactures die sets besides Lee needs to take some measurements on the die base inside diameters and see what we should suggesting.
Present die sets run anywhere from around $35.00 to $250.00. I for one do not want to spend $250.00 for a set of dies when perfectly good dies can be had at a much lower price.
Something to think about before we go making recommendations that may end up being a problem.
HHW
I pulled this info off of the Chaparral site. It's under the , "Technical Specs" tab on the home page. Everything is metric in the drawing but the head and rim thikness match the original Winchestes 1912 drawing. You'd think that this is what they are cutting. thier chambers for.
Here's a link; http://www.chaparralarms.com/index.htm
45-75
Head diameter .627
Rim thickness .062
Case lenght 1.88
Overall cartridge lenght 2.25
(http://)(http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc158/rickga/4575.jpg)
p.s. I e-mailed Chaparral on Tuseday the 3rd asking for a U.S. source for their brass or if I could order directly from them and the price. No responce yet. Called Charter Arms to see if they emported any. They said no and refe. me to their ammo supplier who told me their only source was Ten-X.
Quote from: Hobie on December 08, 2007, 07:31:49 AM
It has been suggested that we give Starline a consensus on the case dimensions as they might use the .50 Alaskan/.348 Win case head dia. The 1918 drawing show .562-.564" and that seems to work with no problem in my gun. Frankly I think it is a given that the Winchester drawing be used as the standard. What say you all?
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/TheRealHobie/Firearms/Winchester1876/WRC45-75Jan1918.jpg) (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/TheRealHobie/Firearms/Winchester1876/WRC45-75Jan1918.jpg)
I believe there is a small error in that diagram. The diameter at the base of the neck of the cartridge is shown to be (.581 .5832"). I believe this should be (.481 .4832"). If I am reading the diagram correctly, the dimension as shown would make the neck bigger than is possible.
Icebox Bob
p.s. I have this diagram printed off to small poster size and pinned to the wall for inspiration.....
I'll go over the drawing again. ;)
As to the Lee dies. Mine sized the Bertram brass perfectly (except for the slightly set back shoulder) and that brass measures .562" just forward of the rim... In fact, for another correspondent, I measured all the case heads on my fired brass both pre and post full-length sizing. All is undersized but for the Bertram (according to the drawing) and that dimension was NOT changed.
Does Lee have their act together on this die set? I don't think so. Aren't they still shipping with an unusable shell holder?
Hobie,
I'll agree with you, Lee does some strange things from time to time. As for their shell holders, they make good fishing weights.
Have you measured the head diameter on the Jamison brass? I have never seen any of the run that they made and would be interested in just what dimension they came up with for their production.
Thanks.
HHW
I haven't been able to get any Jamison brass. :(
I have a bunch of Jamison 45-75 (no it's not for sale) and I can get you whatever specs you need. It has all been fired but the rim should average out (I can take multiple measurements).
I had serious headspace problems in my Crap 76 so I installed a set of Winchester Bob's links and set the headspace using the Jamison case to minimum. The .348 "parent" that everyone is using has a much thicker rim.
I believe we should not propogate this error (just My opinion). Have Starline get as close to possible as original. By that I mean rim thickness and diameter. I realize they won't do the tapered rim (will have to be flat). By the way that "tapered" rim cures a lot of the feeding/firing errors that I have seen in these rifles ;)
HH,
What I am interested in is the case head diameter just above the rim or just above the extractor groove if the Jamison brass has an extractor groove. Being I have never seen any of the Jamison brass I don't know if it has an extractor groove or not.
Thanks.
HHW
HMMM, Seems to be alot of questions as to the proper case dimensions. Now it would be great to have the cases made to the original specs. My question, would they be correct for these replicas? Is the chamber dimensions the same for both Uberi and Chap?I wonder which die set Uberti recommends. Anyone do a cerrosafe cast of the chamber to see it's dimensions?
As I've mentioned, I had Gad make up some 45-75 from .348 Win cases and what I got doesn't look anything like these drawings. I'm not sure what I should do. Will running them through the die set give me the correct dimensions? Or load and firing them to expand them to the chamber. Help!
Carver
I've got some of the GAD ammo coming to me so haven't seen that but the former owner had no problems with it.
I would think we would want to, as early as possible in the process, standardize on the standard that works and not some hodge podge derived from from some odd-ball transcription error or somesuch. It is my understanding that the 1918 drawing has been the standard for several in the industry.
Quote from: CarverTripp on December 08, 2007, 03:16:41 PM
HMMM, Seems to be alot of questions as to the proper case dimensions. Now it would be great to have the cases made to the original specs. My question, would they be correct for these replicas? Is the chamber dimensions the same for both Uberi and Chap?I wonder which die set Uberti recommends. Anyone do a cerrosafe cast of the chamber to see it's dimensions?
As I've mentioned, I had Gad make up some 45-75 from .348 Win cases and what I got doesn't look anything like these drawings. I'm not sure what I should do. Will running them through the die set give me the correct dimensions? Or load and firing them to expand them to the chamber. Help!
Carver
Carver
I know we all have investments here, and feelings! But the problems we are experiencing are due to the fact that the manufacturers are not buiding the rifle to anything that resembles specs (like saami). Asking the case manufacturers to fit these ill conceived chambers is kinda "cart before the horse" :'(
Chamber casts will be all over the board. I bought test brass from Chapparal and the discrepancies were HUGE! Meaning the reamers were changed often and many time the barrels were reamed very deeply (tapered case = bigger base).
I'll go outside and put the mic to it right now ;)
Back in a minute with postings.
I'll do a Cerrosafe cast of my chamber as well. I really need one just for reference anyway!
Great replies guys, I look forward to the dimension info! I wish I could get at my 76 and check these things out but I can't it's under the tree, in a box with a bow on it :'( :)
Carver
OK
At the base (right up next to the rim) 0.5475. Seems to be very unifrom no matter how many jamison cases I check.
Rim thickness is 0.060 (varies from .058 to .062) measured with a dial caliper, but this is not the best way to measure.
OAL 1.885
Neck thickness 0.010
Neck OD 0.475
This is not scientific by any means...........
I will try to attach a scan of some chamber differnces in fired brass.
Perhaps this thread could be moved into the 1876 board = http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,15915.0.html
Just a thought
Icebox
Quote from: Icebox Bob on December 08, 2007, 06:01:49 PM
Perhaps this thread could be moved into the 1876 board = http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,15915.0.html
Just a thought
Icebox
Am I lost? :-\
Somebody please call my daddy to pick me up ;D
Quote from: Icebox Bob on December 08, 2007, 06:01:49 PM
Perhaps this thread could be moved into the 1876 board = http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,15915.0.html
Just a thought
Icebox
That's where I found the topic... ???
I think we're here already, aren't we???? :o
Gents: Here's the case specifications that Chaparral is making their brass to ... whenever it arrives in the US
(http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Misc/WRC45-75Jan1918.jpg)
Rim Thickness - .057 to .062
Rim Diameter - .620 to .629
And here's some other rim thickness and rim diameters that are being sold in the US:
Rim Thickness Rim Diameter
Jamison/TenX 0.057 0.613
Buffalo Arms 0.057 0.605
348 Resized 0.062 0.602
Original 1878 WRC 0.056 0.621
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on December 08, 2007, 06:21:40 PM
Am I lost? :-\
Somebody please call my daddy to pick me up ;D
The thread I was referring to; "Chaparral M'1876 Winchester NWMP carbine" as started by Rattlesnake Jack, shows up in "The Barracks" board and not in the "The Winchester Model 1876" board when I look at it. Just wondering if it possible to move it over here.....
I'm here, you're here, it's there;
Icebox
I'm for that Icebox Bob, Maybe someone can move it over.
Carver
I'll ask! :)
Quote from: CarverTripp on December 08, 2007, 11:40:52 PM
I'm for that Icebox Bob, Maybe someone can move it over.
Carver
Ok, now I'm confused and lost :P
Here's where I am:
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php?topic=17904.new;topicseen#new
Re: Jamison Brass Availability
Where are you?
I sent an eMail to Lyman today asking what they are basing their 45-75 reloading die dimensions on and explaining some of the problems that have been brought up here with the apparent lack of coordination between the rifle manufactures, case manufacturers and die manufacturers up to this point.
I hope that this isn't a duplication of info that has already been posted.
When I hear back from them I will post their answers.
HHW
High Water - it was us boyzs down here in south Jersey that found the wrong dimensions with the Lyman resizing dies. We compared the proper dimensions to several original 45-75 cases. Our 'mouthpiece' - Swiss Oscar - fellow SASS member, called Lyman detailing the incorrect dimensions (was sizing the shoulder incorrectly). Lyman's reply on the phone was ... OH S***!
The new dies will be out of production this month and hopefully available in January. If anyone has one of the incorrect resizing die, give them a call for a replacement
And for the good of all 45-75 shooters, we also determined that the initial batch of Buffalo Arms cases were also being made incorrectly. Again, our 'mouthpiece' talked with Skip at BA and they are now being made hydraulically correct
Quote from: john boy on December 09, 2007, 04:56:48 PM
Lyman's reply on the phone was ... OH S***!
Gotta love it! :D
Makes ya wonder why all of the folks involved in this "comedy of errors" didn't do the research :P
Obviously the WRA drawing wasn't too hard to come up with.............
John Boy,
Thanks for the info. Hopefully your group has Lyman on the right track.
Like I said, if I get a reply from them I'll post their answer.
HHW
QuoteObviously the WRA drawing wasn't too hard to come up with.............
HH ... Tis True, it's been around since
January 1918!WRC, I suspect, increased their case rim diameter from 056-057 to 057-062 because the toggle links on the original rifles were getting sloppy, generating misfires
But the story goes like this: Chaparral did their pre production re-engineering of the 45-75 Winchesters based on Jamison/TenX brass that TenX 'proposed' to make.
Hobie, I believe, is the only person that has announced that they have received any of the 45-75 TenX loaded ammo, with cases made by Bertram - 4198 powder and Magnus bullets. Talk about sub-contracting!
Then in some time in mid-stream of production, with the excess head space issue and brass with a 057 rim thickness that generated misfires, they changed to the 1918 WRC cartridge blueprint dimensions (057 to 062). It's my understanding, though I have not touched one of new cartridges that are being made in Germany, ... it's a clone of the this blueprint with a 062 rim thickness - which is OK with me. Resized 348's are 062 but with a smaller rim diameter and the 348 shoulders reduces the head space to ZERO! With 400 rounds through the barrel - not one misfire
Would have been 450 rounds, but our 100-200-300yd match got rained out today >:(
For what it's worth, just after we received our rifles, 3 of us did a 100yd test shoot using 20grs of 4198 and 23grs of 5744 reloads with the Lee 457-340F bullets. The XMP5744 groups were winners - hands down
Quote from: john boy on December 09, 2007, 07:44:38 PM
For what it's worth, just after we received our rifles, 3 of us did a 100yd test shoot using 20grs of 4198 and 23grs of 5744 reloads with the Lee 457-340F bullets. The XMP5744 groups were winners - hands down
John,
Know of anyone who has worked with H4895 in any of these calibers? Seems like it might be worth trying.
John Boy
Like I said, classic "cart before the horse" :D
Just for grins:
I have a hundred or so reformed 348 to 45-75 cases. These came from Charter and were test fire brass. They will not work in my personal rifle as I have set the headspace to zero using Jamison cases. I will trade these for Jamison rounds to anyone out there that has too much headspace and wants to "tighten" it up that way. Just contact me and we'll work out an equitable trade.
I really like XMP5744 and since there is more case capacity here than in a 45-70 case the starting loads that everyone is working up from (based on 45-70 load data) are low.
QuoteKnow of anyone who has worked with H4895 in any of these calibers?
Grizzly, Yes. Swiss Oscar loaded 20. The groups were OK but not as good as the XMP5744.
Hey, give it a try - your mileage may vary cause Swiss Oscar keeps chiming - 'I'm not a very good rifle shot' as he continues to beat us at our monthly long range matches ;)
Quote from: john boy on December 09, 2007, 08:03:52 PM
Grizzly, Yes. Swiss Oscar loaded 20. The groups were OK but not as good as the XMP5744.
Hey, give it a try - your mileage may vary cause Swiss Oscar keeps chiming - 'I'm not a very good rifle shot' as he continues to beat us at our monthly long range matches ;)
Yah, I've got a buddy like that too! That's always his alibi! ;D I think I will try some H4895.
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on December 09, 2007, 07:56:57 PM
I really like XMP5744 and since there is more case capacity here than in a 45-70 case the starting loads that everyone is working up from (based on 45-70 load data) are low.
Hoof Hearted you may want to check that. From what I've found on differant sites on the internet 45-70 cases hold between ( depending on the source of the info) 79 to 83.1 gr of water (average 81.05). My Jamison cases hold 76.1 gr of water, once fired .45-75 formed from 348 WW hold 71.5 and the same WW cases after being fired 6 or more times hole 76.66... gr of water. So the case capacity of my well used .348 WW/45-75 cases is 94.5% of th average 45-70 case.
Reference 5744 I agree. My best target load groups to date all use 5744. COG
CCG
I don't have time to repeat all the HARD work you have done. Great job, by the way! Although I'm not quite sure what an "average 45-70 case" is. I would think they vary quite a bit also from lot to lot and brand to brand. Also don't forget that the amountof space the base of the respective bullet has effect here. And freebore, case head diameter, bore size, bullet material, lend width, depth, etceteras all affect perceived pressure.
I started with the data from AA for the 45-70 and was able to expand upon it. Your experience may differ :o
I really hoped I wouldn't need the disclaimer ;D
On another powder matter altogether;
A full case of Swiss fffg cracks like a high power rifle and flattens the crap outta primers, along with deer and hogs...........I know ;D ;D