(http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/images/KucerColtRevRifle.jpg)
I saw a review of them a while ago in a magazine and they have an interesting history.
I am wondering if they shoot well or not.
I've been shooting C&B since the mid-1960's. I don't ever recall seeing any full-size Root Revolving rifle replicas.
Dixie Gun Works sells them, but I've never seen one.
Howdy Pards!
Yes, Dixie Gun Works is importing the Italian repro M1855 Colt Revolving Rifle, and has been for a few years.
It is the six shot .44 version, rather than the five shot .56 used by the Civil War military such as the initial rifle issued to Berdan's Sharpshooterws before they got their Berdan Contract NM1859 Sharps Rifles in June of 1862.
IMHO, the Italians forgot about two things... the Civil War ill-reputation of the gun for "chain-fires" that were rough on the shooter's forearm, and modern U.S. litigatious court culture.
Almost immediately, negative publicity was hurting sales, and Dixie dropped the price to "get rid of them."
But like the warning on some brands of lawnmowers not to use the mower to trim hedges, someone had the bright marketing idea to warn that the Colt M1855 Revolving Rifle should not be held as a conventional rifle but with the other hand under the trigger guard rather than in front of the cylinder down on the forestock.
And then further U.S. Dollar damages caused by the rising Euro increased prices by over 33% over regular price and almsot doubled the initial sale price. Last time I looked, they were $1250?
IMHO, between the cost, .44 and not .56, and the danger to the shooter- few have sold and are rarely seen.
Others' mileage may vary..
Mick Archer
Who would have bought one when they were $750 or so, had they been .56's Posse
I wonder if Walt Kirst could make a Konversion cylinder for 'em. . . . .
Just thinkn' again.
DD-DLoS
Every time I watch El Dorado and see Bull carrying his I want one. Then I check my pocketbook and go back to dreaming. I had a chance at an original about 10 years ago for a steal and didn't buy it because I was buying original Winchesters at the time. Foolish things we do in our youth.
Howdy!
I've seen an original used in several episodes of Gunsmoke, but never an original OR the repro in person. Personally, I think they're awesome looking!
The chain fire deal is way over-blown IF the proper size caps are used and don't get blown off while shooting.
A couple years ago I saw that Dixie's (then) newest catalog had them listed for $250 I think. I couldn't dial the phone fast enough ... just to be told that a typo had omitted the 1 ... making it $1250. It was a nice dream while it lasted! ;) ;)
I have seen some of the original carbines some of whiche were were made for Texas Rangers pre WBTS. They were in .44 I believe. When I heard Palmetto was making roots for Dixie, I hoped they were the carbine and began saving $0.01. My personal opinion is the carbine is a sweet gun. I have a shoulder stock for my 1860 Colt and it makes a sweet little plinker as well. The carbine pretty much eliminated some of the chaine fire problems because it is an easy hold at the trigger rather than in front of the cylinder. If I ever find the pot of gold, I will buy the rifle and have it redone as the carbine.
I made a drive up to Dixie Gun Works last year , First gun to catch my eye was the Root rifle , it is made by Palmetto and fit and finish was nice compaired to some of the other guns they sell . The Root felt good to shoulder but with the forearm its hard to resist useing it , it`s a rather heavy rifle , the cylinder is a long one and I`ve never seen a conversion for it .
Quote from: Steel Horse Bailey on September 11, 2007, 06:52:55 AM
Howdy!
The chain fire deal is way over-blown IF the proper size caps are used and don't get blown off while shooting.
I've been shooting C & B for a little over a year and I have had 3 chain fires. One with no lube or wad, one with lube only and one with wad only. Each time the fired chamber had a live cap on the nipple after the chamber fired. The only way for the chain fire to have happened was around the seated ball. All balls were .003-.004 oversized and cut a nice ring. Over blown? I don't think so.
QuoteThe only way for the chain fire to have happened was around the seated ball. All balls were .003-.004 oversized and cut a nice ring. Over blown? I don't think so.
My first question here would be concerning the cap/nipple "marriage". If they are crappy non-concentric factory nipples then a spark could certainly circumnaviagate its way into the nipple hole. If you had a lead ring then it would be impossible for sparks to bypass UNLESS you have had "ball jump" (no, I'm not talking about your underwear! ;) ) in a chamber thereby allowing sparks to get in. Just my 2 cents worth based upon shooting cap 'n ball pistols since the early 1970's. I have never had a chain fire.
Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on September 15, 2007, 01:37:50 PM
My first question here would be concerning the cap/nipple "marriage". If they are crappy non-concentric factory nipples then a spark could certainly circumnaviagate its way into the nipple hole. If you had a lead ring then it would be impossible for sparks to bypass UNLESS you have had "ball jump" (no, I'm not talking about your underwear! ;) ) in a chamber thereby allowing sparks to get in. Just my 2 cents worth based upon shooting cap 'n ball pistols since the early 1970's. I have never had a chain fire.
TRESCO nipples and #10 Remingtons. I've never seen anyone else have a chain fire but I sure have.
Hmmm ... ??? ???
I have never had a chain fire in 3 years of SASS event shooting.
Treso (brass) nipples, CCI caps, GOEX powder, and a .452" ball with a healthy amount of lube on the outside.
I pinch those caps just a bit and they fit fine.
I do smear a bit of lube in the empty cylinder chamber, though.
My1858 Rem (Pietta) revolvers are also free from chain fires thus far.
I believe they do happen, but, not nearly as frequently as folks would have you believe.
home cut wonder wads have helped for many. As do lube over the ball/bullet.
The only chain fire I have witnessed in over 35 years of shooting them, was a new pistol someone had just bought. It chained fired several times in a row, he evidently couldn't take a hint. It was 2 chambers at once. It turned out to be a flaw in the cylinder.
I guess that's why there's no fore stock on the Cattleman's revolving rifle. . .
DD-DLoS
I'm certainly not doubting anyone, least of all, my esteemed pard (I've not yet met ;) ) Nozzle Rag. Chain fires are CERTAINLY documented. Personally, in 35 yrs of BP shooting, I've never had one nor have I ever been with any shooter who has had one or even witnessed one. Perhaps I'm just lucky. And I almost always grease in front of the ball, as do the folks I've shot with. The times I HAVEN'T used grease, perhaps 19.99% of my shooting, I mostly used a wad or a greased wad. Sometimes a wad AND grease. ::) That takes care of 99.99% of the time. That leaves the 0.01% time remaining which has been using NO wad OR grease - like what was often done "back in the day." Until very recently, I've always struggled with ill-fitting caps, because of NOT being able to standardize the caps to the nipples. I've had 2 guns with the old, no-longer-available stainless steel Uncle Mike's nipples. VERY consistently sized, and they were the 1st company that realized that the SMALLER hole was the way to stop much of the cap splitting from blowback. I have recently found a reliable source of Remington #11 caps which seem to be made for the Unc. Mike's nips. I just (last week) got my 1st set of TRESO nipples on my Colt 1st Mod. Dragoon. (2nd Gen, USA-made.) I expected them to need #10 sized caps, but the CCI #10s I have are too tight. Again, the Remington #11s fit perfectly.
My point? I'm STILL puzzled. I usta think (dangerous for me, I know :o ::) ;) ) that chain fires (aside from the odd mechanical reason like Cpt. Augustus mentions) were stopped by grease in front of the balls. Then, the fire getting into an uncapped nipple was blamed - filmed and all, and DOES seem very logical - more so than the odd fire managing to pass backwards in a loaded cylinder PAST a well-fitting , squeezed ball. Now - I'm jes' scratchin' my head. ;D
I plan on buying one from Dixie this spring and converting it to a cartridge gun. I think it would make a great main match rifle in NCOWS. I'll probably make a new cylinder for it.....I'll have to research the chambering.....but I do have a couple of thousand .451 heeled bullets
Bill
Please - Please - PLEASE, Bill ...
Can I shoot it?
PLEASE ? !!!!! ;D
Bill after seeing the work you`ve done on the Henry ...I can`t wait to see this one .
Bill,
If I read Dixie's specifications correctly the barrel has a 0.440" bore and a 0.470" groove diameter.
What cartridge would you plan on converting this to? Or would you plan on lineing the barrel to a standard barrel diameter so that a standard cartridge could be used in a new cylinder?
This sounds like an interesting project and I would like to follow it through as you work on it.
Thanks.
HHW
I bought one this past year while I was in Iraq on my second deployment; I had the chambers opened up to .470" to match the groove-to-groove bore. Haven't shot it yet, but will soon. Mounting a Malcolm telescopic sight on it (a "cheap" copy, not the RHO Instruments version that's on my Sharps).
Just wondering if anyone had any updates on their successes/failures with this rifle. Anyone replace the nipples and, if so, with whose replacements?
Thanks.
Shooter McCoy
Good luck with parts as Palmetto went teats up.
I'd like to own one and have it converted to carbine.
Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on December 19, 2008, 02:35:07 AM
Good luck with parts as Palmetto went teats up.
When did this happen? I don't recall seeing anything about it.
Shooter McCoy
Quote from: Shooter McCoy on December 19, 2008, 12:31:47 PM
When did this happen? I don't recall seeing anything about it.
Shooter McCoy
Recently. A buddy told me that the guy who runs Deer Creek told him.
Quote from: Noz on September 15, 2007, 08:42:44 AM
I've been shooting C & B for a little over a year and I have had 3 chain fires. One with no lube or wad, one with lube only and one with wad only. Each time the fired chamber had a live cap on the nipple after the chamber fired. The only way for the chain fire to have happened was around the seated ball. All balls were .003-.004 oversized and cut a nice ring. Over blown? I don't think so.
Not sure I follow the above description.
In any case of a chain fire, I don't see how a "live cap) could be present. For that matter any cap at all.
The chamber that chain fires isn't under the hammer, therefore there is nothing to retain it. Therefore, it will ignite (I guarantee) and most likely fly off the nipple (unless ya hammered it on).
Yes, I've had a few chain fires in the past 35 yrs of C&B. When I was a lad, I had all six go off at once. No ill effect other than the loading rammer screw sheared and the rammer went into the dirt). At the time, I was using poorly fitting caps and was pinching them. I was also sloppy at time getting powder into the chambers during loading ( powder falls down around the recoil shield area when loading). During early SASS matches, my club required me to do one round reloads (capping the 6th) after firing five. I had one of these uncapped chambers go off inadvertantly and was allowed to cap on the clock prior to firing (not sure we even had a "BP" category back then). From these experiences, I've concluded that most chainfires are from poorly fitting caps coming off under recoil and the resulting flash-back through nipples ignite other chambers.
Now, I did say "most" happen this way. Can it happen from the front? Certainly. One possibility coming to mind would be rough, egg-shaped and irregular chambers. In some guns it may only be one or two bad apples, or it could be all six. So, a .454 ball may not fill out to fit the widest diameter. In this event forward flash could set off the charge. Maybe not every time, but it increases the possibility.
Oh, yes, on the topic of Root rifles. I've handled and examined a number of originals. The original Colt weapon has a number of minor design features to minimize the possibility of a chain fire as well as to contain/reduce the front cylinder flash, thus to some extent protecting the foreward arm. No, I din't get a chance to fire one, but would gladly demonstrate if the owners would consent. The ones I've handled were approximately NRA "fine" condition. The owners bought them as investment. Most of these folks cringe when they hear about some of the old iron I've shot. ::)
Regards,
Slim
Montana Slim, I had a chain fire this spring, and the cap remained on. I actually had to pry it off. The innards were burnt out, but the copper was still intact.
As for the Root. I saw a nice original at an auction a couple 3 years back. Ended up going for around 11,000 and change. It was a very very nice one, and when I handled it, it made me want it bad. Wanted a replica, but couldnt see paying that much for it.
I bought my Root .31 revolver for 100 bucks at the same auction. Tells ya what shape my Root is in, doesnt it.
DM
Just another thought... It certainly isn't a Root, but if you want a revolving C+B that shoots like a rifle, you might want to try the Uberti made carbine sold by Cabela's. I've got one, and while I haven't exactly fired thousands of rounds through it - more like a few hundred, I've never had a misfire or a chainfire. 2 to 2.5 inch groups at 50 yards are the norm (same for two others that I'm aware of) that's off some sort of rest under the left hand with which I grip the right hand. AND I assume that any of the conversion cylinders for Uberti Remingtons to 45 LC will work. They aren't exactly cheap, but they are great guns from my somewhat limited experience. And every time I've had mine out around other people, it immediately becomes the center of attention. I assume that a Root copy would be even more so - at least to those who recognize the gun - but the Remington carbine is a fun, light, attention drawing item to be sure. I probably don't need to add this in this forum, but too many have responded the same way for me to leave it out. It ain't no catch as catch can deer gun! You're still limited to the relatively small powder charges of an 1858 Remington cylinder. I've had people tell me that they were going to order one as soon as they got home to circumvent the limitations of a shotgun/muzzleloader only deer season. I'm sure it would kill a deer very nicely at reasonable ranges with reasonable presentation - ie side on shots at walking or motionless deer, but the idea that you could gain a 50 or 100 yard advantage over a well made shotgun/slug combo is nuts. Oh well, some people have to learn the hard way.
Jamie
To answer the subjectline of this thread: "Yes, I do."
I was instrumental in the import of five Palmetto Root revolving rifles to Norway back in 2006.
They were all delivered with two spare cylinders each.
Since then one has been cut down to a carbine, and one has been converted to cartridge.
I have enjoyed shooting mine as a mainmatch rifle, changing cylinders on the clock, on the occational stage at various shoots in Norway and Sweden for the past years.
I have also shot it at paper targets at 50m/55yds with good results, although success at the intended range of 100m/110yds has so far eluded me...
I recall a review of the first Palmetto Root's posted on the Dixie Gun Works homepage:
"...forget shooting glasses; you need a motorcycle helmet with a visor...!" :o
Well, the guns had a couple of faults, apart from the somewhat rickety mechanism that is inherent in the Root rifle.
1. The front sight was attached using to much heat/pressure, resulting in a tightspot in the barrel just under the sight.
Fix: to counterbore/freebore the barrel for about 2" from the muzzle.
2. Gas from the gap between cylinder and barrel recoiled back into the shooters face.
Fix: To "streamline" the frame forward of the cylinder, based on photos of original Root Rifles, also to drill a venthole through the topstrap directly over the cylinder/barrel-gap. In addition I had the rear of the barrel turned slightly conical on the outside so that the gases would not "bounce" off the backend of the barrel.
These fixes have enabled me to shoot the rifle using only regular shooting glasses and a longsleeved left-hand weldingglove.
The load is the standard "Colt Walker-load" of 50grains 2F, one WonderWad, .457" roundball topped by a good glob of grease.
I use the long RWS #1055 percussion caps.
While not for everyone, these rifles sure are great fun when they function as Sam Colt and Elisha Root intended them to...! :)
Quote from: Steel Horse Bailey on September 11, 2007, 06:52:55 AM
The chain fire deal is way over-blown
FWIW, I've been shooting C&B revolvers for about fourteen years. Out of thousands of rounds I have had two chain fires (two shots at a time). Don't know why, sometimes things just happen. I have also been a Civil War "buff" for twenty two years and have read about the Colt revolving rifle and the complaints (and compliments) about them from the soldiers that used them. If you shoot one with your hand on the front stock and have a chain fire............over-blown or not, it only takes once to get the nickname "Stumpy" ;D
That said, I think they look great. Darned if I could afford one though.
Saw an original Colt cap-n-ball rifle at a recent gun show - sticker price $14,000. :o
Also saw on a documentary - another reason they failed in the marketplace was the tendency to spit fragments & sparks into the shooters face and arms (being that the cylinder is so close to the face) - 'thou not sure why it would be different than using an 1860 w/ shoulder stock.
It's funny how faulty products become the future valuable antiques/collector items. My parents had a 1940 Willys coupe when they married in 1950, father sold it because it kept breaking down, kicked himself for the rest of his life as they became extremely valuable to classic car enthusiasts...
Been shooting C&B for over 30 years, had 2 chain fires...more than enough thank you! One was out of a Remington .44, possibly a loose cap. One from a Navy Arms Yank in .44, not fun, had loaded all 6 chambers (I was shooting from the bench, not carrying) fired the chamber in line and had the chamber on either side go too. Stripped the threads off of the arbor, or weakened them. Turns out had some mis-sized round ball in the box, found a couple .440 how they got there I have no idea, had no .45 MLs at the time. Apparently fouling in the chambers made them feel tight, backed out enough on first shot to allow them to discharge. This is pure speculation though. All I know is, firing three chambers off at the same time made a .44 Mag seem pleasant.
Oh, yeah, the next load the barrel and arbor parted company with frame! Lucky that the cylinder didn't drop. Coulda ruined my whole day.
I've seen loose-fitting bullets work their way out of cylinders during the recoil of firing, but this is either the fault of the gun (poorly cut chambers) and/or the fault of the person loading. Note I also had chain fires back when I was 13 or 14, none since then. Another thing that improve your odds is to set a limit on your powder charge such that the ball is seated well below flush of the cylinder mouth, and that the ball is rammed tight on the powder. Both of these reduce risk of your balls working loose prematurely ;D.....BTW, I use .454 RBs in all my pistols, even my Piettas.
Slim
Good idea, Slim. Part of the problem with that Navy Arms Yank was when I inspected the barrel, noted it was also split at the bottom starting at the forcing cone. Perhaps it was just a tad out of time also? Ever since I use a wooden dowel sanded down to a snug, not tight, fit in the bore and ensure that it will go all the way to the base of each chamber in the cylinder. Also do this with any spare cylinders I buy. Not sure if it really proves anything or not, but, it gives me a bit more confidence that the same won't happen again.
Quote from: Dakota Widowmaker on September 09, 2007, 04:43:46 PM
(http://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/images/KucerColtRevRifle.jpg)
I saw a review of them a while ago in a magazine and they have an interesting history.
I am wondering if they shoot well or not.
Bottom Dealling Mike had one to ply with at the Westshore match a couple of years ago. He even wrote an article on it for "Guns of the Old West".
I got the chance to fire a couple of rounds out of it. Wasn't bad, but you have to keep your hands aft of the cylinder gap.
I'm glad this came to the top again. My total chain fires came to 4 before I backed off and did some serious study of the guns and ammo I was using.
The culprit turned out to be an alloy that I had produced in an effort to have pretty shiny balls. I added some linotype to the mix.
Any casting flaw such as a "start of casting session wrinkle" was not swaged away with the hard alloy as it would have been the case with a dead soft alloy.
This left a void between the side of the chamber and the ball. The result was flash from adjacent chamber entering the offending chamber and bypassing the grease or mal-fitting wad.
The answer was to simply avoid any alloy that is not pure lead in my cap and ball guns.
I think I could easily get by with no wads and no grease but I feel much more comfortable with the lubed wads so I use them. Also helps if you are trying to build a "target" load and need a bit of room taken up so that you get good compression.
The other thing that I was taken to task for was the unfired cap remaining on the nipple. They did. You can believe it or not, makes no difference to me.