I'm currently loading my shotshells with about 66gr of FFg Elephant BP, 1 1/8oz of #7 1/2 shot using WAA12R Red Wads. I would like to load less BP with a little more shot. Do I need a different wad? If so, which one?
You're asking "why do I want to use less BP"?
It seems like I'm not hitting the targets with enough shot. They do move or fall down, depending on what type targets they are, but it just doesn't seem solid enough. It was suggested that the amount of powder I'm using is blasting the wad through the shot pattern and that I might want to try less powder.
If I push the wad further down to eliminate air space between the bottom of the wad and the powder, won't I need a longer shot cup at the top of the wad. I guess this will result on more shot being added. Right? What wad would I want to use in this case?
Thanks for listening.
What are you using fer a scattergun and what chokes or lack thereof?
Makes a difference in what I reccommend, beleive it or not!!!
Before you run off and start changing things --- did you pattern the load you are using now? It might not "seem" solid on the timer, at a match, but if you haven't patterned the load, you won't really know for sure. What you start with will dictate the changes to get to what you want. Is the patten tall or wide? Too tiny? Like Cut's said, the kind of gun and chokes will make a difference too. I've been told I'm a little too linear at times, but it can be frustrating to keep trying random changes and not getting anywhere near what you want. Tell us more and we'll kick it around.......
I'z got an old sawed off (19") 12 Ga 'n' patterned loads in 5g increments from 40 to 80g (with WW red wads).
I found that anythang up to about 60g was a good tight pattern and, above that, it started to donut (blow a hole thru the centre). I settled on 50g. Since me 12 Ga is fer tough knock-downs, I wanted to keep the pattern tight.
Suggest ya might wanna do the same thang.
Some good suggestions already, but my troubles with knockdowns and such ended when I went a whole nuther route. I got this 12ga load from a real good pard ( Cactus Cris )
Win red AA hulls
Win 209 primers
Win red wad
4.3 Lee scoop 3F powder
1 Oz. That is right 1 oz mixed shot. Half #8 and half #6
good crimp and spray hulls with silcone lube spray ( auto parts store)
Never fails on knockdowns, will take down a popper bird
Recoil very light.
Sounds like a funny load huh? Well, I tried many a load and this is the one that works time after time in my SXS with 20" barrels and Mod chokes.
Spraying with silicone spray will shuck those hulls right into the ROs chest even after 6 stages. I mix the two sizes of shot in a tupperware bowl and pour into my reloader. I used to try every load I ever heard of, I patterned them all and I have settled in on this one and it has been good to me. Thanks to Cactus Cris and Tex. :)
HD, humor an old bird hunter who's done all kinds a strange things with shotguns. Next time drop the #8 in the hull and the #6 on top. I got a dollar shays it improves the parren cause the #6's will hold there speed slighly better. This will keep the slightly faster shot from bangin' inta the slower shot. Old turkey hunter's trick, copied by Remington.
Delmonico,
Yes, you know the theory then and just why only one ounce of shot is all that is needed for CAS. The number six gives you the power for the knockdowns ( and I have seen some tough ones ) and the number eight works great for swingers and clay birds and other poppers. The recoil is hardly anything compared to what I have tried in the past including all the way up to 80grs and those felt wads and such.
Speaking of felt wads, I tried a lot of combos with them until I got it through my head that the pattern is too spread out and weak to work consistantly. For the little effort it is to use the plastic wads and more importantly the shot cup, I like the sheer mass of once ounce of two different sizes of shot leading down range.
Now, are you saying to put one size in and top off with the other? I would have to use dippers to load the shot. It already goes slow enough for me because I use a dipper for the powder. I load a bunch of shells at a time and I will try your method, but still I find the load I described to have been my best yet. I am an admitted tinkerer and can never leave well enough alone, but I have stuck with this load for more than a year now. :)
The #8's will even give it that extra push ater the #6's start it, gettin' somethin' ta start fallin' is the difficult part. As most Know I'm a ren-actor not
a Cas shooter, but I know a bit how shotguns work and it is the most misunderstood firearm. Bird hunters, clay shooters and CAS shooters most all fail becuse they don't pattern a gun seriously. don't know how it paterns or even where.
I have taken many, many of what most gun wriers will say it the toughest knockdown target, the rooster pheasant. I perfer 7/8 oz # 7's ,not 7 1/2) out of a skeet choke (0.05 constriction, tain't much) Yes I am limited ta 40 yards, but 99% of my birds are dead when they hit the ground. Bet I could bout take any knockdown on a CAS range. This load duplicates the old time factory 20 ga black powder load, but I've got the advantage of good shot.
Oh that reminds me, good shot works good, cheap shot don't. Nuther thought, for those havin' trouble.
I dont know what am doing wrong but i load 100+ ggr and i don't have a hole in my pattern ???
Found some skeet ammo and cut of the crimp, poured the lead to the side and trashed the powder.
Trimmed of the "shock absorber" from the shotcup. Put the blackpowder were its suposed to be, cardboard disc
the shot cup and the pellets then another cardboard disc then rollcrimed it. Tested it on a slab plate and
the result was a nice round "swat" on the plate.
The shotgun was a Husqvarna sbs 20" barrels, no choke.
Might just show that shotguns are persnickity things and not just a tube that blows shot out the end. ::)
On shotgun trick that has improved everyone i've ever played with is to get some 220 grit emory paper and put some spiral roughness right at the end of the barrel. The less constiction, the better this helps as a rule. This slows the wad slightly, this keeps it from slammin' inta the back of the shot column. This havin' the wad bang inta the back can mess up the pattern.
The high antimony shot also helps paterns, it is rouner to begain with and it stays rounder goin' down the barrel. Round shot flies truer. And yes Q-Ball, factory skeet loads have hard shot.
Cuts Crooked et all;
I have not patterned my shot gun. Maybe I can do it tomorrow at the local cowboy shoot.
I have a Norinco Model 99 "1887 Coach Gun" that I bought at Big 5 for $199. It has a 20" barrel and one side feels like it has no choke and the other side has some choke to it. I don't know the terminology of the different chokes.
I'm pretty sure that all those Norinco coach guns are the same as far as the choke goes.
Thanks for everyone's replys.
Ok, I AIN"T no xpert! But here's wat I kinda come up with as a genrl rool: Older scatter guns, 60 and earlier, LIKE the old fashioned card & cushion wads! Particularly iffin they ain't been bobbed 'n still got chokes! Those gunz were designed with those ol fashioned wads in mind. Yeah I know, plastic shot cups had been around fer a while, but manufactures were slow on the uptake when it came to building thier gunz ta take max advantage of the new shell technology. The forcing cones remained short and that's wat them gunz like. Add in that the chokes were also designed with those old wads in mind and you have gunz that really perform GREAT with BP loads made entirely with the aging technology! Using 80 gr of 3F a hard overpowder wad, then a cushion wad, topped off with 1 1/8 oz of shot will give me absolutely perfect patterns that the quickest featherball couldn't find a way through...in my antique Crescent SxS choked full and modified.
That same load in a buddies Norinco is hopeless!!!!!!!! It blows holes through the pattern that you could drive a truck through! Mucho xperimenting revealed that his gun likes those red plastic wads. he loads 65 gr of 3F, a hard overpowder wads, HALF of a cushion wad, then 1 1/8 oz of shot in a shotcup with the stem cut off.
In my Crescent, his load makes nasty clumpy patterns that look like the gun is overchoked!
The concensus is that if yer shootin a newer gun, the forcing cones were cut with the new plastic technology as a major consideration. When shooting BP in these guns one ends up with the powder charge getting past the wad when it passes the forcing cone and that messes up patterns. The plastic wads were NOT made with BP in mind and at the lower pressures BP gives they often don't seal the best. Thus I often recommend that one start out with a combination of old and new technology when loading for the newer gunz with BP. The shot cup helps hold the pattern together a bit, and the hard wad and cushion wads does a bit better keeping the powder charge from getting into the shot column.
Now, none of this is something that can be considered "hard & fast" insofar as loading for an individual gun goes...each gun can be a law unto itself, but I've found that it's a good starting point . Best bet is too xperiment a bit, pattern each load you try, keep records and watch fer a "pattern" (pun intended) to show itself!
And try to have fun while doing it! Fer me, that's one of the best parts of loading BP...fooling arounf to find out wat werks! ;D
OK, check on the barrel......wat shell length does it give? One of my friends has a Norinco hammer gun and it is chambered for the 3 inch shells! (That about blew my mind! :o ) If yours has those 3" chambers, it will like the longer shells a lot better.
It IS chambered for 3" shells. I have been using and still want to use the 2 3/4" shells.
I also have a Norinco '97 Pump that I'm sure can take the 3" shells. I don't have it right now because my son-in-law has it, but I'm pretty sure that is how the barrel is marked.
I guess I'll just have to do some 'sperimentin'.
One more question, though. There is not supossed to be any gap or space between the base of the shot wad and the black powder, right? If I load less powder and push the wad down further into the hull, that will leave the top of the wad column below the crimp and a space between the shot and the crimp causing the shot to be loose and rattle around. Is that OK?
Thanks!
Throw on an overshot card. Keeps everybody together. If you use a star crimp, it will dent in and some of the shot will come out if the total of powder, wad and shot is a mite short. If it's too much, especially the powder after a day or so the crimp will poke up and it won't hold, again spilling shot. I go a hair short and use a card for that reason.
>It IS chambered for 3" shells. I have been using and still want to use the 2 3/4" shells.<
A 3" chamber fired with 2&3/4 inch hulls acts just like a long forcing cone chamber. This is just what Cuts Crooked was trying to get across to you--try switching to some alternate technologies. Overshot wads, even in a 2&3/4" hull with a star crimp help a lot.
I forgot about the difference in the forching cones between old and new shotguns. workin' with some of these over the years, more with Nitro than Black, the fack that the older guns have about 20-25% more constriction than the newer guns because of the plastic wads. Back in the days before factory turkey loads the size of a roman candle and factory turkey guns I made turkey loads for several friends with older gunw. They worked good because the older full choke guns could be played with ta give 80-90% patterns. And none of the turkeys ever noticed there was only 1 1/4 oz shot.
The real point ta this is SHOOT THAT SHOTGUN ON PAPER AND PLAY WITH IT TA GET THE LOAD TA WORK FER YOU.
Harder shot, plastic between the barrel and shot, plus a little less velocity will all work ta tighten patterns if needed. Going the other way will open them, just rules of thumb, but will get you started. Sometimes even shot size will make a differance.
Course today many just use them screw in chokes, many like them, but I don't. Never seen the need fer them, just another toy ta tinker with, many think they're great.
Ok Pard, I have a bit of an understanding now....and I apologize fer not getting back quicker with this!
The three inch chamber makes a world of difference! As noted, the longer chamber acts like a longer forcing cone when using the shorter shells. And it right there in the forcing cone area where yer worst problem is probably happening. I would try the three inch shells and see if that makes a major improvement! Wat ya might/could do is stick with the powder & shot load you have been using and take up the extra room in the longer shell with more cushion wad. You can even split cushion wads and add short sections to the charge column until you achieve the correct overall charge length to fit in the shells. And that will have the added benefit of helping a bit more to keep the powder gases contained BEHIND the shot column.....and like others have been saying PATTERN that thing each time you try sumpthin different!
BTW, That Norinco 97....does not have a 3" chamber!!!!!!!! You can get them to go in the gun, and they will fire. But pressures will go off the scale and it might/could blow up! :o (if it does have 3" marked on the barrel, please get a picture showing the markings and post it! I don't claim to know everything about em but I'm purdy sure Norinco never made such a critter and if they did I would like to be set straight on it!)
You fellers is barking up the correct tree, but I noticed the original posting to say "If I push the wad further down to eliminate air space between the bottom of the wad and the powder, won't I need a longer shot cup at the top of the wad". WHOA PARD! If'n Ya gots air space- thar be trouble. I don't really think thar be room fer any air space, soze you is likely OK.
I can not imagine a 3" chamber in a Nostinko. I do own a 16ga recently manufactured Stoeger that has the most liberal opened up forcing cone I ever did see on a production SXS. Danged thing caused the hot gasses to jet right by the wadding and payload and made an awful mess of plastic wadding of any kind. I finally got it to behave in a most civillized fashion by loading lube saturaed 14ga X 1/2" thick fiber wads in my ammo. In a large capacity 16ga case such as the Cheddite the loading was 2 1/2 drams of ffg, teh saturated 14ga wad and 1oz #7 1/2 shot with over shot card and 8 fold pie crimp. Shoots like it ought to now and no hint of blown patterns. Hot gasses jetting by the wadding will ruin any pattern!
prs
I don't know which factory actually produced the Norinco shotguns (Norinco was an importer not a manufacturer). But my chinese SxS is made by Jing An, it has 3"chambers. The barrell is marked "12ga 3" chamber modified made in china."
Yup! 3" chambers in the SxSs, but not in the 97s.
Sorry, I missed the line about the 97.
Cuts Crooked:
I got my Norinco '97 back and checked the barrel markings. It DOES say 2 3/4 Shells. The SxS says 3" Shells.
I patterned the SxS yesterday. I'm not sure what I should be looking for but the target was a piece of cardboard shaped like a person's head and torso. The shot was evenly spread throughout the target. I'm guessing it was about 10 to 12 yards from me.
After looking at the pattern, maybe I'm just a crummy shooter with a SxS during a match.
PRS:
When I said "If I push the wad further down to eliminate air space between the bottom of the wad and the powder, won't I need a longer shot cup at the top of the wad", what I should have added in there some where was "after loading less powder"
Howdy Two Bits,
The "art of scattergunning" can get pretty esoteric when it comes to patterns and how to improve them. There are lots of tricks to get better patterns out of a gun, both tighter and more open. Turkey hunters want a pattern that is tighter than blazes! If they can get a soft ball sized pattern at 25-30 yards they are in Heaven! Quail hunters on the other hand, want as open a pattern as they can sqeeze out of a gun....and still get a smooth shot spread with no holes in it to speak of.
"Choke" is determined by how large or small the patterns are at given ranges, I cain't recall exactly what percentages of shot are supposed to be in a 30" circle at a given range to determine what the choke is. I hope someone will jump in here with that information.
However, at CAS ranges, most of that stuff is not very important! What you are trying to find out by patterning your gun is, much like rifles and pistols, exactly where is it shooting too! You need to draw a 30" circle on your pattern paper and AIM at a dot in the center. Then examine the paper and take note of your shot pattern in relation to that dot. Is it throwing the shot swarm high? Low? right or left? Then you can adjust you aiming point accordingly when shooting at targets. Usually any problems in "point of aim/point of impact" are not revelvant enough to worry about, but once in a while one finds a gun that throws way off and either needs the services of a smith or the shooter can correct by aiming to make allowence for the difference.
Regarding what PRS wrote about air space: The golden rule of shooting BP in any gun is "No Air Space in the Cartridge"!!!! Leaving air space does a couple of things, It makes the powder burn less effceciently, and it it creates a condition that could leave a ring in your chamber or even cause a ruptured barrel! :o That's not very likey to happen in your gun designed for 3" magnums....but it could happen. As to your question about how to avoid that: In your case, you could add extra shot to the shell. It won't hurt anything, with black powder loads, if the shot goes above the plastic wad within the confines of the cartridge. And in building BP shotshells it is always better to go in the direction of more shot than powder in order to fill up the shell. Another route to go would be to put more cushion wad in the shell to take up the extra space. The fibre cushion wads can be split so as to add a bit more to take up the space in a shell by adding a partial wad on top of a full wad. This also has the effect of creating a better seal to help prevent blowby as the shot column passes through the more open area of the forcing cone.
Finally, I apologize if this isn't very clear & concise. I'm not a very good writer...and I'm certainly NOT an expert about this stuff. I'm just a pard who has struggled with the same things you are learning about now! There are some very good books out there by guys like Doc Shapiro and Mike Venterino about loading BP cartridges for CAS but I don't know if there are any that are tailored for scattergunz and BP. If there are, Would some of you pards pass the information to us here? PLEASE!!! :)
I'm gonna say a bit about choke, first of all what is marked on the gun is a guide and only a guide. Used ta help a friend from time ta time at a gunshop, my friend owned a barrel mike and we miked fer customers fer free. You would be surprised how many would come in with the trap gun of they're dreams they were thinkin' on buyin, mike the choke constriction and decide from there with out ever patternin' it.
Constricion makes the choke work, but patterns will still vary with the load used. As an example, many know my birdgun is an 870 Remmy 28 gauge double barrel. ;D Ye it has two interchangable barrels, marked mod and skeet. By playin' with the load I can shoot more open than cylinder or close to modified with the skeet choke. From skeet to a very tight full with the modified barrel. And yes just fer referance I run the mike down both one time. 0.005 and 0.025 constriction.
But yet they will vary. There are many ways to pattern a shotgun. most use a stupid percent number or somethin' like that. Numbers on paper never killed anything except accountants. ;D
Figger out what the minimum and maximum range you will shoot targets are. fire the gun at at least 3 differt patternin' papers and max and minimum range. Will the point of aim kill the target with out destroyin' the meat if it is a bird. If so it'll work. Clay targets, never too dead. Fer knockdowns, how many does it take. I leave this to someone else cause I don't know and smaller shot will take more.
As fer screw in chokes if yer gun has them, find on that works well fer ya and leave it in till ya clean the gun. Other wise you'll always have the wrong one in the gun (in yer mind) I don't want ta see ya out there with a possibles bag full of chokes and a cordless choke srcewer in and outer. You'll just look silly.
Now I must clean the froth off'a my keyboard and get more coffee.