Just a short quick question. Does NCOWS allow the use of Coyote Cap's new 93/97 shotgun. I looked through the by-laws and didn't see it mentioned, but maybe it's listed somewhere's else.
From the minutes of the 27th Territorial Congress (http://www.ncows.org/minutes_of_the_twentyseventh.htm):
Quote11: A motion to add 1893 reproduction Winchester shotguns made by IAC to the approved list. (Bursovsky, Williams) Motion Passes 28 yes, - 1 no (Boeke)
We just got that info on the website this week, you must have looked just before that.
Is anybody shooting Coyote Cap's 93/97?
I've never seen one up close and I'm curious about the design.
Any reviews?
Pancho
Yep,
I saw one at the SASS convention, when Cap first proposed it's acceptance by SASS's TG's. (It failed.) The difference is the 93 has a larger loading/ejection port than the 97. Cap said the 97 was designed to correct the initial problems that winchester had with the original 93. In his words the new copy of the 93 is basically a 97 with the larger 93 port.
Hope that helps.
Cole
Bought one back in 2006 very nice, loads and shoots very well and can dry fire the H@LL out of it. Have had one problem with loading the mag. tube up it wants to kicks the next round out of the tube onto the ground when action is closed. Sent it back to Cap this week he said that some times the mag springs will stick allowing this to happen. If you want I can bring it to 2010 National shoot and you can use it.
J. R. Logan
NCOWS should have cut the approval of the shotgun off at the Winchester 1887. I'm sorry but the pumps look too modern in relation to the rest of the shotguns....JMHO
Bill
I think 1900 would be a good cutoff date.
I'm kind of with Bill on this one, the 97, no matter when it came out, really has no connection with the America West. But, what really drives me nuts is the way the 97 has become a single shot in SASS, Incredibly stupid and without an ounce of history.
Personally, I think that there should be a rule that all shotguns start empty and must be stoked on the clock, this means, for example, if you have repeating shotgun (like an 1887 or a 1897) and you are shooting an 8 round shotgun stage, you must start empty and fill the magazine before engaging targets. When you run out you have to stoke it again for the remaining targets. Back in the stone age of CAS when there were not a bunch of rules about what you could do with a shotgun, we tried all kinds of stuff and stoking is actually not a slow way to go, and it actually has the plus of being historically accurate.
The 97 is not the only problem here. I was reading Coyote Cap's web page today to try to figure out what is wrong with an 1887 (Chicom) we have at work and I found out that his "Special" guns won't actually take rounds in the magazine. (Check me if I am wrong here, I have never handled one, just going on what his website says) As such, you can't actually stoke the magazine, its effectively a double. So now folks shoot single shot 1897s and two shot 1887s, yuck.
But hey, come to think of it, I'm not sure what the rules are in NCOWS, I'm just ranting about something I hate in SASS. Boy I wish I were somewhere closer to an NCOWS possie.
Quote from: Roscoe Coles on September 29, 2009, 02:21:55 AM
The 97 is not the only problem here. I was reading Coyote Cap's web page today to try to figure out what is wrong with an 1887 (Chicom) we have at work and I found out that his "Special" guns won't actually take rounds in the magazine. (Check me if I am wrong here, I have never handled one, just going on what his website says) As such, you can't actually stoke the magazine, its effectively a double. So now folks shoot single shot 1897s and two shot 1887s, yuck.
I own one of CC's 87's with the 'drop two' modification and I can stoke the magazine.
NCOWS rules do allow you to stoke your shotgun magazine on the clock. This makes my 87 loads of fun on stages with mutiple shotgun engagements.
Pancho
QuoteI'm sorry but the pumps look too modern in relation to the rest of the shotguns....JMHO
Probably one reason why so few 97s are seen on most NCOWS ranges.
For those of us who are 'tenderfeet,' what is "stoking?" I've heard the term before but haven't seen it actually explained.
Putting all the shells needed, or that it will hold, in the magazine before you start shooting. The way you would do it in a real gunfight.
Thanks!
So.......here goes......what does Coyote Cap do to the original design of the 1887, and, is there any documentation that this was done in the 19th century.....I doubt it.
So, this probably means that it is an illegal modification to a original design and is not allowed in NCOWS......show me different. The approval only says from the manufacture....it says nothing about an after market modification to the shotgun. Again....show me.
To me this has the same feeling as the short stroke in the toggle link rifles...something to make them faster and another gamer modification.
Bill
Quote from: Pancho Peacemaker on September 29, 2009, 06:12:55 AM
I own one of CC's 87's with the 'drop two' modification and I can stoke the magazine.
NCOWS rules do allow you to stoke your shotgun magazine on the clock. This makes my 87 loads of fun on stages with mutiple shotgun engagements.
Pancho
Thanks Panco, the site said something about the carrier not going down far enough to feed shells in the mag, but I seem to have misread it. Still, I think the 2 shot mod ain't period and should be banned, like short stores etc.
I happen to have an 87, and it is one of the imports from China. It is capable of being loaded with two rounds, just as were the ORIGINALS, but it requires practice doing so. Nothing is done to alter the shotgun, it can be loaded full up, or otherwise. What is required is to insert the two rounds in a specific way to allow the top round to chamber when the action is closed. If not done in this manner, the top round will not chamber, and the gun jams. Just like the original 87's.
Just to let you be aware that both originals and the modern copies can be loaded two rounds at a time, and they do not enter the magazine tube.
Bob........Just to clarify, I was referring to the coyote cap modifications only, not to the factory gun....not the ones straight from the manufacturer.
Bill
Quote from: French Jack on September 30, 2009, 06:31:40 AM
I happen to have an 87, and it is one of the imports from China. It is capable of being loaded with two rounds, just as were the ORIGINALS, but it requires practice doing so. Nothing is done to alter the shotgun, it can be loaded full up, or otherwise. What is required is to insert the two rounds in a specific way to allow the top round to chamber when the action is closed. If not done in this manner, the top round will not chamber, and the gun jams. Just like the original 87's.
Just to let you be aware that both originals and the modern copies can be loaded two rounds at a time, and they do not enter the magazine tube.
So, whats the deal with the Cyote Cap "specials?" My understanding is that they are modified to make the two shot load work, I have seen folks using them and they are VERY slick and fast. As you point out, the originals can be loaded this way but not reliably, you can't just slam two rounds in the top and expect it to work. As such, Like Bill, I would think the "Specials" constitute a non period modification.
As for the 87 itself, its a cool gun and I wish I had a long barreled one.
Obviously the "mods" have progressed further in the last couple of years since we reviewed the 87's and passed them in 2006. If now the magazine is non functional as a result, then certainly it is not permissible. I suspect that the fact that none of the early generation mods changed the basic function of the carrier and its behavior, then it may be the case that the function is changed to operate soley as a two shot repeater.
That could be easily verified if questioned, and if it is, easily disallowed on the spot.
No differently than a question of an alleged short stroke rifle.
OK, I went back to Coyote Cap's website to see what got me confused and here it is. Referring to the new 87 he writes:
There is also a new change to the "Two Shot Feeding System" of the IAC M-87w-20 and our own M-87wcse-18, called a "Top Gun Action". These changes were originally SASS approved, but because the factory changed the SASS approved specifications for the "Two Shot Feeding" system, in an attempt to prevent a possible warranty situation (from buyers that did not understand why the carrier would stop at the 3/4 down position), we have been forced to return to the original specifications and we call this change, (which is actually a major internal improvement from factory) a "Top Gun Action", which is a return to what was originally approved by SASS, so that each M-87 would operate to it's maximum capabilities.
From this it sounds like Coyote caps "Top Gun Action" only goes 3/4 of the way down, which would prevent loading the magazine, but then again, it may mean something else (its not exactly clear). In any case, even he calls it "A major internal improvement" that changes the gun from the original specification.
I have one of these, the top gun modification simply provides a partial stop to the carrier, so that you can place two rounds onto the carrier with some force, and it will properly align for feeding. You can also with a little more authority push the carrier all the way down and stoke the magazine full. With rounds in the magazine it will function normaly. Only with the magazine empty does the 2 round system work, as it uses a beveled hole in the magazine follower to "catch" the shell carrier for the two shot load.
So, you might say that shell carrier is "short stroked?"
Actually, the carrier does drop the full amount. The friction "stop" is the nose of the carrier that is held at a slightly higher angle to allow the top shell to feed into the chamber. If any pressure is applied to the forward end of the shell, the crimped end will drop and will not feed into the chamber, jamming the action. On the models we looked at, this feature was present. It did not make the gun operate reliably unless the proper feeding technique was followed.
After a slight bit of wear, which happens inevitably with the soft Chinese parts, even this feature is pretty well defeated, leaving the user with the same performance as an original without this "stop".
Now, if there is substantial change to the carrier to prevent this behavior, then Coyote may have gone too far with his mod. A current example would need to be examined to verify this one way or the other.