Thinking about converting my Pietta 1851 .36 Navy

[Doug.38PR]

Thinking about converting my Pietta 1851 .36 Navy.  1) I'm not sure I want to do it to my current ball and cap because it was my first handgun of anykind and a gift from mom and dad.  Rather not take away from it by having steel carved away and drilled and be able to do ball and cap.  So I  may just get another one from Cabelas for $189.
2) in any event I'm considering getting  a Kris Konverter for the job (isn't that the most practical and realistic?)  

My questions are:

1) I have .38 Long Colt brass so I can reload.  
a. Can you do it with .38/357 Loading die? (I almost never have to trim .38 Spls I assume sam would go for .38LC being such low pressure)
b. can you use 158 gr lead bullets?  (Black Hills .38LC rounds come in 158 gr LRN)

2) is it easy for an average gunsmith to do an work to widen space for loading gate, lightning the action and adding the ejector rod?  

3)  does the conversion kit come with a raised front sight? (I noticed the .38 LC shoots a little high in a 1851 Navy)

4)  once done, is it easy to swap barrels (after getting another  ejector rod) if I wanted to slip on a Sheriffs lenght barrel?

All in all, this sounds like a great and fun endeavor.  (even kinda wonder if I could reload defense loads with 158 gr LHP bullets and slip a shorter barrel on as a novelty defense gun.....naaaaaa )  I figure this can be done at the same cost or  even less than what it would to take to buy a Uberti already made converstion  open top.  AND it could all be done through Fed Ex/UPS/USPS

[Fingers McGee]

.36 Cal percussion revolvers have a .375 diameter bore.  .38 special/.38 colt have a .357 diameter bore.  .38 cal bullets will rattle down the bore of a percussion gun unless you load heeled or hollow based bullets, or sleeve the barrel.

IMNSHO, you would have a lot less hassle and be better off in the long run purchasing a Man With No Name conversion or an Open Top chambered in .38.

as to your questions:

1.  Yes and Yes
2.  yes
3.  I don't believe so
4.  Yes; but the difference in bullet diameter vs bore diameter would still be there to deal with.

[Doug.38PR]

hmm...how did Wild Bill Hickock deal with this

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[swampman]

Thinking about converting my Pietta 1851 .36 Navy.  1) I'm not sure I want to do it to my current ball and cap because it was my first handgun of anykind and a gift from mom and dad.  Rather not take away from it by having steel carved away and drilled and be able to do ball and cap.  So I  may just get another one from Cabelas for $189.
2) in any event I'm considering getting  a Kris Konverter for the job (isn't that the most practical and realistic?)  

My questions are:

1) I have .38 Long Colt brass so I can reload.  
a. Can you do it with .38/357 Loading die? (I almost never have to trim .38 Spls I assume sam would go for .38LC being such low pressure)
b. can you use 158 gr lead bullets?  (Black Hills .38LC rounds come in 158 gr LRN)

2) is it easy for an average gunsmith to do an work to widen space for loading gate, lightning the action and adding the ejector rod?  

3)  does the conversion kit come with a raised front sight? (I noticed the .38 LC shoots a little high in a 1851 Navy)

4)  once done, is it easy to swap barrels (after getting another  ejector rod) if I wanted to slip on a Sheriffs lenght barrel?

All in all, this sounds like a great and fun endeavor.  (even kinda wonder if I could reload defense loads with 158 gr LHP bullets and slip a shorter barrel on as a novelty defense gun.....naaaaaa )  I figure this can be done at the same cost or  even less than what it would to take to buy a Uberti already made converstion  open top.  AND it could all be done through Fed Ex/UPS/USPS

I just converted a Uberti London Navy Using the Howell gated ring and cylinder and the Kirst ejector assembly. I did the metal work myself but sent it to Hoof Hearted to mount the conversion ring, tune the action, and rework the ejector rod. It still has the stock percussion barrel with the .375 bore and I'm using heeled 150gr, .376" bullets from Alpha Bravo Mfg. Hoof was also able to hook me up with a custom collet crimp die set up for heeled slugs. My brass is cut down .38Spec. I only shoot BP loads. I went with the Howell conversion because it is mechanically attached to the gun frame. I handled a few Kirst conversions and didn't care for the way the ring was able to move around. Having the ring semi-permanently installed wasn't an issue as I never intended it to be able to switch back and forth between C&B and cartridge. The Howell is also the only offering with the cylinder engraving and mine will be nickle-plated when completed, so the engraving will really stand out. I had a snub-nosed barrel left over from my reenacting days from a Uberti Navy that I cut down into a belly gun and I fitted it to the conversion. It's cut to three inches and shoots great. I'm looking for another barrel to cut into the Sheriff's length. It will get it's own ejector assembly. I want to build a custom box with compartments for the two shorter barrels. A lot of versatility having three barrel choices.

A similar build should be well withing your skills if you know a file from a Dremel tool. I cut my receiver and removed all the Italian markings in just a few evenings in front of the TV. I even polished the whole gun to about a 800grit just to get an idea what it will look like nickled. Loading the heeled rounds are no more difficult then regular rounds. Just the extra step for the collet crimp. I can't imagine shooting it with anything other then the Black. But then I'm a traditionalist. This one will be with me a long time.

[Slowhand Bob]

Not so sure I would worry about the legends, sometimes references to their guns gets a bit clouded by time.  There is a lot of evidence to suggest that the 36 Navies were not always his gun of choice.  I am sure others can give better info BUT I seem to remember reading that Wild Bill did have one or perhaps a pair of .44 Army Conversions.  If this is true, I do not know whether they would have been early Richards style or something later, 44Henry or something else???  A lot has been mentioned recently that suggested he even used a Dragoon to kill Tutt.   HMMM, perhaps it is time to look at the old books again! 

[Graveyard Jack]

If you're gonna buy a new gun anyway, I would strongly suggest just buying an 1851 Richards-Mason conversion. Uberti's are better guns in the first place and you won't have to fool with heeled bullets. The Kirst gated conversions are good but IMHO, the factory built guns are better. You'll probably be money ahead and it's an extra $125 to reline the barrel. It cost me almost $600 to have my Dragoon converted and that does not include the cost of the sixgun.

I do believe that Wild Bill had a pair of 1851 Richards-Mason conversions in his possession at the time of his death.

[Doug.38PR]

^ doesn't that kind of take the fun out of it though? 

[Doug.38PR]

Not so sure I would worry about the legends, sometimes references to their guns gets a bit clouded by time.  There is a lot of evidence to suggest that the 36 Navies were not always his gun of choice.  I am sure others can give better info BUT I seem to remember reading that Wild Bill did have one or perhaps a pair of .44 Army Conversions.  If this is true, I do not know whether they would have been early Richards style or something later, 44Henry or something else???  A lot has been mentioned recently that suggested he even used a Dragoon to kill Tutt.   HMMM, perhaps it is time to look at the old books again! 

I actually havean article in a CAS old west magazine (can't remember the name) from a month or so back that discusses in detail Hickock's .36 Navy that was converted to his specifications.  In my minds eye I recall it having a shorter barrel, a high front sight (looked like a brass needle sticking up on the front of the barrel) and loading gate and ejector rod with the ball and cap lever removed.   I think it had some polish to it (like engravings).  Looked real nice.  Had a brown leather holster with .38 Long Colt loops

[Graveyard Jack]

Not unless you 'want' to spend more money and mess around with heeled bullets. Building a gun is fun but you forget about that fun quickly when it's a bunch of trouble to actually use it. I use commercial cast bullets and have no desire to cast my own, or to have to go to a lot of trouble to use heeled bullets, IF you can find them. Don't kid yourself, it's gonna cost you quite a bit more than buying one. Like I said, it cost me almost $600 to have my Kirst converter installed, which was NOT a drop-in and required much fitting, plus an action job and a new front sight. And I didn't have the $150 expense of an ejector, special loading dies or $125 for relining the barrel. On top of the $350 the sixgun cost. It was worth it to me because I could not buy one otherwise. If I could've bought a factory-made 3rd Model Dragoon .45Colt, I would have.

[swampman]

Not unless you 'want' to spend more money and mess around with heeled bullets. Building a gun is fun but you forget about that fun quickly when it's a bunch of trouble to actually use it. I use commercial cast bullets and have no desire to cast my own, or to have to go to a lot of trouble to use heeled bullets, IF you can find them. Don't kid yourself, it's gonna cost you quite a bit more than buying one. Like I said, it cost me almost $600 to have my Kirst converter installed, which was NOT a drop-in and required much fitting, plus an action job and a new front sight. And I didn't have the $150 expense of an ejector, special loading dies or $125 for relining the barrel. On top of the $350 the sixgun cost. It was worth it to me because I could not buy one otherwise. If I could've bought a factory-made 3rd Model Dragoon .45Colt, I would have.

I reckon it all boils down to just how far you want to get into the shooting experience. I'm a former CW and WW2 reenactor, so I can get pretty immersed in my hobbies. I looked at the factory Uberti offerings but the idea of the modern bore size bothered me. I wanted the experience of outside-lubed, heeled ammo because that's all that was available in 1870's. And while my build doesn't follow Colt's methods 100%, I'm fine with it being a 'gunsmith' or 'blacksmith conversion'. It was a lot of effort and I probably spent more coin then I should have, it is very unique and everyone who handles or shoots it just loves it. I don't cast at the moment, but I have no problem finding heeled bullets. I'm getting them for $8/100 plus shipping. (The same supplier also has heeled .44Colt slugs for $10/100.) I can't make them myself for that. I find loading heeled rounds to be no different then modern rounds. Just one extra step for the crimping stage. When I lay the sights on target and touch it off to the smell, sound, and sight of BP, knowing that I just fired as close to the original round design as possible, it's all worth every penny. It's shooting something you created(most of it anyways). It felt a little scary taking that brand new Navy out of the oiled wrapping and making the first cut on it. But as I moved along, I could see it taking shape and I knew I was on to something good.

[Graveyard Jack]

I can understand and respect that point of view, very much so. I reckon it just depends on how deep you want to get into it. For I see the use of modern inside lubed bullets as a huge convenience and I like to do a lot of shooting, less messing around. It is good that we have so many options because even though we may like to do the same things, we might want to do them different ways.

Where are you getting your heeled bullets from?

[Doug.38PR]

from my experience shooting my drop in cylinder for my ball and cap navy, .357 bullets don't do too bad in that .375 bore.  Occasionally I think one of them may tumble, but they all hit the paper and do pretty good groupings.  In my situation though, because the sight is so low, they all shoot kind  of high (but consistant)

So while heeled bullets may be better, for just casual shooting the .38 LC in 158 gr lead should do fine (again, from my limited experience)

[Graveyard Jack]

You can always load .375" round balls in your .38Colt cases. Of course, it would have to be over a caseful of powder.

[swampman]

I can understand and respect that point of view, very much so. I reckon it just depends on how deep you want to get into it. For I see the use of modern inside lubed bullets as a huge convenience and I like to do a lot of shooting, less messing around. It is good that we have so many options because even though we may like to do the same things, we might want to do them different ways.

Where are you getting your heeled bullets from?

   http://www.alphabravobullets.com/products/shop.php?exp=&cat=4


Hoof Hearted turned me on to them. I run them as cast with SPG lube.

[Doug.38PR]

how' bout this:

For my current Pietta Navy:

1) buy a .38 LC Barrel and ejector rod only for the Pietta Richards-Mason (or Uberti if it fits pietta)

2) buy Kris Converter cylinder and gate

3) shave down pietta gunfor loading gate clearance

4) break down pietta gun and loosen mainspring screw to  lighten action and/or putting a washer(s) in between screw and spring to lighten


This way, I can go to and from cartridge and ball and cap by swapping barrel, cylinder, loading gate out, tightening mainspring.  And would have appropriate barrel

[Abilene]

how' bout this:

For my current Pietta Navy:

1) buy a .38 LC Barrel and ejector rod only for the Pietta Richards-Mason (or Uberti if it fits pietta)....

Pietta doesn't make any conversions and an Uberti conversion barrel will not fit the Pietta.  If you want to go this route you will need to buy a Pietta percussion barrel and have it lined and ejector added.  Add a Kirst cylinder and all this adds up to a fair amount of $$.   Unless, as mentioned above, you just really wanna "do it yourself" plus keep the percussion capabilities, you would be financially better off to keep the Pietta as-is and buy an Uberti conversion (which will be made of better steel than the percussion gun as well).

[MJN77]

I'll add my $ .02. If you want a 51 navy conversion I think you would be better off getting the Uberti R/M 51. It will cost quite a bit less than converting one. I have one and think it's great.

But if you're set on making your own conversion, go for it. Have fun with it. Just know it will cost $300-$600 more than a "factory" conversion.

[Graveyard Jack]

Pietta doesn't make cartridge conversions. Parts don't usually interchange between Pietta's and Uberti's anyway. If you can even get them. Numrich lists a Uberti `51 percussion barrel at $134 but none for the conversion. By the time you bought all the parts you could've bought a Uberti 1851 Richards-Mason conversion. It's $290 for the Kirst gated conversion plus $125 for the ejector. So if a conversion barrel could be procured and would actually fit, you're looking at $549 just in parts.

These were never meant to be convertibles.  

IMHO, if you want to be able to shoot authentic loads with heeled bullets and want that added complexity, buy another to have converted. I would suggest a full-on conversion with ejector and new front sight and forget about swapping back and forth. Being aware, of course, that it will be a much more expensive undertaking.

If you want to be able to shoot modern .358" inside lubed bullets, just buy the Uberti Richards-Mason.

[MJN77]

Best place for parts is http://www.vtigunparts.com/ . FWIW, Uberti R/M barrels do not fit the percussion revolvers. Uberti or Pietta, and parts are not interchangeable between the two brands.

[rifle]

Doug 38,
I'm not sure about the "Pietta" 38LC barrel. I don't think Pietta Makes a Richards Mason revolver like Uberti does. Maybe it's something new at Pietta.
Anyway a Uberti barrel most likely couldn't be made to fit a Pietta Navy properly. If you wanted a barrel for the standard SAMMI 38's you'd just get a regular percussion barrel sleeved for the SAMMI 38 bullets. Use that for the Kirst Konversion.
When switching back to persussion just swap cylinders and barrels and go to shootin cap&ball.
Havin the gun be able to switch hit from percussion to cartridge I believe is one of the best selling poinjts to the Kirst since it simply swaps back and forth.....or so it would seem anyway.
The R&D conversion with the gate can swap back and forth as easily as the Kirst with the little extra work of removing two screws that hold the conversion plate to the guns frame.
You might want to inquire at the manufactures about any modifications that may need done on the hammers for the conversions.
You'd want the hammer nose to be fit properly to strike the firing pins properly without beating the pins and the conversiojn plates to death.
The hammer nose should strike the firing pin moving it forward just enough to ignite the primer and then "stop" against the frame before trying to push the firing pin too far or before the hammer nose hits the conversion plate. Therfore there may be a percussion hammer and a cartridge conversion hammer to swap back and forth.
As far as lightening the main springs.......Pietta seems to have light enough springs and I'd ,personally, leave the spring alone. The main spring,unless you want to swap them too, needs to be able to ignite the percussion caps(needs to be a little stiffer than for cartridge to reduce the "blow back") and then be able to pop the caps  on the cartridges too. The springs for the Pietta Navy seems to be light enough to do both right out of the box. If anything you might want to find a stiffer spring for the cap&ballerr mode.
I should add that it's been in articles in gun magazine ect.ect. that "hollow based bullets" do fine and are accurate in the percussion type bores. That means leave the barrel alone and use the percussion barrel for both the cartridge with the hollow based bullets and the percussion mode with the round balls. No need for an extra barrel unless that's what you would prefer.
Of course I think that the hollow based bullets would perform best with the use of the black powder and not as well with the smokeless powder due to.....the black powder expands the hollow bases much better. Black being an explosive and smokeless being a flammable. Smokeless isn't known as being the best for obtuating(bumping up to groove diameter) lead like the black powder.
All in all I'd opt for the Uberti converted Richards Mason gun since the Kirst parts are a little too inflated in price and there's some "doing" to get the cylinders fit and possibly work to a hammer and the cut out for the loading channel. The Uberti is made the most like a real Richards Mason the way the arbor holds the conversion plate in place.
I ain't sayin a Kist isn't a good thing to buy and play with but....you'd have to be at least a "Kitchen Table Gunsmith" enough to know the old Colts and how they are made to be their best. It's all in the price of the conversion parts compared to the factory made conversion makin for a simple decision of what to buy if you ain't a "Kitchen Table Gunsmith" by trade. Believe me it's a trade if you delve into it. What's that saying,"easier said than done"?