Uberti R&M muzzle clean up?

[John William McCandles]

Both my earlier import 1860 R&Ms look as if the barrel was just cut off, no crown. One shoots fairly good and the worst one which looks to have a burr in the muzzle shoots all over the place. Looking at the later import version that Sierra Sue shoots the muzzles are like night and day as far as finish is concerned.
I have read a few post concerning muzzle clean up and see that a carriage bolt can be used with fine grit sand paper. I am guessing the head of the carriage bolt head crown should just fit inside the muzzle.
If this procedure will not clean up the burr what would my next option be? And can I do it myself or should a gunsmith be sought out?
Thanks
JW

[rifle]

The crown of the muzzle has to be perfectly concentric with the centerline of the bore. The slightest off-kilter can mess up the accuracy or at least the consistancy of the accuracy.
People use carraige bolts  for lapping muzzles but.....NOT ME. I know better. The crown/muzzle face  is too important to do a hit or miss with it's concentricity.
The only proper way to do that muzzle job is with a lathe set-up or the PILOTED REAMER tool. With the piloted reamer a perfect job is easy to attain if you know that the pilot has to be a perfect fit into/onto the lands of the rifling.
If you don't want to buy the reamer and pilot and.....have an over size pilot turned on a lathe to perfectly fit your barrel ....you should find a gunsmith that will correctly do the job. You'd want to insist that if the piloted reamer is used that a pilot will be turned to perfectly fit your barrel. If the pilot has any loose to it at all the reamer/cutter/muzzle chamfer tool will cut chatter into the surface and then the gunsmith usually sand papers the end of the muzzle with a file or just uses a file to get rid of the chatter marks. Doin that can negate what the perfect fit pilot would have done. In other words the muzzle chamfer/reamer/cutter used properly with a perfectly fit pilot will give a perfectly smooth surface concentric with the bore. That's what you want with a flat face muzzle or with a smooth "crown" done with a angled chamfer tool made for crowns. The crown is the best thing to get if the rifling grooves are all perfectly uniform in depth. The crown sets the end of the rifling lands "inside" the muzzle so the end of the lands can't be nicked on anything. If the rifling grooves aren't all uniform in depth the flat face muzzleis best to have. The gunsmith should check the rifling depths. The rifling depths being not uniform with a crown lets the gases erupt from the shallow grooves before the gas erupts from the deeper grooves and that can set the bullet to yawing just as much as a bad crown. Therefore in the case of the non-uniform rifling depths  the flat faced off muzzle would be the best because with the flat face off (if the bullet gets to the bottom of all the grooves regardless of their depth) lets the gases erupt from the grooves at the muzzle all simultaneously. That keeps the accuracy better. So a gun barrel with non-uniform rifling depths can be made to shoot well by getting the bullets sized (or use softer lead bullets sized .002 over the groove diameter of the barrel)so that they get to the bottom of all the rifling grooves and there is a flat face to the muzzle. No crown to the non-uniform rifling depths barrels.
Anywhoooo.....don't try the carraige bolt lapp to the end of the barrel since the chances of getting the crown perfectly concentric to the centerline of the bore is dismall.

[Pettifogger]

If you are shooting bench rest the procedure described is the way to go.  However, you are shooting an RM and it isn't a target gun.  After I shorten a barrel on a C&B or conversion I square the end with a muzzle cutter and then stone the end of the barrel smooth and then use a hone to polish it.  After it is nice and flat and shiney, I take a fine grit 45 degree stone and chuck it in a drill and then put it into the muzzle (which is facing up) with some cutting oil and let the weight of the drill push the stone down and give the trigger a couple of short pulls.  All I am trying to do is remove the burrs from the end of the rifling.  I've done hundreds like this and there has never been a problem with accuracy.  Again, if you are building a bench rest rifle or some other gun where you have to wring all the accuracy possible out of the gun you might want to do something else.  Here's a video from Midway showing what you asked about.

http://www.midwayusa.com/General.mvc/Index/VideoLibrary

I just checked.  The link just takes you to the main index.  Go up to the corner and just type in "muzzle crowning."  When the selections come up pick the one that is 1:51 seconds long.  It shows exactly what you are asking about.

Found a direct link.

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[John William McCandles]

If you are shooting bench rest the procedure described is the way to go.  However, you are shooting an RM and it isn't a target gun.  After I shorten a barrel on a C&B or conversion I square the end with a muzzle cutter and then stone the end of the barrel smooth and then use a hone to polish it.  After it is nice and flat and shiney, I take a fine grit 45 degree stone and chuck it in a drill and then put it into the muzzle (which is facing up) with some cutting oil and let the weight of the drill push the stone down and give the trigger a couple of short pulls.  All I am trying to do is remove the burrs from the end of the rifling.  I've done hundreds like this and there has never been a problem with accuracy.  Again, if you are building a bench rest rifle or some other gun where you have to wring all the accuracy possible out of the gun you might want to do something else.  Here's a video from Midway showing what you asked about.

http://www.midwayusa.com/General.mvc/Index/VideoLibrary

I just checked.  The link just takes you to the main index.  Go up to the corner and just type in "muzzle crowning."  When the selections come up pick the one that is 1:51 seconds long.  It shows exactly what you are asking about.

Found a direct link.

Pettifogger; Thanks for the info. The muzzle is as it came from Uberti when I bought it 10 or so years ago, just never paid much mind to it until I started shooting live ammo. With blanks it don't really matter much.

JW

[rifle]

Thanks fer the compliment Pettifogger.    Yer alright.
I'd kinda like to know where the "burr" actually is on Williams barrel? On the leading edge of a land? On the leading edge of the groove? On the side edge of a land? Somewhere in between? It would make a difference as to whether or not the "carraige bolt" face could get to it. The carraige bolt and sand paper would get the leading edge of the lands. It would make a difference if the burr were caused by a "hit" to the end of the barrel that caused some metal to peen away from the hit and cause a burr.
William.....at the very least I'd recommend you send the barrel off to Pettifogger or Raven or one of the other gunsmiths hangin out here. Yer gun's barrel is worth the trouble (they cost $150 or more ifin you can find one) and it is nice when they shoot good. If the burr is right on the leading edge of a land you could get to it with the "carraige bolt and sandpaper". If not then you may want to get a set of "or just one that would fit" needle files in "fine".
that's if you're intent on doing the burr yerself.

[John William McCandles]

Thanks fer the compliment Pettifogger.    Yer alright.
I'd kinda like to know where the "burr" actually is on Williams barrel? On the leading edge of a land? On the leading edge of the groove? On the side edge of a land? Somewhere in between? It would make a difference as to whether or not the "carraige bolt" face could get to it. The carraige bolt and sand paper would get the leading edge of the lands. It would make a difference if the burr were caused by a "hit" to the end of the barrel that caused some metal to peen away from the hit and cause a burr.
William.....at the very least I'd recommend you send the barrel off to Pettifogger or Raven or one of the other gunsmiths hangin out here. Yer gun's barrel is worth the trouble (they cost $150 or more ifin you can find one) and it is nice when they shoot good. If the burr is right on the leading edge of a land you could get to it with the "carraige bolt and sandpaper". If not then you may want to get a set of "or just one that would fit" needle files in "fine".
that's if you're intent on doing the burr yerself.

Rifle, thanks for the info. The slight burr is at the end where I can get to it. I am ordering a face cutter set from Brownells and getting a 45* fine stone as Pettifogger suggested.
The barrel looks as if Uberti just cut if off and did not finish it, no chamfering or lapping at all. These are some of the first that were imported by Cimarron when Uberti started making them so the barrels from the newer imports don't fit Might with some work but they are not a direct put on.

JW

[rifle]

Good for you William. Yer own muzzle chamfer set! Just remember the pilot has to be a perfectly snug fit to stay away from chatter. They sell individual pilots and the brass ones are handy and easier to turn(you can size an oversize down to fit the indivual gun barrel) to get the snug fit. The pilots they give with the sets are a little loose so order at least one spare that's oversize fer your caliber. You can wrap them ,without overlapping, with shimstock.
If you use the stone...get the hardest one they have. The edge of the steel lands eat stones fer breakfast. Maybe get two stones or the steel cherry burrs. I can look it up in MSC machine shop supply and get you a number. I'm not talking about those cheapy cherry burrs that tear things up but.....talking about an actual cherry that has sharp cutter edges machined and cuts steel like butter You can carefully turn those by hand and get good results. Better than a stone unless the stone is to be used VERY LIGHTLY. You can turn the stones by hand too ifin yer careful. Work slow and gentle.
Yer a Gentleman and a Scholar......ask the questions.....get some info.......have the character to forge ahead. You'll be able to help other Hombres with yer Brownells tool and knowledge gained from the experience. 

[John William McCandles]

Rifle; Thanks for the kind words. I'm not afeared of trying new things, that's how a person learns. I had to go a round about way on the cutter set, they were out of stock on the .44 cal sets so I ended up ordering a .375 set and an extra .44 pilot. I am planning a '61 Colt's Navy conversion project with a 3 1/2" barrel so the .375 should work with it when I cut the barrel. I plan on having Raven line the barrel after I get it shortened.
Please send the MSC catalog numbers for the cherry burrs and stone when you have time. As I have and account with MSC.
JW

[rifle]

I found the "cherry" under sec. five where the files are. The 2011-2012 book the TIN coated carbide "doublecut burrs" page 1056 and the 1/2 inch diameter cherry number is 01400845, It's the "ball" type. These are cool tools. The double cut is the magic. Some people including some gunsmiths can carefully do a crown on a muzzle "by hand" and get a pro lookin smooth cut. Use oil with em.
The 3/8ths one is handy too.
A former full time muzzleloader rifle builder I knew did his crowns to the muzzles with these ball burrs.

[John William McCandles]

I thank you sir.

JW

[rifle]

I should put a word of caution about the double cut burrs. I'd gently try it out by hand right off the bat instead of chucking it in a drill(if you were thinking in those terms) like a person may do with a stone. They are "sharp" when new. The weight of a drill may make it really cut quick and too deep.
That 375 muzzle cutter..........I'd change the order to a bigger one. I can measure or check the book from Brownells......get the big one so you can flat face any barrel even rifle. The big one does it all. They sell them separate like you got the 44 pilot separate from the kit. The smaller 375 (if that is the diameter) be small and leave ,sort of, like a rebated muzzle area instead of facing the whole face.
Like I said earlier.....the pilots run small.....maybe you'd rather get a 45 pilot and run it ,carefully, on a drill and file it to be just the right size for 44......unless you have shim stock that's real thin to wrap the pilot for a snug fit. I use copper or brass shim since in can engrave the rifling a tad when trying to insert the pilot wrapped in shimstock. Your burr may impede the insertion of the pilot. You may have to clear the way for the pilot and then face the muzzle then ever so slightly touch the end of the lands with the cherry or....get a 45 degree cutter and just put a nice little concentric crown to the muzzle.
If they(in the small print under the description) give an actuall diameter ,instead of the less accurate or vague caliber designation, you could see if the pilot would fit. Ifn you call and ask they would have a tech support measure the pilot so you could see if it would fit snug in your "bore" riding the lands. When you put the pilot in you'd "wiggle" it to see that there is no movement what so ever side to side.

[John William McCandles]

Received the muzzle cutters from Brownells yesterday and cleaned the muzzles up. They look much better, can't say as it will help my shooting but it shouldn't hurt. Just have to do my part.
Thanks for the help.
JW