Action Anomaly

[rifle]

Working on a Paterson revolver.......
Testing the action........
Everytime the hammer is dropped(chainfire safe action) the cylinder advanced a small amount so the hammer hit the edge of the nipple recess.
The cylinder moved quickly as the hammer fell.
The gun did this when the wedge was tightened a tiny hair from where it is already fairly well seated. If the wedge was realxed a hair the gun ,or rather the cylinder, did not advance when the hammer was fallng.
The bolt would be in the cylinder notch hole well seated when the hammer was drawn back.....I checked before pulling the trigger.
The nipple recess was centered on the hammer recess so the hammer didn't hit anything before the cylinder advanced.
The hand was not applying pressure to the cylinder at full cock. There was a small amount of slack between the hand and the ratchet tooth on the toothed rack(as the parts people call that part).
For the cylinder tomove as the hammer fell the bolt would have to have been retracted ut the bolt was working fine.
The only time this anomaly happened was when the wedge was tapped in a hair more than where it would be normally tight enough.
Seems paranormal to me.
Just goes to show it's a good idea to remove the nipples (if the gun isn't made to be dry fire safe) and drop the hammer testing an action job to be sure things are working right. Or at least bust some caps while testing.
Anywhooooo....... any thoughts about this?
Another Anywhooo.........I've never heard of anyone using Paterson revolvers as main match guns. How about you?
I's say.....the round hole cylinder notches with no lead-in would make for an ineffective match gun. Putting a slight slant to the bolt head (like the Remingtons with no lead-in to the cylinder notch) wouldn't effectively remedy the "no lead-in" with the round bolt head and round cylinder index notches. You know....the no lead-in making for a cylinder that would over rotate when worked very fast.
I thunk if the cylinder notch round holes were squared the over rotate problem could be taken care of even leaving the bolt head round. In that case the slant to the top of the bolt head would work as a remedy to the "no lead-in" thing.

[Coffinmaker]

I can think of no mechanically sound reason for the anomaly.  Poltergeist or perhaps Gremlins do come to mind.  Good Luck.

I can not think of a good reason to try ad modify a Patterson for CAS, except for style.  For style, just shoot slow and grin a lot.  Pietta are the only ones making Pattersons now, and I don't really know what the availability is.  With all that needs to be done to make a Patterson run for CAS, why bother.  Just take a three minute egg timer with you to the match

Coffinmaker

[Professor Marvel]

Greetings Rifle!

It is a pleasure to see yoou posting again!

Your dilemma is quite a puzzle - and oddly enough I am having a similar issue on a single chamber of a brass project 1860 ...
bolt locks up nicely in the notch, everything appears fine, but when the hammer releases the cylinder advances just as you describe... perhaps high speed photography would reveal a tiny gremlin messing with the works.

yhs
prof marvel

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[rifle]

I can thunk up only one scenario besides "the devil" tormenting me again.
It would have to be a two pronged attack on the action.
The first would be a hand slightly long.
The second would be a wear to the bottom of the bolt leg (that gets back on top the hammers cam as the hammer falls) with a rounded edge worn on the top edge of the cam.
That would be that somewhat hard to diagnose thing where the spring tension of the bolt legs coupled with a worn rounded bottom edge to the bolt leg and rounded top edge to the cam and.......as the hammer falls and the bolt leg gets closer to the top of the cam the two worn rounded edges give the spring tension of the bolt legs a "slip like a wet bar of soap" when the bolt is almost to the top of the cam. That lets the bolt leg slip up(spring up) and get ahead of the timing by moving all on it's own power upwards to get on top the cam. That lets the bolt retract some just as or just before the hammer hits pay dirt(firing pin). That lets the gun come out of battery or get a loose "battery" just as the gun fires. It can mess with the accuracy if the cylinder moves any as the gun fires. Weird scenario. The bolt retracts some(as the cam end of the bolt moves up to get on top the cam the other end in the cylinder notch moves down out of the notch some) just as the gun fires messing with the aligment of the chambers to the bore.
It's a little difficult to see if the bolt leg moves itself from spring tension and the rounded bottom edge on it and the rounded top edge of the cam. It can be seen if the guns action is worked real slow and the eye is trained on the bolt. Letting the hammer down really slow and watching from the bottom inside or the top with the cylinder out can show it. From the top it's seen when the bolt retracts some just as the hammer hits the firing pin or percussion cap. The bolt shouldn't move at all at this time in the action sequence.
Anywhooooo.....if the gun had that and........the hand was a little long........and the cylinder moved easily as in where it's worn in or polished smooth so when the hand rakes down across the ratchet tooth behind the cylinder and the tension of the hand spring lets the hand move the cylinder like the "slippery bar of soap thing", as the hand snaps under the next up ratchet tooth.......the Gremlin has been awakened and the cylinder can move seemingly on it's own power with a will of it's own. That's hard to explain.
Anywhooooo....again.....I reason that with the wedge tapped in that tiny bit extra the cylinder gap is just a tad less and lets the hand spring tension get into the act. An act of vengence against all mankind and ......especially the gun slinger.
I'd reason or advise a person with that problem to shave a hair off the hand or (in the case of the cap&baller Colts or any open frame Colt) open the cylinder gap a hair or .........get right to the problem that could be one ratchet tooth milled a little off compared to the others letting the "weird thing" happen.
Anywhooooo.......I'd have to run this by some professional type Gunsmith(maybe one hangin round here) to see if I could be correct or just danged arse crazy.
Just goes to show,as in my case, that once you think you've seen it all the "Devil" will throw another weird one at ya and watch ya sqirm like a worm on a hot plate. 
As far as using a Paterson or set of Patersons for main match guns.....with only five shots would it be allowed? As far as gettin a Paterson to "shoot fast" I'd say all that would need improved would be to square the round cylinder notches(same holds for a Dragoon First or Second model and why I chose the Third Model Dragoon with the updated cylinder notches and bolt) and slant the top of the bolt head. A Patersons springs ,like the hand spring and the bolt/trigger spring ,are wide and thin with good "springy" and the way they lay in the gun are less likely to break like the later 1851 Navy Colt or the 1860 Army Colt.
One other thing that might need improved would be the bolt screw. It could use a thicker one with a head on it to be more stable in the gun. Paterson ergonomics would be good only for a two handed hold and not the duelist type hold. The duelist hold would be hard to get to the trigger.

[Raven]

Check the bolt leg tension, and any rubing between the trigger and bolt leg. Also make sure there is tension on the hand spring and the hand is in contact with the tooth of the ratchet. Check to see that the hand is not long.
When the trigger is pulld at full cock the Bolt should stay locked. If it is being pulled down (unlocked) there is some interference between the bolt, trigger, and cam.
It's a hard one to explain, but we do see this problem occasionaly. focus on the bolt leg. The Paterson is a hard one because it's difficult to watch the moving parts while it's partialy assembled.

Raven

[rifle]

Thanks for the imput Raven.
At least you didn't just tell me I'm danged arse crazy.   
I'm remembering past guns I've fixed by typin this stuff out. Memory gettin a little slippage to it. I've seen this problem before.
I did make a longer hand but there's a little play to the cylinder at full cock so the hand isn't puttin force on the cylinders ratchet tooth at full draw. Even if it were the tension would be let "off" when the hammer started down.
None of the parts are rough cuz I smoothed them so I find no friction or interference between them.Only where the springs are supposed to have interference or privide friction. When the cam goes down backover the bolt leg there's got tension but that would make the other side of the teeter tooter go up(bolt head) in place better.
If I try more fix it I guess I'll try less hand or new cam or new bolt....no wait.....the new bolt put in is where the problem started.
Of course I longer-ed the hand for timing too. I checked the cam top edge and it's got some very slight wear.
The Paterson springs are good ones with some good springy but not over springed.
I've been here before but never quite like this.
I'd fix it with a tighter hole in the bolt so it wouldn't slop sideways as much and check the top edge of the cam and get rid of any undo rounded-ness to the edge and take some rounded off the bolt leg that contacts the rounded of the cam top edge and it would go away(the weird thing).
When shootin a gun and gettin the weird thing I'd first off thunk it was blow-back.
The cylinder moving in such a positive way is quite a baffling thing.It moves only a tad enough for the hammer to strike the edge of the nipple recess.
I've never seen this weird thing workin so well.
NOW.....I tried the action just now......I can't get the gun to do it anymore.  Maybe what I did done is breakin in? Thing is....if I didn't thunk it out and positively fix it.....I reason it could act up again at anytime...like when the guns being shot so....it would end up on the bench AGAIN.......and I'd be feelin like the fool.
I am gettin older and it seems ,with my impaired perception I could reason, I ain't workin on all six cylinders all the time. Lest ways is which-is-why my wife and my little hound dogs loves me all the more. I'm easier goin and usually am going more than comin sos I ain't in the way all the time. ......steppin on the dogs layin in the house or tryin to pet the wife's head instead of the dogs.
I have to give you a call about that barrel sleeve. Ikeepfergittin.

[Raven]

Rifle,

No matter how long you do this you get "head scratchers" As we get older we get to blame more of them on age

Raven

[rifle]

I'm gettin to the point I have to relearn some things and then the head scratchers pop up to keep me brain exercised.
I got fancy and improved the cylinder on the Patterson. The round cylinder notches and the round bolt head(if that is what you could call the shape of the bolt head on the part I bought from one of the illustrious parts suppliers) caused some over rotation when testing the gun pulling the hammer as fast as I could. About one in fifty or something like that it over rotated. Naturally the way a Paterson is made one could assertain the round cylinder notches and the round bolt head thing was an inferior design for a revolver.
Used normally even pulled fast like one would do if in a hurry to get a shot off the gun worked fine. It was the "as fast as I could pull the hammer" that made for a hard hit on the notch and the bolt head and the sligthtly lightened bolt spring. The lightened bolt spring is needed on this gun since the bolt head on the defective part I obtained (easier than makin my own bolt which I should have done) was smaller in size than specs call for. Smaller fore and aft but ,thankfully, not side to side.
Anywhooooo......I got the idea to file little ramps/lead-ins so the bolt head would always get up higher than the edge of the cylinder notch and can't over rotate. I filed them in which took a pretty long time gettin them all really close to the same width and length and depth and all.
I made them a little long and thin since I thought it looked cool and gave a way to get rid of scars from mis-timed scenarios in the past 25 or more years of hard use.
Anywhoooooo.......it looks fine the way it is and can't be made to over rotate no matter how fast I work the action which is dry fire safe. If there were enough holes in the cylinder it could be used for CowBoy Shootin.

I still have an issue and that's the peck marks that get on the cylinder from even a light bolt hit to the steel. Just freakin maddening.
The steel of these Italian cap&ballers is just too soft for a cylinder. I'm thunkin of some sort of softer material to afix to the bolts head to remedy that scars from the bolt thing. Nylon or sumpthin.

[Thumper]

Rifle, how about a dab of silver solder? That should be softer than steel but hold up pretty well.

[rifle]

Thumper that could be the answer to that problem. I thought of solder but not silver but 60/40 lead tin acid flux core type. It's hard but probably not hard enough.
Can I borrow your acetelene torch outfit neighbor?

[Professor Marvel]

Thumper that could be the answer to that problem. I thought of solder but not silver but 60/40 lead tin acid flux core type. It's hard but probably not hard enough.
Can I borrow your acetelene torch outfit neighbor?

Ah My Good Rifle -
I have had excellent results with a simple hardware store MAPP torch if using the "medium" melt silver solders, which are still quite hard.

yhs
prof marvel

[rifle]

Prof Marvel, you are a Gentleman and a scholar (as are so many here .....even Thumper "The Blacksmith" in his own way) and I thanks ya kindly fer the reminder about the MAPP tourch.
"The bolt in a Colt" is a spring and heat can mess it up. I'd have to keep the heat from traveling too far into the body under the bolt head. Brownells sells that "Heat Sink" stuff that supposedly stops heat from traveling. I guess I could clamp some thick flat steel bars to each side of the body below the bolt head.
I wonder if that much heat had to be used if I'd end up heatin to black cherry the bolt and quenching it and then re-tempering it to get back to "springy".
Maybe braise with brass on the bolt head. Wonder if that would be too hard and still "peck" the cylinder?
I guess I could delve into this "softer than steel bolt head cap" and see where it would lead. Ifin it was a viable solution to the "pecked by the bolt soft steel cylinder" that is prevelent with the "cap&ballers" and even some cartridge guns it would be helpful to gunsmiths and cap&ball shooters. The soft steel cylinders the cap&ballers have is a bain to "The Kitchen Table Gunsmith" and ,I imagine, even the Pro and Pre-fessionals.
I mean.....what is a gun-fixer ,of any grade, supposed to do with a steel cylinder on a revolver that seems like it's made from "leadloy steel alloy?
I've wondered for years if it's possible or "a good idea" to harden and temper a cylinder on a cap&baller revolver?
I imagine they aren't hardened or tempered at all really.
There used to be a company that did hardening of steel that advertised a service to harden all the major parts of a cap&baller revolver. Of course they supposedly knew what they were doing. Without knowing what steel is used in a cap&baller cylinder or barrel I don't know where they would approach the proceedure.
I've thought of "Kasinet" hardening a cylinder and then re-tempering it so the surface could be hardened by the carbon.
I know one thing.....considering this overly soft steel cylinder problem.....someone making new ordanance grade steel cylinders for cap&ballers could be profitable ifin someone set up to do it fast and economical so people could afford them. Like the CNC type jobber.
Wonder what W.Kirst and Ravens Roost Gun Shop would thunk of that idea?
One standard thing I do right off the bat after takin a Pietta cap&baller out of the box is to take it apart...shorten the bolt leg to get the bolt from hitting right on the edge of the cylinder notch and loosening the bolt spring screw a half turn. That stops the cylinder damage that starts with the very first pulls of the hammers on those guns.
A new gun.....play with the action a few times....look at the gun.....see heart breaking peens to the cylinder notches. The rougher they get the rougher the action works from the bolt moving over it's own damqge.
O course I can't fergit to add the other thing that needs done with those guns .......is to get the bolt leg closer to the hammers cam so the bolt can get ahead some in the timing and not be in the cylinder notch when the hand gets to turning the cylinder. The bolt making another ramp on the wrong side of the cylinder notch from broaching it's way clear while hanging the action up ( sometimes actually stopping the action from working) is not an attractive modification at all.
At least the Remingtons can be made(if they aren't comin out of the box that way) to not have the bolt "snap into the cylinder" but return to contact with the cylinder gently and controled with out the snap by mechanically always being controlled by the hammers cam. I thunk that's how the Remingtons should work. It's a nice feature. You don't have or hear the snap of the bolt hitting back in contact with the cylinder but....you don't have peckin peens all over the cylinder either.
The Colts hammer cam doesn't control the bolt since the bolt leaves contact with the hammer cam as the bolt leg goes down. The Remington bolt leg is in contact with the hammer cam on the way up and on the way down.