Black Powder Loads for 38 Colt and 44 Colt

[Mike]

I have a 2 Uberti Open Tops one in 38 Colt and one 45 Schofield I am looking for loads in Black Powder. I have also a Uberti Richards Conversion in 44 Colt that I need to work a load for.

I have 158grn heads for the 38, 205 and 214grn for the 44 and 250 for the 45 but may use 200grns.

Powder's I can get is Goex and Swis and have in stock 3FFF in the Goex and 1 1/2 in the Swiss.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Just load enough FFFg in either case to allow 1/16" to 1/8" compression when the bullet is seated.  Use a blackpowder compatible lube, and avoid using heavy petroleum products with your firearms.

Examples of recommended lubes are SPG or Lyman BP Gold.  If your "heads" are lubed for smokeless, you might have to replace it, or use a lube cookie or pill underneath.  Advice on how to do it can be found using the search function.

My "WAG" is about 17-18 grains in the .38LC and less than 25 in the Schofield & a bit less in the .44 Colt.

[Mike]

Sir Charles.

Thanks for that, I over lub the end of the cylinder (yes cartridge gun) with a natural lube or SPG and can shoot all morning with out a major clean except a wipe with a cloth.

The loads sound good, I have loaded 25grn in the 44 case but will load some more with a bit less and see what happens.
The 38 Sp loads with 18-21 grans fall short at 50m once passing through the target at 25m with both 125 and 158grns bullets. As we shoot on a range with 50m back stop I stoped shooting the BP loads on that range.

Thanks

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[Crow Choker]

Howdy Mike! Can't help ya with the 38 or 45, but I've been shooting 44 Colt loaded with BP for 4-5 yrs now. Fire em in Uberti Open Top and Richards II. Love the guns and caliber. I had the same questions when I started with the caliber-what powder, how much, what lube, bullets. Got answered by reading this web (CAS), reading magazines, books, and input from a long time shooting pard. Check out some of Fox Creek Kids, Mako's, Bottom Dealin Mikes, and others posts. Also Bot Delin' Mikes mag articles in Guns of the Old West.
 Bullets---I stated out castin and loading a Lee 200 grain (still use it), then switched over to a Mav Dutchman big lube (200 g). For powder--- I always used Goex FFF in my cap and balls and used it also in my 44 loads. Fox Creek and other wrote of the advantages of using FF. Less peak pressure, slower burning, easier on the gun, etc. I use Goex FF for all my cartridge loading now. Other brands will work to, but they for the most part are more $$. Primers--the rule I first heard was always use mag primers for a hotter ignition. Read a number of posts and mag articles that regular ones did the trick. Use mags some, but have had excellant results from standard Winchestor large primers. Lube--- I've used Dicks Pearl lube and SPG both with equal and excellant results, just stay away from the petroleum based ones. As to how much powder, I've seen posts and articles all the way from 22 grains, up to 28. Most of what I saw from long time shooters/loaders was in the 25 grain range.
 I played around with loading 25 rds of 44 Colt using a variety of components ( I love to load em as much as I do shootin, no chore thar for me!). Loaded each 25 rds with both Lee and Mav Big Lubes, used both CCI Mag primers and Winchest large pistol, and used both Goex FF and FFF powder. Loaded each batch starting at I believe it was 24 grains, then added a 1/2 grain (24.5), then 25.0, 25.5, 26.0, etc up to 28.0 grains. A shooting pard asked me if I thought a 1/2 grain would make all that difference, I said probably not, but did it anyway-(can be if your loading smokless). I found and have settled on a load of 25.0 grains of Goex FF (a load that Fox Creek Kid had mentioned in one of his posts). I use either the CCI or Win large primers, using either of the bullets I previously mentioned. Still use the CCI's just to use them up, saw no advantage to them. Note- I don't have or use anything to record and measure fps, pressure (a/k/a a chronograph), etc, just good ol' frontier results. 
With the 25.0 you have the compression Sir Charles mentioned, good accuracy for short range and beyond, it's not a marshmellow load, nor a 'big boomer'. Always figured those that load for 'shock an awe' have forgotten that the purpose of shooting is to hit what your aiming at with a chunk of lead, not see how much smoke and fire ya can produce. Don't get me wrong, I love the 'smell of black powder smoke', the boom, and all that goes with it, but if all I'm tryin' to do is intimidate and impress others with 'shock and awe', I'll just go to shooting a cannon. Hope this helps ya Mike--Good shooting! Yers, Crow Choker

[Mike]

Crow Choker.

Thanks for the info, was were I was thinking so good to have it confirmed, will get some FF and give it ago.

I belive the same about the primers.

Will find out this morning how it shoots.

Thanks again.

[Crow Choker]

Ref powder charge; 25.5 or 26 grains work to, but the 25.0 grain charge gets the lead down the barrel and on target. Think I'll maybe play around with some 44 Spec BP loads this summer and fall since I have plenty of Spec brass and both guns and my mod 66 Win are chambed for 44 Spec. Then again, typing this in is easier to do than doing it, with all my undone projects and ones I want to do, might be all talk and no doing! Have any of that problem yourself?

[Mike]

Well shot it yesterday and with 25grns of FFF it shoots 18 inch high at 25m. Will have to reduce load to get it on the paper.

I am using 22grns of FFF in my 1860 with filler and that is shooting 8 inches high ant 25m also.

Plan 22grns in the 44 Colt and 18grns in the 1860.

The Richards is a nice gun but Uberti have not copied the origanal as the Breech ring is from the Richards Mason (hammer mounted firing pin and no sight on the BR).
The gun looks like a hybrid. I have a ASM with the correct Breech plate and will look at fitting it the the gun.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Mike;  When the point of impact is off, muzzle velocity variations do not work, as a change in barrel flip is neutralized by a change in barrel time.

What does work is to change bullet weight.

Lighter bullets print lower.  Heavier bullet strike higher.

Alternatively; lower the back sight or raise the front sight, but only after you have arrived at a good load.

[Mike]

I hear what you are saying,
I reduces the 1860 load after the same issue and it went from shooting over the target to were it is know. No change in ball weight or size.

I am going to get 200 grns for the 45 Schofield.

Will shoot again next weekend.

[Abilene]

...The Richards is a nice gun but Uberti have not copied the origanal as the Breech ring is from the Richards Mason (hammer mounted firing pin and no sight on the BR).
The gun looks like a hybrid. I have a ASM with the correct Breech plate and will look at fitting it the the gun.

The Uberti you have is a copy of a Type II Richards conversion, also called Transition Richards.  That is the way Colt made them in between the Richards (with the rear sight and firing pin on the conversion ring, like your ASM) and the Richards-Mason.  It is essentially a Richards-Mason with a Richards barrel assembly.  So yes, it is supposed to look like a hybrid.

[Mike]

I have been told this is a Type 2 Richards, I guess they wanted to save on parts. Same as the Richards is a classic.
I wanted one of each, I have the 1860 cut for stock with stock, Richards Type 2 and Opentop. Was going to get the Richards Mason next.

[rifle]

Howdy,
A magnum primer can cause problems in a non-magnum loads of smokeless and black powder. The mag primer can pop the bullet into the barrel ahead of the powder blast and let the powder burn in an elongated area and thus burn ineffectiely. That in some cases can leave stuck bullets in the barrel which ,going unnoticed, can be a real problem.
A heavy crimp could help with using mag primers but not always.
I guess if a bullet is popped forward from the magnum primer then hit with the powder blast it can do a go-stop-go thing that's unnoticed naturally. That could make a gun shoot higher than it normally would with standard primers.
I always go to a lighter bullet, if possible, when a gun/revolver shoots high. I've had problems trying to make light round balls for a cap&baller though.     It can be done though it's too much trouble.
A hollow base can be drilled into the ball and that side inserted first in the chamber. Easier would be a bullet mould made from a blank and drill it to make a short ball with one end flat. Stick the round end in the chamber first.
A mould can be made to make a bullet no longer than a ball and hollow based too. The mould would have to be drilled from the bottom and the rod to make the hollow base inserted in the bottom and have a thin part to make the hole in the ball and a wide part for the plug to plug the bottom of the mould and make a flat bottom to the ball/bullet. It would need be made the exact diameter as the chambers and depend on the front of the plunger to swag and seal the ball in. I imagine the flat sided hollow base ball/bullet would improve the accuracy considering most chambers of cap&ballers are smaller than the barrel grooves.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I read in book THE AMERICAN SHOTGUN, by David F. Butler, that smokeless is much harder to ignite than BP. It resulted in the development of the 209 type primer.  Magtech brass shells are made for the large pistol primer and likely quite suitable for BP loads. Perhaps that is why the doublegunshop commisioned the 209 conversion of Magtech brass shot shells.

I followed the fashion for magnum-primers-for-BPCR loads as well, but now I have come to agree that they are not necessary in BP cartridges.

Amended;  It was the book by Butler, not the magazine.

[rifle]

I like the doublegunshop and the American Shotgun magazines. Most class magazine I've ever seen. I have one. I'd like more. Shotguns are my favorites. I like to hunt "Upland Game".
Some people put paper in the bottom of the cartridge to block primer pressure. I can't wrap my head around that one. Some people insert paper in the primer hole under the primer to lessen primer pressure. They make tabs of paper to stick under the case as the primer is seated it cuts the paper to the size of the primer pocket. I don't do that. I just got a holt of CCI Benchrest primers in the beginning and always used those.
I did use mag primers in a standard 45 Colt load ,"once". I got bullets stuck in my barrel. The mag primers did it. I was glad I had just read an article in a Gun Magazine (just after the stuck bullets thing)about that very same thing so I knew what caused the stuck bullets.
In a venerable blackpowder rifle cartridge the mag primers like the Federal was touted for a long time as the thing to use to get a good burn. It actually was giving a weaker burn in some guns from the primer blast moving the bullet and enlarging the space the powder had to get burning good.
Did they use smaller primers backin the old days in shotgun shells?

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

There were many makers of component and loaded shotshells in the late 19th Century.  In the 1880s the Ammunition Manufacturers Association was formed by the larger maker to standardize the industry.  It is hard to determine all the variations of components used at any one time.

Primers varied quite a bit but generally in the 1880s both brass and paper cases were primed with rifle primers, sometimes of Berdan design. Bulk smokeless powder was used by Winchester in 1894.  Smokess powder was first developed for the French Lebel rifle of the 1880s.  For shotgun use it was deliberately degraded to be of equal bulk to BP so shotgunners could continue to use their old guns safely. Handloaders had difficulty getting the new powders to ignite and often adopted duplex loads in an attempt to counter the problem. When OLIn's Western  brand was breaking into the market association members cut off their supplies of components, so Olin teamed up with ELEY and the first battery cup primer came from them, but was smaller than the 209 we now know.

In 1912, The remington NITRO CLUB shell was introduced by Remington and it had the new .240 diameter battery cup primer that is familiar to us today.  WOW, another centenary!

[G.W. Strong]

I love the 44 colt. I have a Richards Mason I conversion that was from by R&D. I load the cases with 25.0 grains of FFF Goex or Kik, CCI or Win primers and I use one of Dick Dastardly's Big Lube bullets. I use the 200 grain Mav Dutchman Bullet and it shoots point of aim at 7-10 yards. My load is vey similar to Crow Choker's