Help with some identification

[RickB]

I just picked up a colt model open top revolver at the gun show this weekend and was wondering if any of you have ever seen or know anything about this gun. It is a Navy model conversion open top revolver in .38 colt. It doesn't have much in the way of markings but those that it does have give very little to go on.

Under the barrel (just under the ejector lever) is the marking "Navy Arms". On the cylinder is the marking "PATENT No" but no number. On the underside of the frame just ahead of the trigger guard is the serial number. That is all it has that I can see. I assume that it is a cartridge conversion sold by Navy Arms. I don't know if it is Uberti or ASM or what.

It appears to be solid and well made. The finish is really nice. It has the navy battle scene on the cylinder and the gun is just (in my opinion) beautiful. I paid $300 for it and thought it would look good in my collection.

Any info you can share with me would be greatly appreciated.

Here are some pictures.

[RickB]

A couple more pictures of my new pistol.

Hope you enjoy and can share some info on this beautiful gun.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Armi san Marco made Richards style conversion that never was of the Colt 1851 Navy.
This model should have a separate gas ring between cylinder and barrel to to protect the arbor.
Had one like these with beautiful bluing, case colors and nickel plated TG and BS.
Mine would shoot light .38 Specials.
Enjoy!
Long Johns Wolf

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[Major 2]

Appears to be an ASM . the rear sight & silver plated grip frame & trigger guard are indicative.
You may read they had a spotty reputation, on the other hand I have seen and handled very nice examples.

Enjoy your gun, you did OK !  

[Raven]

There is an original 51 Richards conversion with a mason ejector that ASM probably based theirs on, built by Colt's engineer William Mason for his prototype ejector.
It is marked on the backstrap "William Mason Inventor". Allways liked the look of a 51 1st Richards/Mason

RickB.....COOL gun!!! happy shooting!
Raven

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Nice grips with the Mexican eagle and snake.

[RickB]

Thanks pards.  Even though it's a ASM it feels sold and well made. I have an ASM schofield Wellsfargo model. It has never failed me.

I really like those Mexican grips too Sir Charles.  One of the reasons it caught my eye. The pictures don't really do the gun justice.  It is a beautiful gun. I'm happy as a pig in manure about finding it.

I also just bought an Uberti schofield from 3B after Poncho Peacemaker told me that Bryan had one for sale. He did me a huge favor doing that. And Bryan did me a huge favour by parting with a gun that he was going to add to his own collection.  They are two great guys.

[RickB]

OK. I guess I have some questions about this pistol that the more knowledgeable of you gent's might be able to help me with.

I know that there are two .38 Colt bullets. The short and the long. Am I correct in understanding that my new pistol will shoot both or should I only buy the .38 Long Colt to shoot in it?

Also, the cylinder of the gun is long enough that it will allow a .38 Special round which I'm sure I shouldn't use in it, but I find it odd that it will take that cartridge with plenty of room to spare. I guess I am wondering if this gun is made to shoot that caliber too?

I've found some good prices of .38 Long Colt on line and thought that I would check with you fellas before placing my first order.

I see that from one seller I can buy a case of .38 Long Colt for around $270.00. That's 10 boxes @ 50 rounds a box or 500 rounds total.

Anyway, that is my question on caliber.

Also, does anyone know of any place that sells blanks that might work in this gun?

I see that Collectors Armoury sells some 9mm blanks for their Colt SAA model blank guns. Would they work in this gun if I wanted to use it for some reenactments?  I was thinking that 9mm is the same diameter as the .38 Special so I would assume that it would fit and since the 9mm blanks are 1/2 loads they shouldn't be much of a danger to hurting this gun.

OK. Now I will wait for you more knowledgeable fellows to share with me the direction I should take.

My next step will be in finding dies or a lee pro 1000 press to reload this caliber.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

I am shooting in the dark here, but I do have a pair of Uberti '51 conversions.  They are marked for .38 long Colt and .38 Special.  I use .38 Spl ammo with .358 bullets.

Before going any further, check a few things on your revolver;
- is it marked for .38 Spl?  If it is - there's your answer.  If not continue to the next two steps.
- are the chambers in the cylinder stepped, or bored straight through?
- slug the barrel to see if it is bored for .358 bullets, or .375?

The answers will determine what ammo it will take.

If the chambers are bored straight through to a .375 barrel it will need .38LC cases and heeled .375 bullets or soft hollow based .358 bullets. If it has stepped chambers to a .357 barrel and the cylinder is not too long it should take .38 Special ammo.

Case lengths for .38  Special is 1.16".  .38LC is just a bit shorter at 1.03".  .38 Short Colt was a copy of the .380 Revolver designed for Webley revolvers in England, and the case is .70" I wouldn't think you would want to bother with the .38 Short Colt.

This is my offering. If anyone has more knowledge & experience, please chime in.

As .38 Special cases fit, and blanks do not have a solid projectile, I see no hindrance to using .38 Spl blanks, except for any possible confusion it might cause.

[RickB]

Thank you for your answer Sir Charles. The barrel only shows 38 Colt on it. So I assume that means no 38 Special rounds for it.

I talked with a guy at the gun show who had a army model conversion in 38 colt and his was bored to the 36 cal just like the BP guns used. The 38 colt ammo he had was too small for the barrel. On mine it appears that the ammo was able to just fit.

I looked at the cylinder and it is not stepped so the rim of the shell doesn't sit down into the cylinder. It rests on the top of the bored through area. So it is bored straight through. I also took a .38 Special that I have and put the bullet up to the barrel. The bullet is slightly larger than the opening in the end of the barrel so it shouldn't need a hollow based bullet to catch the rifling in the barrel. So it appears to be bored at .358 (a little smaller than the normal 38 special bullet I am guessing). Just for kicks and giggles I tried the 38 special bullet in the gun and it fits length wise and diameter wise. It's not too long to cause the gun not to rotate the cylinder. Still not sure I should use 38 special in it since it says 38 colt. I would think that the 38 special might be too powerful for the gun to take for too long.

OK. My stupidity is going to come out for all to see now. How does one slug the barrel and determine the caliber?

The reason I asked about the 9mm blanks is that my possie might be doing some reenactment for various groups this summer and I was thinking this gun would be a good one for use. If I can use the 9mm blanks in it then it would be a gun I could use just for reenactments. But I would still like to use it at shoots. It feels so good in the hand I just have to shoot it.

I'll check on youtube and see if there are any instructions on slugging the barrel and finding out the caliber or dimensions.

Your help in this matter is greatly appreciated.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Slugging the barrel is a simple concept.  Just drive a soft lead slug about groove diameter through the barrel, and measure with good calipers.  if you have a .375 to .380 roundball that would work. For a driver I have an old brass rod from a toilet tank (It connected the flush mechanism to the float).  It is very handy for the above purpose and has come in handy when I have stuck a slug in the throat of a revolver!!!!!  Otherwise a brass rod about 1/4"diameter, and slightly longer than the longest pistol barrel you own
Coat the ball with a good drop of oil to allow it to slip through the barrel.  Open top revolvers are a cinch as you can drive the slug through from the rear forcing cone end.
If you don't have 6 inch digital calipers that read down to a "thou" you need to get one. After you have it you will find endless uses for it. These are the ones I have;

http://www.amazon.ca/Neiko-Stainless-Digital-Caliper-Extra-Large/dp/B000GSLKIW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334548576&sr=8-1

[Coffinmaker]

I'll try to shorten up your efforts.  You gun is an Armi San Marco built "almost" good copy of an 1851 Colt Richards Conversion.  The barrel is bored 357 and it is chambered for at least 38 Special.  Your gun will digest any and all SAMMI spec 38 Spl ammunition although I would NOT run +P thru it.
If it breaks, there are no replacement parts available.  Do NOT lose the little spacer in front of the Cylinder (if it's still there).

Coffinmaker

[RickB]

So Coffinmaker are you saying that it can handle the. 38 special loads as long as I don't use + p ammo?

Or since it specified 38 colt should I stick with that? 

True it will chamber the 38 special,  but can it handle the pressure?

Anyone know where I can get the manual or more information on this gun?

[swampman]

If you're needing blanks and you can't load your own, I'd strongly suggest giving Robb at Atlantic Wall Blanks a call. His loads are top quality and half the price of Collector's Armory. He's a major player in the reenacting blank ammo community. Real nice fellow to talk to too.    http://www.atlanticwallblanks.com/

Tell him 'panzerbear' from the WW2 forum sent ya.

[RickB]

Thank you.

[Major 2]

So Coffinmaker are you saying that it can handle the. 38 special loads as long as I don't use + p ammo?

Or since it specified 38 colt should I stick with that? 

True it will chamber the 38 special,  but can it handle the pressure?

Anyone know where I can get the manual or more information on this gun?

It will be fine with "Cowboy" 38 Special,  Coffinmaker is correct stear clear of +P and Max Defense loads

[RickB]

Any brands of 38 special you can suggest I use to shoot in this? 

[Long Johns Wolf]

Coffinmaker: is it a spacer or a gasring or both?
Long Johns Wolf

[Pony Racer]

RickB - I have found with my conversions that you can not use the longer 38spl bullets designed for the lever rifles in them because the poke out the front.

I have used a stubby 158 grain lyman bullet and am trying out Springfield Slims 140 grain bullet too.

I reload all my own ammo

PR

[RickB]

I've tried 38 special in this gun and they fit perfectly so length isn't an issue.
I'm concerned about the 38 special being too powerful for the gun to handle and damaging the gun.

I've found three places on line that sell 38 colt for decent prices. But if some brands of 38 special are light enough loads I can shoot them in this gun then that could save me time and shipping costs plus maybe some money.