Confederate Navy Brass Frame .44: Completely Historically Inaccurate?

[Megabutter]

So, as I'm sure a ton of you are familiar with Pietta's Confederate .44.  While I have been able to subsantiate brass frame, round barrell Navy copies by the Confederate's, I have yet to find it in .44.

Anyone have any info on one?  Or is it Pietta doing it 'cause they thought it'd be cool?

[Tascosa Joe]

We have had many days worth of discussion on this subject over on the NCOWS sight.  We came to the same conclusion it is the figment of an Italians imagination.

[Pettifogger]

The gun as pictured is just a composite of various parts to make an interesting non-existent in the old days gun.  If they look neat and I like them I shoot them because they are fun whether or not "historically" accurate.  Just as a note, it is impossible to have a .44 caliber "Navy."  Guns of "Navy" caliber are by definition (19th Century nomenclature) .36s.  Guns of .44 caliber were of "Army" caliber.

[Advertising]

[3Fingers_Murphy]

The gun as pictured is just a composite of various parts to make an interesting non-existent in the old days gun.  If they look neat and I like them I shoot them because they are fun whether or not "historically" accurate.  Just as a note, it is impossible to have a .44 caliber "Navy."  Guns of "Navy" caliber are by definition (19th Century nomenclature) .36s.  Guns of .44 caliber were of "Army" caliber.

+1

[Fingers McGee]

The gun as pictured is just a composite of various parts to make an interesting non-existent in the old days gun.  If they look neat and I like them I shoot them because they are fun whether or not "historically" accurate.  Just as a note, it is impossible to have a .44 caliber "Navy."  Guns of "Navy" caliber are by definition (19th Century nomenclature) .36s.  Guns of .44 caliber were of "Army" caliber.

+2

Brass frame, round barrel, .36 Cal = Griswold & Gunnison - That was produced in Griswoldville, GA up until 1864
Brass frame, octagonal barrel, .36 Cal = Schneider & Glassick - that never went into production

[River City John]

Brass-framed with a rebated cylinder. 

RCJ

[Hoof Hearted]

This pops up or "rears it's ugly head" from time to time on all the related forums.
Everytime it does we get "opinions" that range from Mako's "kludge" remarks to the "I like it 'cause it's fun" ones.
Fact is it's like the "field of dreams" and they make it because we buy it

I want to know why we all call the 1860 (and enlarged pocket designs) "Rebated Cylinder" when it is actually an enlarged cylinder

Regards, HH-IRMOBFMIM

[Pettifogger]

"I want to know why we all call the 1860 (and enlarged pocket designs) "Rebated Cylinder" when it is actually an enlarged cylinder."  Cause the hind end is smaller than the front end.

Since gun ownership is so restricted in Europe and a lot of people can only only muzzleloaders, the Europeans have a lot more variety than what is available in the U.S.  Here are Pietta's offerings just for the 1860 Army series.
http://www.pietta.us/products/Muzzleloadinguns/Army/gallery/index.html

[Fingers McGee]

I want to know why we all call the 1860 (and enlarged pocket designs) "Rebated Cylinder" when it is actually an enlarged cylinder

Regards, HH-IRMOBFMIM

One reason is cause that was the way Haven & Belden described the 1860 (and 1862) cylinders in their book "A History of the Colt Revolver" in 1940.  Not sure how long before that - or by who - they were described that way.  A Cylinder that stared out large would have to be reduced in size at the back to fit the step in the frame.  Or another way to look at it, the frame is rebated to accept a stepped cylinder.  Potato, Potahto

FM

[Hoof Hearted]

Yes.....but........that is NOT what was done!
The parent revolver 1851 was modified to accept an "enlarged" cylinder, i,e; the front is enlarged the back is not reduced.

Thanks for the historical reference, Fingers, it seems that maybe Haven and Belden took some license iin their use of terms and maybe it just stuck.


Regards, HH-IRMOB3FMIM

[3Fingers_Murphy]

“Rebated” isn’t a technical term, you can look it up. It is a finance term, sometimes it is even a marketing term which are subjects I know something about. Don’t know about the first use but some smart guy at Colt probably used the term when selling the idea to the army when they were putting a large cylinder on a small frame. The secret in marketing is to maximize benefits, if you attempt to make the diminutive seem larger you may trap yourself. It is always better to accentuate the maximum size of something if that is what the customer wants. “Rebated” does that, it shows you squeezed a more powerful caliber onto a smaller gun.

I have been told the same thing has happened many times with Colt. They changed the way that calibers were defined more than once. The .45 Long Colt is the same diameter as the ammunition used in the 1860 Army model, but they marketed it as a .45 caliber which was a departure from the caliber naming they had used before. Bigger was better in this case and it even matched the new rifle caliber diameter the army was fielding. Marketing.

I learned this one from my wife’s cousin who thinks he still lives in Scotland. Kludgies are a common term to them, he once told me this when I used the term in his presence, so I looked it up for you. It differs a bit from his, he was much more colorful.

kludge definition
 /kluhj/ (From the Scot Gaelic "kludgie" meaning an outside toilet) A Scottish engineering term for anything added in an ad hoc and possibly unhygienic manner. At some point during the Second World War, Scottish engineers met Americans and the meaning, spelling and pronunciation of kludge became confused with that of " kluge".
The spelling "kludge" was apparently popularised by the "Datamation" cited below which defined it as "An ill-assorted collection of poorly matching parts, forming a distressing whole."
["How to Design a Kludge", Jackson Granholme, Datamation, February 1962, pp. 30-31].
[ Jargon File]
(1998-12-09)

It looks like the Datamation definition is how some people use it when referring to the brass guns. I have no problem with them, but I also have a camo .50 cal. Rem. 700ML which tells you that I really don’t care as long as it shoots. I don’t even always  shoot black powder in my 1871 Open Tops. I have a couple of  Navy, an Army revolver, a Walker I rarely shoot and I have 58 New Armys in .36 and .44 which I have been told isn’t correct. I shoot Rugers and sometimes I shoot them in the black powder cartridge class and I don’t care if I use black powder or pyrodex.

People can shoot anything they want, and companies will always sell anything to make a buck, but that doesn’t make it authentic anymore than my muzzleloader is a plains rifle like Jeremiah Johnson used.
Murphy

[Hoof Hearted]

“Rebated” isn’t a technical term, you can look it up. It is a finance term, sometimes it is even a marketing term which are subjects I know something about. Don’t know about the first use but some smart guy at Colt probably used the term when selling the idea to the army when they were putting a large cylinder on a small frame. The secret in marketing is to maximize benefits, if you attempt to make the diminutive seem larger you may trap yourself. It is always better to accentuate the maximum size of something if that is what the customer wants. “Rebated” does that, it shows you squeezed a more powerful caliber onto a smaller gun.

I have been told the same thing has happened many times with Colt. They changed the way that calibers were defined more than once. The .45 Long Colt is the same diameter as the ammunition used in the 1860 Army model, but they marketed it as a .45 caliber which was a departure from the caliber naming they had used before. Bigger was better in this case and it even matched the new rifle caliber diameter the army was fielding. Marketing.

I learned this one from my wife’s cousin who thinks he still lives in Scotland. Kludgies are a common term to them, he once told me this when I used the term in his presence, so I looked it up for you. It differs a bit from his, he was much more colorful.

kludge definition
 /kluhj/ (From the Scot Gaelic "kludgie" meaning an outside toilet) A Scottish engineering term for anything added in an ad hoc and possibly unhygienic manner. At some point during the Second World War, Scottish engineers met Americans and the meaning, spelling and pronunciation of kludge became confused with that of " kluge".
The spelling "kludge" was apparently popularised by the "Datamation" cited below which defined it as "An ill-assorted collection of poorly matching parts, forming a distressing whole."
["How to Design a Kludge", Jackson Granholme, Datamation, February 1962, pp. 30-31].
[ Jargon File]
(1998-12-09)

It looks like the Datamation definition is how some people use it when referring to the brass guns. I have no problem with them, but I also have a camo .50 cal. Rem. 700ML which tells you that I really don’t care as long as it shoots. I don’t even always  shoot black powder in my 1871 Open Tops. I have a couple of  Navy, an Army revolver, a Walker I rarely shoot and I have 58 New Armys in .36 and .44 which I have been told isn’t correct. I shoot Rugers and sometimes I shoot them in the black powder cartridge class and I don’t care if I use black powder or pyrodex.

People can shoot anything they want, and companies will always sell anything to make a buck, but that doesn’t make it authentic anymore than my muzzleloader is a plains rifle like Jeremiah Johnson used.
Murphy

WOW!

It appears that "3 Fingers Murphy" Is Mako in disguise

[3Fingers_Murphy]

WOW!

It appears that "3 Fingers Murphy" Is Mako in disguise

You are now the third person who has told me that. I'll take it as a compliment, though I'm not sure you meant it as such. I wish it was Mako.

[Megabutter]

I figured as much. Thanks for the confirmation.  Question answered:  Italian Fig Newton of their  imagination.

Thanks for the info on Navy caliber and the like as well.

How does this stuff sit at CAS events?  Anyone really care if someone is shooting a couple of them?  Or like the MWNN .38?  Both cool guns, but I am a sucker for attention to historical detail.   Any regulations in that regard?

[Fingers McGee]

I figured as much. Thanks for the confirmation.  Question answered:  Italian Fig Newton of their  imagination.

Thanks for the info on Navy caliber and the like as well.

How does this stuff sit at CAS events?  Anyone really care if someone is shooting a couple of them?  Or like the MWNN .38?  Both cool guns, but I am a sucker for attention to historical detail.   Any regulations in that regard?

I can't speak for NCOWS matches - I'm not a member and don't shoot their matches - but SASS has no rules against non historically correct C&B revolvers or conversions.  Only discrminator is whether it has adjustable sights or not.  Adjustable sights would limit the number of categories you could shoot them in.

[Coffinmaker]

Ah,  I beg to differ. "Rebate" is a "technical" term commonly used in woodworking.

But, an 1860 cylinder isn't rebated.  The frame is.  There is almost nothing in CAS that is truly authentic.  It's a game played with real Guns and live ammunition, played the way the player earns to play.  Let's not get down to splitting hairs here.  Like a carpenter, if it looks "fine for the freeway" it's good.

Coffinmaker

[Major 2]

As for NCOWS. the BRASS FRAME Navy 44  is an enigmia , it is neither on the approved list or dis-approved list.

Perplexing yes !  It was brought up once at the Congress and they did not rule on it.

Generally, it would be not approved, however since the is no rule and if someone was to show up to shoot at the local level,
I'd say they are welcome to shoot it..... even if it later was disapproved the shooter has one year to get his gear in line.

Bottom line, Local NCOWS posse's you'll be fine ...maybe looked at crosseyed, but your shooting.
At the Regional's of National events, as I said Generally, it would be not approved.
 I'd expect it would be up to the Judge.
 

The Fictitious Brass Frame 1860's also would fall into this same Conundrum

[Megabutter]

The Fictitious Brass Frame 1860's also would fall into this same Conundrum

This is an interesting statement to my noobish eyes!  What other fictitious C&B's are out there?  Is that a brass frame 1860 Army you're talking about?  I have to admit, in my limited research I have only come across brass frame Navy's from the Confed's as historically accurate.

An ideas on how the MWNN .38 is viewed?  I mean, it's a Navy built ground up to shoot .38 special right?

On a personal level, I love the look of Navy's and Army's over the 1873 style guns.  But C&B full time could be a pain.  And conversion pistols just don't have the same look w/out the ramming lever (noob term).

...I'll get into the "rebate debate" some other day.  I'm not there yet.  And as stated in my OP, I am interested in learning about the historical firearms while getting out and shooting.  Certainly not get down on anyone who isn't interested in that part.  By all means, shoot what you want to shoot!  And build it if they'll shoot it!

[Fingers McGee]

SASS - MWNN perfectly legal.  I use a pair of them as backups and when not shooting C&Bs.

In adition to the brass .44 cal 1851 and 1860 Armies, other non historically correct brass framed revolvers are:
.31 cal 1848 Baby Dragoon
.31 cal 1849 pocket model
.36 cal 1862 pocket navy
.36 cal 1862 pocket police
.36 cal 1861 Navy
.36 cal Remington
.44 cal Remington

[Major 2]

NCOWS  - MWNN is also perfectly legal

Many 36 Navys were converted to 38 .... granted they were mostly 38 Colt and outside lubed (heel bullet )
The MWNN is named after the S. Leone westerns, but is consistant with the style of field conversions done by smiths other than Colt Factory conversions.

NCOWS approves the Conversion.