Smoking 45s

[Popa Kapoff]

Howdy Pards

 Just decided I want to load up some BP 45lc cartridges for a match but do not have the foggiest of what to do or where to get a book to read about doing it..

I was told!!!!!

1. You will blow up the house if I use a auto progressive press. {I own a Hornady LnL AP as well as a lovely house}

2. You blow up my guns. {Two Uberti's 1875s a Rossi 92 and a Stoeger SXS}

3. It is a absolute pain in the arse to clean your gun after. {mined you I ruined an TC Firehawk by firing a 209primer to blow out a jab patch and not re cleaning the bore so I am very nervous of ruining my boys}

4. BP is not as safe as the substitute. {what substitute should I use. Triple 7 is readily available where I live but I can get any thing I want with in a hours drive of my home not a big deal}   

5. What is a good manual for reloading BP?

Thanks
Popa Kapoff and all the Kapoff’s {that goes back to keeping the house on the ground}

[wildman1]

1. I use a single stage. 2 ya won't blow up yer guns. 3 To clean my guns after shootin BP takes 2-3 patches in the barrels and 1 Q-tip fer the action in my 92. I spray a little Windex on the front part of the frame on my Rugers, hit it with a toothbrush wipe it dry. 4 BP is safer than the substitutes in my opinion. 5 Go to the Goex website they have a load chart for BP. The only real problem I have is in my shotgun. I get lead in the barrel because I do not use a shotcup or lube.  When I get a new gun it sometimes takes numerous patches ta get it clean. After shooting a couple hundred rounds it gets the barrel smoothed out and only takes 2-3 patches. I DO anneal all of my brass so I do NOT get any blowback.  Good luck shootin. WM

[Cookie]

1) I don't use a progressive press. But there's a thread recently on that issue.

2) Not a chance! Modern guns are made to withstand smokeless pressures, which far exceed any amount of BP you can stuff into the same space.

3) Hardly a "pain". It is a bit more involved than cleaning up after smokeless, but takes me maybe 45 minutes for 4 guns. Watch Mike's videos, they're great.

4) What do you mean by "safe"? I've never even heard that brought up before, so I can't comment. I will say this - I switched to real BP after shooting Pyrodex for a year, and I'll never go back. The smoke off of Pyrodex was much more acrid and smelly. BP smoke is smooooth.

5) A manual? Here's all you need for CAS -
   A) Load cases with BP, leaving enough space for bullet minus 1/8 to 1/16 inch to compress the powder.
   B) If you don't want a full-power load, use a filler such as oatmeal, cornmeal, grits or similar, to fill in airspace.
   C) Use LOTS of BP lube. Examples - BigLube molds, Lyman molds, or some people - myself included - use felt wads soaked in lube. (I make my own, but you can buy Wonder Wads for lots more $$$). Bullets from Lee molds, IMO don't carry enough lube for BP. No experience with others. DO NOT use smokeless lube, use a BP-specific lube. You can buy it or make your own.
   D) Use a nice solid crimp.
   E) Enjoy!

Now, BPCR (or any long-range shooting) is an entirely different beast, but for CAS or plinking, the above is really all you need to know.

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[Pappy Myles]

Here's my experience.

I use an old lyman Spat T turret with Lee Dies delux set.  It has a powder flow thru expander die and a seperate crimp die.  The crimp die is worth its weight in gold.    My pistols are old model vaqueros for cartridge and Ruger old army for cap and ball.  Uberti 73 rifle, and a TNN shotgun.  I use an old set of Lee dippers to pour the powder.  SLow, but if you have time on your hands, fun and gratifying.  I have a lot of pyrodex that was given to me.  When I finish it up, I'll go to Goex.  My Pistol I use starline 45 scofield with about 22 grains pyrodex.  Only reason I use the schofield, someone gave me a bag full and because they are a tad shorter, I don't have to mess with filler.  I use Dick Dasterdly's BIG Lube bullet - 210 grain with SPG Lube.  The key is to use lots of lube.  Oh  and I use a cardboard wad, circle flys 45, its the thin one.  Rifle round id RP 45 colt cases and its about 32 gr pyrodex with Lymans 452 664 250 gr bullet.  Again, SPG lube. Clean up.  Windex, but make sure you use the vinager one.   Soap and water.   I actually clean up faster with BP then smokless.  Dry and oil.  I have an other post on shotgun.

I find I have more enjoyment with BP than I do with smokless.  Be parpaired to slow down a bit while shooting,  Gives a chance for the smoke to clear out a tad so you can actually see the target.

[Paladin UK]

Pappy Mayles says...........

Windex, but make sure you use the vinegar one.

JMOHO here....
I would personally stay clear of `vinegar` It can have a reel bad effect on yer nice blue gun!!

Again..JMOHO your guns your choice  

 Paladin (what lurvs the holy black ) UK

[Noz]

Pappy Mayles says...........

JMOHO here....
I would personally stay clear of `vinegar` It can have a reel bad effect on yer nice blue gun!!

Again..JMOHO your guns your choice  

 Paladin (what lurvs the holy black ) UK

I de-blued a set of 1860s with a bottle of Windex with Vinegar. Sprayed them down, got distracted by a customer. Went back 2 hours later to a mess. Had to refinish both guns.

[joec]

My preference is Simple Green after shooting BP which I do through all my pistols, rifle and shotguns. It does the job with no damage to anything other than I don't like the smell of it.

[Paladin UK]

Fer joec ...

....................other than I don't like the smell of it.

Well pard you definitely wont like the smell of Ballistol my Annie `O` says it smells like cat pee!!  I think it smells ...different 

Paladin (What lurvs the smell of Ballistol first thing in the morning  ) UK

[Dick Dastardly]

Howdy Popa,

You said "I was told!!!!!"

Well, you was told wrong.  Sounds like yer teller is a feller that don't know squat about shooting Genuine Powder.  Hang out around here and you will learn the TRUTH!  Some of it colorfully embellished, some very opinionated and much enjoyable to read.

For some very good information, go to the Library "The Dark Arts" at the top of this forum.

Welcome to the Darkside!!

DD-MDA

[joec]

Fer joec ...
Well pard you definitely wont like the smell of Ballistol my Annie `O` says it smells like cat pee!!  I think it smells ...different 

Paladin (What lurvs the smell of Ballistol first thing in the morning  ) UK

Well to be honest I've not smelled a thing in over 15 years, I base that on my wife's sense of smell. I have use Ballistol but she hasn't complained about it so can't tell you. 

[rickk]

Ballistol smells way better than Hoppee's #9.

A progressive press is really no different than any other press, but you may want to consider switching to a powder measure that the manufacturer considers safe for BP.  To not do so means you are on your own. Can the Hornady BP measure be swapped out for the standard one on the press? I don't know, but they sure look a lot alike. Maybe an email to Hornady is in order, or maybe someone has done it already.

You have to clean your guns. Water and a bit of soap and some Ballistol are all you need.  It's not an all day affair to clean them.  A SXS takes about 5 minutes to clean. A revolver takes a bit longer, but not much.

I don't think it is possible to get too much 2F powder in a handgun round to blow up a gun. The standard load is to pretty much fill the case to the point where the bullet just barely fits (+- a little). You can't put more in it that that.  You might be able to do some damage, maybe, in some brands of guns if you use 4F instead, but unless you have a reason to have 4F around you won't make that unlikely mistake because you wont have any.  Just like smokeless powder, read the label before you use the powder. With experience, you can actually visually tell the difference between 2 and 3 and 4F ... try that with most smokeless powders and you are risking lots.

It might be possible to overload a shotgun shell if you try hard enough but just use common sense and keep them reasonable and it won't happen. You aren't hunting elephants at a CAS match.  Mild loads are way more fun to shoot anyway.  Also, there is a huge degree of safe tolerance in load with BP. If you took the same liberties in a shotgun shell with smokeless you would probably have a bad day.

On the flip side, Yes, you might blow up your house if you do not use some basic precautions. BP will burn much more vigorously than smokeless if unconfined. It is actually considered a low explosive whereas smokeless is a "flammable solid". Don't store more than you need for the short term in your house. The same can be said about smokeless, or paint thinner or gasoline even. A separate powder storage area is always a good idea. A shed, or a metal box behind a wood pile is all that is needed. There is the ATF "Orange Book " (available online for free) that will tell you the legal requirements for a storage area for both BP and also smokeless and primers too.


Don't fear BP... it is different than smokeless, but in general it is probably safer than smokeless.

Rick

[WaddWatsonEllis]

Hi,

I happen to shoot a Model '73 set up for Schofields.

Still, watch the OAL of your ammo ... if the bullet was set too far in the case, it shortens the OAL so much that a 'short' shell will allow another shell to half load onto the carriers and lock up the whole gun.

I was the last one on time after finally figuring this out .... and it took two shoots to figure it.

So, before you load, set a caliper to the minimum OAL lengths and send anything shorter into the revolvers ... they don't care about OAL length ... unless it is too long to fit in a cylinder, which would be awfully hard to do  .... *S*

[Wills Point Pete]

  You will find that using ffg powder instead of fffg powder will lower your pressure. I have found that the heavier bullets reduce blowback and that keeps the action of the rifle cleaner. And I don't claim to be a big ol' expert but I have also found that each powder likes a different compression level. I got a good deal on Graf and Sons' ffg and discovered, mainly by accident, that it likes a whole lot more compression than GOEX. You will want to experiment there, your targets will show what works.

 The most important part is having enough black powder compatible lube. Without that your shooting will be slow and very unsatisfying. Dick Dastardly's Pearl Lube works well, he claims that his Pearl Lube Mk II is even better, since his MK I is good enough for everything I've ever tried to do, I haven't bothered. Try soy container candle wax, cheap shortening (with no salt, check the ingredients) and a piece of toilet bowl wax ring. Start with about half and half with enough of the wax ring to make it sticky enough to stick on the boolit. Adjust the mix according to your weather and method of lubing. I pan lube so I don't much care. Some folks use a lubrisizer, others hand lube.

 Now I'm retired so am in no hurry to load my ammo. I actually use a drop tube and compression die for my .45s. I'm not really a good enough shot with a revolver to prove the difference but with my '92 clone I can show the difference.

 If your bullets do not have enough in the way of lube grooves you can put a wad over the powder and slap a gob of lube over the wad, then seat the bullet. If you want really accurate loads it will take a little more work. We're kinda spoiled in the CAS game with the big, close targets. Of course, then they throw that gong in, 'way past Fort Mudge and we have a problem. We oughta hear a BOOM! Clang! and all we hear is the BOOM So, I pretend my .45s are the .45-70-500s of the buffalo hunters and load all my stuff that way.

 What the heck, since my stroke I'll never win on speed, I might as well be accurate.

 You will not be able to blow up a gun with the One True Powder.  And it's easier to clean up my shootin' irons with BP than with that heathen fad smokeless stuff. True, Black is messier but the mess cleans up with water and a tad o' soap. Or Moose milk which is water and Ballistol. Smokeless we have to deal with lead fouling and jacket fouling, neither happens with Black.

[Wildcat Will]

Not sure I can do anything other than jump on the the band wagon with what everyone else has said.  I've been shooting the real powder for about 6 years now in this CAS game.  I shoot two RVs, a Marlin and various SXS including a 10 ga.  Recently purchased two 1860 Army Piettas C&B.  

When  I started loading BP I shifted to a Lyman BP powder drop with a 12 inch tube rigged by a mechanic buddy to attach to my Dillion Square Deal.  I set my FFg loads for pistols and rifle 45LC loads the same (makes is less confusing when carrying ammo to the range).  I purchased Dick's 250 Big Lube mold and filled the cases to the rim (about 37gn), and smashed that 250 on top.  Lots of Smoke, BOOM, Fire, and Stink.  Got away with some misses I'm sure because the RO and spotters couldn't see or hear anything after the round went off. I've backed off to about 33gns primarily for medical reasons.  The shotguns took 75 gn of ffg in the 12g and 120 gn in the 10.  I wanted to make sure folks knew I was shooting.  Again I've backed off and I'm down to 60 in the 12g which knocksdown the targets right nicely.  I will start loading the 10g down to 100-105 when I start back with it.  

As for cleaning I ain't not chemist but "I've heard" that after a bit the Ballistol will fill in the pores of the metal and make the guns clean easier.  All I can say is that after cleaning them for 6 years: a squirt of moose milk in each barrel of the shotgun and push one sheet of paper towel through with a dowel, a little squirt on the moving parts and I'm done (5 mins if I'm talking when I do it.)  The pistols get the barrels sprayed down along with the cylinders and top strap and the marlin gets the lever and bolt pulled after spraying down the barrel real good.  Once the shotgun is down, one patch through the rifle barrel, a couple of patches on the guts, lube and reassemble and 10-15 mins later (if I'm talking) I'm done.  Pistols pretty much the same as the rifle and about 10 mins each (yes if I'm talking) and I'm done.  I do all the cleaning on the back of the pickup at the range cause the wife is not a big fan of "Ole to Ballistol".  

Honestly it really is easier to clean, and a heck of alot more fun to shoot BP (the real stuff).  I've used Goex, Diamondback and Schuetzen and have had good luck with all three.  If I had my thruthers I would stick with Goex but with Diamondback at about $2/lb cheaper, I'll go that way.  

BTW I put my cases (I shoot brass shotshells) in a bottle with water and dish soap until I get home and then flush with the garden hose and place in a 170 degree oven for about 5 mins to dry and then tumble.  Then it is back to starting the process all over again.  

I thank God for a couple of pards: Arcey and Va Wildman (God rest his soul) for finally convincing me that if you are going to shoot GF the only way to go is BP.  I haven't looked back.

[StrawHat]

Howdy Pards

 Just decided I want to load up some BP 45lc cartridges for a match but do not have the foggiest of what to do or where to get a book to read about doing it..

I was told!!!!!

1. You will blow up the house if I use a auto progressive press. {I own a Hornady LnL AP as well as a lovely house}

2. You blow up my guns. {Two Uberti's 1875s a Rossi 92 and a Stoeger SXS}

3. It is a absolute pain in the arse to clean your gun after. {mined you I ruined an TC Firehawk by firing a 209primer to blow out a jab patch and not re cleaning the bore so I am very nervous of ruining my boys}

4. BP is not as safe as the substitute. {what substitute should I use. Triple 7 is readily available where I live but I can get any thing I want with in a hours drive of my home not a big deal}   

5. What is a good manual for reloading BP?

Thanks
Popa Kapoff and all the Kapoff’s {that goes back to keeping the house on the ground}

You forgot this one,

6.  You'll shoot your eye out kid.

I load on a semi progressive when I load for handguns, an old Dillon 450.  A blackpowder measure is nice but not necessary.  For rifle cartridges, I use a Lyman Tong Tool, but, I no longer compete so my needs are different than others.  For my shooting I also see no need to crimp.  Neck tension is sufficient to keep the bullet from falling out and the black powder ( remember, no air space between powder and boolit) is there to keep the bullet from getting shoved into the case.  Originally lead bullets for these cartridges did not have crimping grooves.  Those weren't needed until the less bulky smokeless powder became common.

There are a lot of references for the black powder reloader.  Do a search of this site or use your search engine to search all sites.  Many sites are dedicated to it.

(And no, you won't shoot your eye out unless you are very unlucky.)

[Popa Kapoff]

I would like to thank all you Pards for the info.

But I have decided to order the black powder round for now just seem to be more work then I have time for right now. I also need to learn more about this lube business.

[wildman1]

PK try  http://goatlipstips.cas-town.com/panlubing.html     WM

[Pappy Myles]

Can't testify to the comment about the Windex with vinegar taking the blue off your guns.  I haven’t had that problem.  I guess if you leave it on a while and forget to wipe it down.  But not saying it doesn’t happen, Obviously others have.   There are numerous products available on the market.  All depends on the availability in your area and what you want to pay for them.   Stay tuned, you'll certainly get an ear full of lots of differing opinions, experiences, and methods.
You can always go back to the way they were cleaned originally.  With hot water and soap.  Followed by oiling them down.

[Pappy Myles]

On another note, take a look at Captain Baylor's site  http://www.curtrich.com/captbaylorsrangercamp.html.   It has a lot of good information

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I load 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, and 44 Russian with Black Powder on a Hornady L&L AP press. I do not use the standard Hornady powder measure, instead I use a Lyman Black Powder measure. I simply installed the Lyman measure in one of the standard Hornady L&L collets. I do not have the linkage engaged to work the Lyman powder measure, instead I must remember to throw the powder measure handle every time a case rises up to the top of the loading station where the powder measure is. Not a big deal.

I buy old Lyman powder measures cheap off of white elephant tables and such whenever I have the chance. Smokeless, or BP it does not matter. I pull out the guts (the rotor and such) and use them in my BP set up. Sometimes a little bit of selective filing is needed, sometimes they drop right in. The reason for multiple rotors is that I keep each one set and labeled for the standard powder charges I use in each of those cartridges. When I change calibers I change out the rotor in the Lyman powder measure. Much simpler than adjusting the powder measure for the correct charge each time. The charges were determined by the simple rule of thumb of using enough powder so that when the bullet is seated the powder will be compressed by 1/16"-1/8" by the base of the bullet. Using my old Lee dipper set, those charges are 2.2CC for 45 Colt with 250 grain bullet and 44-40 with a 200 grain bullet, 1.9CC for 45 Schofield with a 200 grain bullet, and I will have to look up what the 44 Russian charge is.

No drop tube is needed when making up BP rounds for CAS. Dropping the powder directly from the powder measure into the case is fine. I also do not use any sort of wad between the powder and bullet for my CAS loads. Just powder and bullet, simple.

For more about how to determine the proper Black Powder charge for any given cartridge, see this thread:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,18257.0.html



The deal with special bullet lube for Black Powder is because typical smokeless bullet lube only accomplishes one thing. It lubricates the bullet as it goes down the bore, preventing the lead from getting hot enough from friction against the bore to begin to melt. Black Powder lube has to do two things. It has to lube the bullet, but it also has to leave a soft, moist deposit behind in the bore. If you use regular smokeless bullet lube with Black Powder, the fouling will quickly build up a hard, caked deposit in the bore which ruins accuracy and is difficult to remove. Black Powder bullet lubes are soft and 'gooey' for lack of a better word. They keep the fouling moist so it does not build up into a hard caked deposit. In effect, each bullet wipes out most of the fouling left behind by the last bullet, and leaves some soft lube in the bore for the next bullet.

Go ahead and buy some storebought BP if you want, but if you want to get serious about shooting BP you will eventually find that storebought is very expensive.