Open top that over rotates, What is the problem?

[Raven]

Rifle,
While I appreciate the thought you have put in to this, the original intent of the Bolt Guide Block in Standard or Shooter grade firearms was to compensate for a mislocated or oversize bolt window and in Improved Accuracy firearms to accurately set the location of the chambers.
The bolt block will not effect the timing of when the bolt drops or the peaning of the bolt notch. Peaning of bolt notches is usualy caused by a bolt that is not correctly fit to the notches or has been Wedge fit (Most italian guns are wedge fit and this is 100% wrong)
If the bolt window is correctly located and the screw is undersized it would be less expensive to make a new screw that fits correctly than to install a bolt block. Also the screw  should be replace first any way.

Coffinmaker said
"Most examples of "throw by" are a result of the bolt not fitting the cylinder slots correctly and or a weak trigger/bolt spring and or late timing.  The bolt must fit all cylinder slots. it should be timed to rise into the lead and the spring needs to be nice and crisp.  I don't like wire trigger/bolt springs (just a personal "feel" thing)."

I agree with Coffinmaker in that the fitting and tuning should be done correctly for the style of shooting you are doing first.
 In my opinion wire springs are dangerous and I will not install them in my customers guns. Single actions need the positive bolt lock up provided by leaf springs and a light wire spring can contribute to throw by and the gun firing out of battery.

Rifle said
"One other movement of the bolt takes place at the other end where the legs are against the  frame and the hammer. This is not often mentioned. Simply put the legs of the bolt are springs and emitt force against the frame and hammer. The leg on the hammer emitting force against the hammer can,at the time it is almost to the top of the cam but the hammers cam isn't high enough for the bolt leg to get atop it, move itself up on it's own spring power and get ahead of the cycle snapping up onto the hammers cam. That happens because of a bevel to the top edge of the cam or wear to the top cam edge or a cannting of the hammer,thus the cam,  due to too much force the bolt legs are emitting between the hammer and the frame when the bolt leg is on the cam.
 "Canting" of the parts in just the right way to make the force of the bolt legs springiness move the bolt leg under it's own powder up on the cam before the cam is actually low enough in it's cycle. This moves the opposite side of the bolt, thus the bolts head, down or into the frame just as the gun fires. This means the gun fires while it is actually not locked into battery and may actually be slightly over rotated and mis-aligning the chamber to the bore. An accuracy problem can result....a problem that is difficult to diagnos."

I'm sorry but I just don't get it. When the hammer falls the friction against the bolt leg will cause the bolt to stay locked not come unlocked. Usualy when the bolt comes unlocked as the Hammer falls is caused by not enough tension on the bolt leg. Any "canting " of parts should be taken care of by replacement of worn parts and/or properly fitting screws.

From the Kuhnhausen SAA Shop Manual trouble shooting guide
Problem or malfunction:  Cylinder throws by
Possible causes:  Hand spring weak, misadjusted, or broken
                       Bolt spring arm weak, misadjusted ,or broken
                       Cylinder locking notch leads mislocated
                       Cylinder locking notch leads shallow
                       Bolt head contour does not match locking notch cuts/leads
                       Insufficient vertical bolt/cylinder locking notch engagement
                    

Raven

 

[Fox Creek Kid]

Raven, with all due respect re-read Rifle's post on this as you are both right and in essence you are agreeing with him and may not have realized it.  He says that it is possible (with a worn or badly fitted cam/bolt "marriage").  You guys are on the same page. 

[Raven]

FCK, I have re read that section a dozen times before I posted and several times after yours.

Maybe I'm dense.
I don't see it. Canted or not the cam pushes in one direction as the hammer comes down and that is down on the leg of the bolt. The bolt is like a teeter toter if you push down on one end the other end goes up. Any bevel on the top of the cam will not act on the bolt leg untill the leg is allready slipping over the top. The bolt leg needs tension against the hammer to function properly. A bevel on top of the cam would be much more likely to have an effect on the bolt when the hammer is being cocked causing the bolt to drop early.
A bolt leg without the proper amount of tension is much more likely to come unlocked as the hammer falls, I have seen this numerous times

If some one can explain it to me I would be happy to change my mind 

No disrespect was intended toward Rifle, in fact I have agreed publicly with Rifle on several occasions.
I just don't believe the bolt block is the proper solution to a timeing issue and I don't understand his reasoning on the cam bolt issue.

Rifle, my comments are made to exchange ideas and to expand our knowledge (including my own) and if you feel disrespected in any way I sincerly appologize.
Raven

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[rifle]

Raven, I don't feel disrespected at all. It's just hard to type so it's easy to tell what a person is talking about.
When  the hammer is falling and the bolt leg is "almost" to the top of the cam the bolt leg tension ,coupled with any slight cant from a loose in the hammers screw hole or even wear or some cant to the bolt leg the way to rides the cam, can let the bolt find the path of least resistance and move itself to get ahead of the hammer and jump to the place where the tension is less and that's atop the cam. Kinda squirts like a bar of slippery soap. The bolt leg can jump ahead of the fall of the cam and thus move it's other end (bolt head) out of the cylinder notch some annd make the "locked in battery" a locked loose in battery just as the gun fires because the bolt isn't up all the way back in the cylinder notch yet. The bevel that's put on the side of the bolt head so often makes for a loose fit in the cylinder notch when the bolt isn't all the way in the notch. You can't tell it happened unless the cylinder stays turned a little out of alignment and that rarely happens.
Anywhooooo.....I used to discuss that with a gunsmith at "Ball accuracy". Tom Ball is the only gunsmith I found that knew right off what I was trying to explain. He already knew it.
You would think that the cam of the hammer coming down and friction pushing down on the boltl leg would push the nolt head firmly into the cylinder notch. That's how a gun that works right does it but......when the bolt leg tension squirts the bolt leg like a slippery bar of soap to the path of least resistance that squirt squirts the bolt leg up on it's own power and gets the bolt leg ahead of the cams fall because the bolt leg squirts upwards and moves the bolts heaqd downward.
When a gun does that it can be seen if yer quick of eye with the cylinder off and work the action as slow as you can and you can see the bolts head very quickly retract into the frame some and then pop back up......instead of just stay up as it should. I probablysaid it "not quite right " the first time around. It doesn't make the cylinder over rotate when the hammer goes back but can move the cylinder into slightly over rotated as the hammer falls but that over rotate is from firing with the locked in battery" being loose and probably a slight alignment of the chamber to the bore. Sometimes the cylinder will stay nout of alignment enough to see it happened but usually not.
The other thing about the bolt bolster/block helping to correct chamber misalignment is merely moving the bolt head a little in the right direction to correct alignment and the bolt bolster part and maybe a flat shim between the bolt head and frame holding the bolt in a position where the alignment is true.
I hope I said it right this time.  My shoulder hurts from typin.
The bolt block/bolster being fit properly will bolster or stabilize the bolt head so it stays perpendicular to the centerline of the gun and will not let the bolt head move or cant any at all . Therefore there will be no canting of the bolt head from the force of the cylinder to use the force vector created by "even the slightest cant of the bolt" to move the bolt head down or retracted into the frame instead of standing tall as it is meant to work properly to reliably stop the cylinder from over rotating. The bolt block/bolster saves wear to cylinder notches because if the bolt head can cant "any at all" it can hit right on the sharp corner to  the notch edge and begin the "peen" wear of that area......that so many old guns have a bad case of.
Any single action used long enough,especially in CASS shooting that stresses a gun beyond it's designed purpose, will develope an over rotation from wear and the fact the tolerances by design are loose. A bolt block/bolster ,whatever it's said intended initial purpose, is the number one best way to insure longer more reliable functioning and more longevity where the bolt/cylinder notches and over rotation are concerned. It's simple mechanics and that's all. That is my opinion and my advice. Want your single action to last longer and be more reliable then have a bolt bolster/block made for it(especially the Italian cap&ballers).
That list of possible causes in that shop manual Raven noted above is incomplete. The author of that book didn't work on enough Italian Cap&Ballers.
Anywhoooo......this exchange has been interesting and ,I bet, helpful to some people. I wish they had this internet stuff back when I was a youngin. Nite folks. I'm tired and off to bed.
It was down right polite of Raven to wish me no offense. That's the mark of a Gentleman and a Scholar. Did I spell that right?

[Raven]

Rifle,
I'm a very visual guy, and your last discription made it much more visual for me. Thank you.

Before California really started going down hill I spent several months each year teaching first year gunsmiths at Lassen College. The thing I mss most about it is several gunsmiths standing around with the gun opened up discussing things like this.

I probably write about the way I talk but when you can't see the person your talking to I don't think it comes accross the same. I'm sure I annoyed Mako when I told him he gives me a headache, he couldn't see the grin on my face and it didn't come accross well. I crave a challenge and to be challenged, so these discussions are great.

I agree that Kuhnhausen missed some things, great book any way. And in my opinion the gunsmiths who will work on Italian guns have a wider range of single action knowledge that the experts who will only work on Colts.

We as Single Action smiths are running into the same kind of problems that faced 1911 smiths after WWII. Before the war a 1911 might fire 100's of rounds a year and the smiths had all the problems that would pop up solved. After the war shooters started shooting 1000's of rounds per year and a whole new set of problems started to appear.

Unfortunately Cowboy shooters are not yet willing to pay for a well fitted gun from the factory. If we could get a well fitted gun from the factory.. bolt windows in the proper place, screw holes correctly located, hammer stops in place etc. We could buid real Race guns. As it is it is expensive to correct the problems and while the Cowboy Shooters want them solved they aren't willing to pay for it.

I for one would like to continue these discussions, and that includes you Mako. If the number crunching gets too much for me I'll sic Walt on ya

Rifle, There are not enough Single Action smiths out there. Why don't you get your FFL and put out your shingle? Our shop is so busy all we do is work on Percussion and Conversion SA's besides manufacturing Kirst Konverters.

Raven

[rifle]

Raven, you are good for shootin the s--t  about guns. I have fixed what seems like a lot of single actions and have done the worst of the worst since almost all were/are cap&ballers. I have people give me such enormous praise for my work it actually embarrasses me. The Belgian Colt 1860's are a specialty with me. I love those old suedo Colts. I just did one for a gentleman in Florida. The gun actually had the arbor wrenched out by a gunsmith without taking out the lock pin that is in a different place than an Italian gun. It was an unfixable mess in more than one way. The cylinder was scarred up from bolt marks and from "throw by" too.
I'm just saying that I do work some single action guns but no more "Shingle". I did have a muzzleloader shop for awhile for a hobby. Made muzzleloaders and sold all the do-dabs that go with it like factory rifles too. I started fixing cap&ballers back then when people got wind of the fact there was a guy out on a farm that fixed them fer people.
I don't do the gunsmithing for a living since I'm retired so I take all  the time it takes. If I were paid I would be working for .05 an hour.
Annywhoooo...I saved another abused Centennial Colt 1860 Army for posterity. I put the gun back(using the original arbor and a mig welder since original parts should be on a collector gun) together as tight annd new-ish as  I could. The owner said he took it out of the box and had a "thrill" shoot through his whole body. 
The owner told me he thought it was back together better than when it was new. He wrote some really wonderful things about my work on the gun. Every one I have done is like that. The people are acrually thrilled and consider the guns as precious items once they get them back from me. Not putting a feather in my cap but explaining something about me.....
My real joy is the contentment and joy of the owners of the guns. My personal satisfaction is the happiness of the owner of the gun after it's worked by me. The gun being back with some worth for posterity is a satisfaction too. The people that report back about the satisfying way the range time went is very satisfying to me too.
Anywhooooo....I have worked on peoples cap&ballers but not fer the money but the personnal satisfaction and the challenge. Like i've said I've done the worst of the worst for people. If I got yer kinda money I would have to get about $2,000 for fixing one of those wrecks. I don't do it fer the money though.
When a person describes a gun I did ,like a Belgian Colt wreck, as,"the most smooth and positive feeling best timed and functioning cap&ball I ever pulled the hammer back on", I get my reward. I know you know what I meansince you probably get the same thing all thye time. It's just too bad you have to make a living and charge for the work. One thing I know....the saying,"easier said than done", really applies to gunsmith work and how a lot of people don't do it so they don't know what actually goes into gunsmithing work. Gunsmithing is one of the most demanding trades there is but one oof the most rewarding also. Worth every penny a person has to charge to stay afloat in a very demmanding and artful trade.
To keep this on track I have to mention something about "throw by" so I will....I  know you (and others here) are excellent gunsmiths and can fix er up just fine when the ole gun has the "throw-by". I can tell by what some of you say who is a good gunsmith of single actions.  You ain't feedin Momma and the kids and dogs by doing shoddy work.   I really liked the Paterson wiith the long barrel you did up featured on the cover of "Guns of the Old West" magazine. Love that finish. I did an experiment with what they say is the original way the cap&ballers were finished with the hot coals. Got a nice ,not glossy, durable finish. I'll post about it someday. It's cool lookin. Black but cool lookin. What's weird the parts have sat on the self for over a year and little oil on them and "no rust" on the parts. Really easy to do too. Hot but easy. 
I  gots ta go and get to work on a Belgian Colt I had to set the barrel back on and bottom the arbor properly and set the cylinder gap and work the whole action and time it and all. I like the "positive stop" at the end of the cycle where it locks up to full cock and the bolt snaps in simultaneously and the hammer has a dead stop to it right there. No over travel of the hammer as much as I can work into it. I am polishing the parts to be Nitre blued that really dark dark blue black. That is worth the money to have done it's so beautiful. No "throw by" to this gun anymore....I didn't put a bolt bolster in it yet though.

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy Raven,

If you get the chance, take a look at the STI Texican. $1300 and it's race ready, yet very traditional. I've seen an early example and it was truly amazing, for less than the price of a tuned Colt.

Reverend Chase

[Pettifogger]

Howdy Raven,

If you get the chance, take a look at the STI Texican. $1300 and it's race ready, yet very traditional. I've seen an early example and it was truly amazing, for less than the price of a tuned Colt.

Reverend Chase

STI gave up on the Texican.  I talked to them at the SHOT show and they said the project was dead.

[Raven]

Just a guess, but they probably found that they wern't making a profit at that price.

[Mako]

Howdy Raven,

If you get the chance, take a look at the STI Texican. $1300 and it's race ready, yet very traditional. I've seen an early example and it was truly amazing, for less than the price of a tuned Colt.

Reverend Chase

Reverend,
The Texican was never anything other than "early examples."  They were all actually prototypes even though the industry acted otherwise.

I was talking to Dawson the other day about Skinner retiring and what Dillon was going to do.  STI has had some ongoing quality issues and they hope Tim is the answer.  He was at Springfield before his stint at Brownells, and the word is that they are going to change some of the manufacturing processes to make it more like a real production line. 

Even though it is no longer in Fred's garage, the manufacturing techniques really hadn't changed that much.

Speaking of Tripp, Virgil is moving back to central Texas from Alpine and he's planning on making magazines the way he was 25 years ago.  Actually not a whole lot different from how they are doing it in Georgetown.

Dillon basically dropped anything that wasn't related to their core business.  They really had no business jumping off into the revolver market, that was one of Dave's detours.

Regards,
Mako

[Fox Creek Kid]

Mako, my source told me that STI did not actually make the Texican, but rather used the same company that EDM'd the Hartford Remington. Truth or BS? 

[Mako]

Mako, my source told me that STI did not actually make the Texican, but rather used the same company that EDM'd the Hartford Remington. Truth or BS?  

I'll ask.  They may have sourced some of the parts from someone I'm not aware of.  Everyone who worked on it as far as I know were either STI employees or former employees. They did get barrel blanks and machine them.  They wired a bunch of the parts because it's easier.  I think they sent the frames and hammers out to Turnbull.  There are many hours of hand work in each of the ones they produced.

~Mako

[Reverend P. Babcock Chase]

Howdy again,

I'm pretty sure that the guns were made by the EDM outfit that was Hartford Armoury. The ones that I saw were being shown by the guy who ran the outfit and he know intimately what went into them. He shoots at a couple of the local clubs.

Reverend Chase

[Mako]

Howdy again,

I'm pretty sure that the guns were made by the EDM outfit that was Hartford Armoury. The ones that I saw were being shown by the guy who ran the outfit and he know intimately what went into them. He shoots at a couple of the local clubs.

Reverend Chase

Reverend,
I'm not sure what an "EDM outfit" is, and I've owned 7 EDM machines, 2 sinkers and 5 wires.  Can you elaborate.

I spoke with another person who works at STI (used to work for me).  He wasn't one of the gunsmiths working on it, he's strictly a modular frame guy.  But, he told me they had a shop in Round Rock make some electrodes and burn the rear radius.  I'm pretty sure I know who it had to be and I'll call Todd and Dorsey Monday.  That was the only thing besides the Case hardening that was done by non STI people.  Dawson did some of the final finishing but he's sort of an employee.  They get him to do contract work still.

Regards,
Mako

[Raven]

Mako,
Just curious.....What shop do you own or work for?
Raven

[chunik bair]

 Hi Guys

 back to orginal question, I have tried another bolt spring, ( out of Uberti SAA clone), and still over rotates , so will try and get another bolt or try to find a smith here in N.Z that can get gun running right, will let you know how it goes

Thanks

[Mako]

Raven,
That was a different lifetime ago, but I was there from the beginnings in the '80s.

Unless you are a surgeon or a researcher you wouldn’t recognize the consortium I am in.  Technically speaking I have been “loaned out” to two of our companies for the last year and a half, it’s funny, I actually have three offices right now.

~Mako

[Raven]

Sorry Mako,

But I don't know any of the history to know what you are refering to.

Raven

[rifle]

Chunic Bair, Getting a new bolt is a good idea. Getting  a bolt spring especially made for your gun too.
First and formost you'd have to takke a look at you  cylinder to ascertaijn the condition of the locking notches. If they are bad it will take some doing to get it right. Cheaper toget  a new cylinder and fit it. Anywhoooo....I don't remember you saying whether or not the cylinder notches are in good shape. If they aren't then you gotta make them right one way or another.
Anywhooo.....if the notches are alright then you should be able to get a new bolt and fit it yourself with the help of people here advising you. Of course the bolt you have mqay well be fine enough to work with to get  the gun to work right.
If you lived in my neighborhood I'd either tell you  to take it  to Raven and his shop or bring it over to my place and I'd just fix it fer you fer free and let you see what was done so next time you'd know to do it yerself.
Raven would probably fix it fer  a fair price and get it done inside an hour. Me.....I'd fix it fer free and take several hours. I work slow. That's the first thing I do when fixing a gun.....slow down.
Well.....hope you get er done soon and get to shootin.

[Fox Creek Kid]

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http://www.clementscustomguns.com/howitsmade.html