When Did Colt Go Smokeless

Old Doc · January 22, 2011, 09:25:47 PM

Save me from looking this up. I have a Colt SAA .45, which according to my factory letter, was shiipped in 1900. Is this gun smokeless or black powder?

St. George · January 23, 2011, 08:20:57 AM

Smokeless.

In 1896 - at about serial number 165,000 - Colt was building revolvers for smokeless use (hence, the transverse cylinder pin).

At about serial number 175,000 - Colt 'warranted' them for smokeless.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

Old Doc · January 23, 2011, 12:06:16 PM

Checks out. My serial number is 2010XX. Thanks.

Trailrider · January 23, 2011, 12:44:38 PM

The cross-frame cylinder catch release is NOT the indicator for Colt's warranting the Single Action for smokeless powder. It was actually the serial number range of about 175,000, c. 1901. There were Colt's on either side of that number that had the angled screw through the frame or that had the cross-frame, spring-loaded catch, as they didn't waste leftover parts.

I would still not overstress these early smokeless guns by going too hot and heavy on the smokeless loads. How hot and heavy I can't really say, but I would stay with mid-level loads with bullets in the 230-250 gr. range.

Old Doc · January 23, 2011, 04:08:55 PM

According to "Colt's Dates of Manufacture 1837-1978" by R.L. Wilson published in 1983, serial number 175,000 corresponds to the start of production in the year 1898. Production year 1901 started with number 203,000. This corresponds to the Colt letter I have with my gun (201,0XX) saying it shipped in October 1900. It further lists number 192,000 the earliest gun built in 1900 as when "revolvers built to handle smokeless powder".
Information on this subject in Kopec's book, states that there is a notation in Colt's shipping records, specifically stating that guns numbered between 175,000 and 180,000 (1898) "are NOT guaranteed for smokeless powder". I take that to mean guns numbered beyond 180,000 ARE safe with smokeless powder. Kopec further states that there is a misconception among collectors, that guns from serial number 165,000 (1896) on are safe with smokeless powder and then concludes by advising extreme care in using handloads in pre-1898 guns.
So I read one source, Wilson, as concluding guns built for smokeless powder begin with serial number 192,000 in 1900 and Kopec concluding serial number 180,000 sometime in 1898.
And I was trying to avoid looking it up!

Driftwood Johnson · January 23, 2011, 04:49:10 PM

Howdy

I agree with Trailrider. The presence of a spring loaded cylinder pin latch is not the indicator of whether or not a SAA should be fired with Smokeless Powder. The latches started appearing before Colt factory warrantied the SAA for Smokeless Powder. As early as 1892 on some target models. By 1896 it was phased in as a standard production feature. According to Kuhnhausen, Colt did not factory warranty the SAA for Smokeless Powder until 1900 at SN 192,000. Colt began stamping the Verified Proof marking on the left side of trigger guards sometime in 1901, indicating that the revolver was factory warrantied for Smokeless Powder. The Verified Proof marking is the letters VP in a triangle.

Like this:

If the Verified Proof mark is present on the left front of the trigger guard, it is OK to shoot Smokeless in it, but still, the loads should be mild if it is an old gun.

Fox Creek Kid · January 23, 2011, 07:06:15 PM

Old Doc, if you have the Kopec book why are you asking us here? It is the 'Bible" for the SAA.

Old Doc · January 25, 2011, 08:39:26 AM

Quote from: Fox Creek Kid on January 23, 2011, 07:06:15 PM
Old Doc, if you have the Kopec book why are you asking us here? It is the 'Bible" for the SAA.

Read initial post.."save me from looking this up." Didn't work! It may be the bible but according to Fox Creek Kid, it conflicts with Kuhnhausen, whose book I also have but have not consulted as I thoght Kopec would have nailed it.

St. George · January 25, 2011, 09:09:40 AM

Well then - add Keith Cochran's 'Colt's Peacemaker Encyclopedia' to your list, since he drew from Kopec - and Kuhnhausen copied from both of them.

The transverse cylinder pin latch is a general indication of the 'smokeless frame'.

Colt didn't 'warrant' for smokeless until serial number 175,000 as stated, but they were building for smokeless use prior to that.

As an aside - Cochran and Wilkinson and Kopec all wrote separately about the later Post-War Single Actions and the military ones as well.

You can own a helluva lot of purely Colt Single Action Army-related references that are all 'bibles' in and of themselves...

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

shrapnel · February 19, 2011, 10:34:22 PM

Lots of unsubstantiated opinions here...

This table is from R. L. Wilson's book "COLT An American Legend"

This table clearly shows the transverse base pin lock added in 1892 and serial # 144,000 much sooner than the smokeless powder guns which were not introduced until 1900.

The book "Shooting Colt single Actions" by Mike Venturino also states the same data including the tendency to align smokeless revolvers with the transverse latch with "smokeless" guns, but incorrectly so...

Hangtown Frye · March 09, 2011, 02:34:25 PM

The first SAA I had was a serial number 165XXX, with the transverse pin. Lucky for me someone had, at some point in the past replaced the .45 Colt cylinder with a Christy .45 ACP cylinder. I later bought a replacement .45 Colt cylinder from Christy's and used the gun rather extensively until it was (gack!) stolen around 1979 or so. It was an interesting old piece, with very mis-matched serial numbers between frame, trigger guard and backstrap. (I had always fantasized that it was an "Artillery Colt", but of course it was way too late a manufacture, no martial marks, etc. But hope springs eternal in the hearts of Youth!) Anyway, in later years I have always been glad that it DID have a replacement cylinder, for even though I always used moderate smokeless loads in it (when I wasn't shooting BP!), I sometimes wonder about just how close I may have come to disaster. Hopefully no one since then has, either!

Cheers!

Gordon