Information on Uberti .45-75 W.C.F.

[Cimarron]

I am in the market for a '76 Winchester replica and I have a question about the chamber dimensions of the Uberti .45-75's.  I have been shooting BPCR's for more that 30 years and currently shoot .50-2 1/2" Sharps, .50-70 Govt., .45-70 Govt., .44 W.C.F. and the ubiquitous .45 Colt.  I have been reading the CASCITY posts on the '76 for several weeks now and I have also corrisponded with George Thompson, Product Mannager at Stoger Industries for Uberti Replicas.  I guess my question boils down to, how different is the Uberti chamber for .45-75 than the SAAMI specification for .45-75 W.C.F.?  Someone had posted some pictures of fired cases from the Uberti with infired cases, but I can't seem to find them now.  The .45-75 is my first choice for chambering in this gun since it was the original chambering in the '76 Winchesters.  Is it possible to get an Uberti in the SAAMI/original dimension .45-75 WCF?  Thanks for any help.

[McLernon]

The Uberti has a shorter neck and a more distinct shoulder angle. It holds more powder too. BAC has dies for both configuration.

Mc

[larryo_1]

FWIW:
I prefer the neck configuration when fired in my Uberti '76 as, yes, it holds more powder and, to me, seems easier to load.  I sent a fired case to RCBS and they made me a Trim Die for that fired case.  All my brass was then fire-formed to that configuration.  Glad I did what I did.  The case capacity that I told Grizzley Adams about was between 5 and 6 grains of increase.

[Martini450]

Larryo_1, does the shorter neck on the Uberti case, as compared to a regular 45-75 WCF case, leave enough room for a grease cookie?   

[larryo_1]

Martini450

[larryo_1]

Martini450:
Yep!  It sure does.  My load that I have had some good results consists of 76.0 grains of Swiss ½, a .034 card wad and then my Hoch Custom 350 grain bullet that is cast at 16:1.  That Swiss is such that, in my opinion, there is not too much compression which I don't really worry about anyway.  I do "Tink" the case tho when putting the powder so that it settles good.  I used to use drop tubes with my old Sharps but found that, again, in my opinion, "Tinking" the case works just as well as long as you do it with a wood dowel or such.

[McLernon]

I found that a grease cookie worked well but later dropped it when I started making the BAC 45-75 boolit (350 gr.) with crimping groove for a COL of 2.25 inches. ...........BUT I had to use a blow tube that I cobbled together using a shortened 45-70 case in order to get good accuracy.

Mc

[larryo_1]

FWIW:
I have used a grease cookie but just use a cardboard wad now.  I really couldn't see that much difference between the two.  Maybe I just got a weird rifle?  Both the 76 grain and thhe 72 grain loads of Swiss seem to work equally well.  the 72 grain load don't use as much powder!   But both are a bang to shoot.

[Cimarron]

Thanks for the responses.  Does anyone know how much the neck of the Uberti .45-75 is shorter than the original WCF?  The neck of a couple of original .45-75 cartridges I have here measures .656.  Judging from the comments there is still enough room for card and or grease wads under the bullet without any problems.   

[Martini450]

I have two boxes of Ten-X 45-75 ammo, one that I've fired through my Uberti and the other which is still factory loaded.  According to my RCBS caliper, the neck of the unfired brass is .555".  This unfired cartridge should be SAAMI spec.  The neck of the fired brass, which was fire formed in my Uberti to their chamber dimensions, measures .420".  This would give us a loss of .135" in neck length with the Uberti chamber. 

To the question of seating depth and grease and/or card wads, I defer to Larryo_1 and McLernon, having not yet loaded for my rifle.  Right after purchasing my rifle, I did buy a box of GOEX Black Dawge's 45 caliber 350 grain RNFP bullets just to get started with reloading for this caliber, and those bullets measure about .465" from the base to the crimping groove.  That would leave a little bit of room for a wad in the SAAMI spec case, but not in the Uberti spec; in that case, the base of the bullet would intrude on the powder space by about .045".  So, with the bullets I have on hand, I don't think we can use a card or grease cookie, but it sounds like Larryo_1 and McLernon have molds that would correct this problem.  I'm wondering if the bullets I have on hand are made specifically for 45-70, and would therefore not be suitable for the 45-75. 

Now, back your original questions about whether or not you can get a Uberti with the original SAAMI 45-75 WCF spec.  I have been trying to get an answer to this question myself, having returned my rifle to have the barrel replaced because of the chamber dimension discrepancy.  I bought my rifle from Taylor's, and they've had a hard time getting a definitive answer from Uberti (Taylor's is doing everything they can to make this right, by the way).  I've called around to other importers, and have gotten different answers.  Buffalo Arms doesn't think Uberti has changed to the SAAMI spec, Cimarron assures me that Uberti has changed to the SAAMI spec, and Ten-X Ammunition says they believe Uberti has gone to the correct SAAMI spec.  I wish I had a more definitive answer to this question; maybe someone else on the forum could shed some light on this? 

For myself, if it turns out that Uberti is still not making their 45-75 chambers to SAAMI spec, I'll just get my rifle back and order the Uberti dies from Buffalo Arms.  Sounds like the 45-75 shooters on this forum have been getting good performance out of theirs.

[Cimarron]

Martini450, thank your for giving me some concrete figures on just how much neck is lost in the .45-75 UCF cartridge.  I suppose it is good to get the 5-7 grain increase in case capacity at the loss of a little neck.  I just sent you a PM.   

[Cimarron]

A factory drawing of the .45-75 WCF

[Cimarron]

Well I thought I would update things a little.  I have been emailing Uberti in Italy over the last couple of weeks.  They have been very helpfull and seem to want to please the customer.  I brought up the chamber dimension question and they sent me a tool room drawing of the current chamber reamer that they are using.  If they are using this reamer, it appears that they may have corrected the chamber dimensions to SAAMI specs.  One of the fellas I met here sent me a fired case from his Uberti and I took it with me the the Tulsa Gun Show today.  Well, out of 4000 tables and 11 acres of guns, I found one dealer that had two Uberti '76's.  He was cooperative enough to let me try the fire formed case in both guns.  It did not fit either gun.  I liked about .200" of going all the way in the chamber.  These two guns had been shipped from Cimarron in the last six months so I am cautiously optomistic that the chamber question is answered.  I will be calling Cimarron in the next week or so as per Uberti's suggestion, to see what guns are available.   

[Roscoe Coles]

Interesting.  I just got off the phone with the Uberti brand manager, who I have met before, and he told me that he had been unable to get the factory to adopt the SAMI spec as the Europeans had a different standard, taken off of a French drawing. 

[Cimarron]

I recieved a similar response from a Mr. George Thompson, Uberti Product manager at Stoger Industries.  I then came across the Uberti Italy website and decided to give them a try.  I corrisponded with Suzanne Webb who was very helpful and seemed very interested in answering my questions.  She even sent me the tool room drawing (with dimensions) of the chamber reamer.  I contacted Chris Duncan at Cimarron Firearms and he confirmed the problem with the earlier .45-75 guns.  He also said that the problem had been corrected.  Like I said earlier I tried a fired case in a new 2009 production gun (Cimarron Firearms) and it would not chamber all the way.  This is all that I have been able to come up with.  I hope to order a new Cimarron 1876 in the next few weeks with the understanding that they are now made with the correct .45-75 WCF chamber.

[Cimarron]

Correction to above post.  It was Chris Ballard not Chris Duncan that I contacted at Cimarron Firearms.

[FriscoCounty]

Is this just an Uberti issue?

I just acquired a chappie 1876 in .45-75; well almost, the dealer still has it, the California 10 day wait still ain't up.  Anyway, in anticipation, I've gone out and bought all the stuff to reload  - Jamison brass, Lyman dies, RCBS mould, you know the works - 'cause the only more expensive retail ammunition I've seen is the stuff that goes in elephant guns.

Now y'all is getting me worried about what else I might need and whether I might need custom dies to keep from overworking or damaging the brass from the repeated fire forming and sizing that would result from an oversized chamber and smaller dies.

[FriscoCounty]

  Never mind....   Should'a done my homework and read the other posts on the subject.  Now I know it only applies to Uberti.

[Asa Smith]

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f349/asasmith/100_0359.jpg
Ten X factory load in Jamison brass on left, fire brass from Cimarron Uberti (before it was rebarreled) on right.

[Hobie]

The fired case here


so you can compare to my Chaparral's fired cases (of course this photo shows the whole gamut of case forming but look at the fire formed case)...


The Ten-X ammo blows out/substantially changes shape even in my Chaparral carbine.  I don't remember off-hand, but is there a direct comparison of fired cases from the various makers with a chart of dimensional differences.

PS - I know, I formed the bulk of my brass from .50 Alaskan but don't have any photos!  Need to fix that.