Total Newbie question.

[kflach]

I'm a brand new BP 58 Remmy owner. I haven't been to any kind of organizational event yet with any organization, so please pardon my ignorance.

What is the difference between SASS, CAS, and NCOWS? I've seen the material on the web sites, but in practical, simple, real world terms, what's the difference?

[Books OToole]

CAS = Cowboy Action Shooting
     That includes both SASS & NCOWS

SASS = Single Action Shooting Society

NCOWS = National Congress of Old West Shootists

[WAS = Western Action Shooting  (This is also a blanket term)]

SASS and NCOWS are two different CAS organizations with different rules and styles.


I hope that helps.

Books

[kflach]

By styles do you mean one is more competitive and one is more social, do you mean they shoot different kinds of guns, or do you mean they have different types of competitions?

[Advertising]

[Will Ketchum]

By styles do you mean one is more competitive and one is more social, do you mean they shoot different kinds of guns, or do you mean they have different types of competitions?

All of the above .  At one time SASS had a copy write in the term CAS but I have been told that that ran out and wasn't renewed.  WAS is what we started calling our sport in NCOWS during those first days of the SASS copy write.

One way to explain the difference between SASS and NCOWS is to look at their roots. SASS was founded by a group of IPSC shooters who decided that it would be fun to shoot IPSC (Internationa Pistol Shooting Competition, if I remember correctly) type matches with cowboy guns.  NCOWS was started by a group of Iowa Buckskiiners who were interested in the history of the Old West and wanted to try to recreat the era, much as they were doing in buckskinning, with their rendivouzes.  So SASS was always more interested in the competitive aspects and NCOWS the historical.


I hope that helps some. 

Will Ketchum

[Books OToole]

By styles do you mean one is more competitive and one is more social, do you mean they shoot different kinds of guns, or do you mean they have different types of competitions?

The basics are the same.  SASS and NCOWS allow and disallow different old west guns and copies.  The penalty for misses in SASS is 5 seconds and for NCOWS a miss costs 10 seconds.  [If you miss really fast in SASS you can win.  Not so in NCOWS or a real gunfight.]

NCOWS is a little more particular about attire; but the minimums are easy to meet.


Books

[River City John]

Plus NCOWS allows double actions in competition.

[Will Ketchum]

and extractors in the shotgun.  and you can load repeating shotguns with the required amount of shells...on the clock.

Will Ketchum

[kflach]

Do either have competitions - or even just fun activities - for people with just one BP revolver (it's the only gun I have so far)?

[Books OToole]

Do either have competitions - or even just fun activities - for people with just one BP revolver (it's the only gun I have so far)?

If you show up at an NCOWS match with your one BP revolver, someone will most likely loan you everything else you'll need.
They are a great bunch of people.

[Not that SASS people aren't, it's just that I have much more experience with NCOWS folks.]

Books

[Pancho Peacemaker]

SASS and NCOWS are similar on the surface, but founded on different philosophies and have grown in unique directions.

My comparative view on SASS & NCOWS

SASS:  Focus is on competition & speed.  Targets are bigger and closer.  Dress rules are a little more relaxed and broader in scope (you can dress in a B-Western outfit.)  Some SASS Regional Matches have a "party" atmosphere to them with dancing and such. 
The "legal" list of acceptible firearms is more relaxed (and becoming more so as time goes on.)  You'll see some side matches where early post-1900 semiauto 1911's are used as well  (known as Wild Bunch Matches).

NCOWS:  Focus is on historic authenticity.  Competition style is more based on accuracy than speed (although you still do shoot 'on the clock').   Targets tend to be smaller and further distance (sometimes moving).  Dress should adhere to the manner that was seen 1865 to 1899.  Same with firearms.  Replica firearms are allowed, but they should not be modified outside the realm of technologies seen in the Old West (i.e. no short stroke kit on your levergun, etc...)

I shoot in both organizations and enjoy them both.  Our local club is affiliated with both organizations.  At our club about 85% of our membership shoot in both NCOWS and SASS. 

You will rub elbows with some of the best people when attending matches with either group.  Cowboy shooters in general are some of the most pleasant & generous folks you can find.

I am a fan and student of history so NCOWS is drawing more attention from me as time goes on.

Pancho

[Rowdy Fulcher]

Pancho
You hit the nail on the head . We love the Historical part . We love sitting around the fire and talking with friends .
Shooting your first match clean while shooting black powder . Our helping a new shooter with a problem they are having .

[Cole Bluesteele]

Everything Pancho stated is dead on target.  I have been participating in SASS matches for ten years.  I am the Territorial Governor for two SASS clubs.  I was intrumental in getting our SASS club to become the first NCOWS Posse in Texas and I am our Posse's Territorial Representative to the NCOWS Congress.  I state the above only so that you might know that I have been around awhile and so that you might have an indication of the accuracy of what I am about to share with you.

In addition to Pancho's comments, I would add the following:

A new shooter attending a SASS match would possibly and probably notice a wide range of clothing worn by the participants.  Anything from accurate Old West period outfits to Hollywood movie outfits to modern rodeo attire will be represented.  At an NCOWS match only the Old West attire would be seen. 

At a SASS match you would see a numerous firearms that were not around in the last half of the 1800's and a large number of the firearms being shot will have been modified in ways that no 19th century firearm was ever altered.  At an NCOWS match the firearms will be include a wider variety of Old West firearms which are also more representative of the types used in the later part of the 19th century and they will have no extensive modifications.

One of the nicer things about NCOWS is the Working Cowboy class, that requires one revolver and one rifle.  So the entry cost to NCOWS is less that SASS's two revolvers, a rifle and shotgun.

In brief, if you are more interested in the Old West, and shooting Old West firearms, you might just prefer NCOWS.  Both are competitive shooting venues, I know I am just as competitive at an NCOWS match as at a SASS match, but NCOWS has a greater emphasis on the Old West period.

[kflach]

Thanks for all the replies - it's been helpful getting all these perspectives. Both organizations sound like a lot of fun and I'll have to check them both out.

['Monterrey' Jack Brass]

Kflach,

To add to the mix, though what has been posted already is spot on: To a non-shooting person or someone who isn’t into history – and even to some that are into history – there aren’t a whole lot of major differences between the organizations. Both NCOWS and SASS are without question shooting sports first - same electronic timers, same boiler plate targets, similar rules, similar stages, and no compromises on safety of any sort. Though there are some differences as you’ll see as you’re exposed to WAS/CAS. For example NCOWS stages are generally geared more to make one take better aim, hence the focus on accuracy instead of plain speed, SASS stages are generally geared for speed (in my observation).

Having said that, upon closer inspection, there is a lot more room to investigate the non-gun/shooting aspects of the old west era within NCOWS more so than in SASS. If you want to use only two guns instead of the four SASS requires go for it – NCOWS can accommodate. If you’re a competitive sort who likes to shoot fast and challenge yourself then both NCOWS and SASS would work for you – though in NCOWS you gotta hit ‘em as fast as you shoot 'em or your score will suffer (reference Books’ comment). Both are good organizations though one or the other might offer more what you seek in a shooting sport. It all depends on what you’re looking for in the big picture.

If you’re into history more than the gun thing, no problem as NCOWS can accommodate. An extreme example of this is a personal story I’ll relate. At the last NCOWS National I left the shooting line on day 2 after stage 2 to go back to camp and bake some bread (using one skillet on top of another to fashion an ad hoc oven) over the fire to have with supper. After the shoot was over and some of the fellows filtered back into the primitive camp I didn’t hear one mocking comment or get one funny look because I didn’t finish the shoot – all I got were questions about how the bread turned out and subsequent interesting discussion. So whether your bag is shooting or history NCOWS will accommodate and encourage you and it’s what you want to make of it.

In closing, and if there is anything major to get out my post here it is: Both NCOWS and SASS people are good people, whether ‘gamers’ – you’ll soon find out what this word means – or poor and slow shooters like me. Members of both groups are good Americans, have solid values, are helpful and will assist you in need, are patriotic & law-abiding, handle firearms safely, and certainly support the 2nd Amendment. Though there may be some differences between the organizations the people who comprise both of them are excellent as a rule and some of the finest I’ve ever met without question.

YMH&OS,

Brass

[James Hunt]

Very well stated Brass, amen.

[Cole Bluesteele]

Brass,

You hit the bullseye with this post.  Now y'all know why us Texas boys enjoyed shooting with you at the National.  Now I know why you didn't tell us why you left.  We'd cleaned you out of your vitals. 

Glad to know you.

Cole Bluesteele

[kflach]

I must admit that as someone just coming into shootiing (this is my first gun ever) fun is more important to me than competition. This looks sooooo much more fun than just putting holes in paper targets at the local range! I fit into the forty-niner category so there's no way I'd be competitive with the young'uns. I mean young-er 'uns.

My biggest frustration at this point is that the Texas Ten Horns - the nearest NCOWS club - is around an hour and a half away. I'm *not* a morning person, so I don't know if I'd be safe if I got up early enough to get there. Of course, I suppose that drive would give the coffee plenty of time to get working <grin>.

There are 2 SASS clubs within 30 minutes of me, one of which meets this weekend. I'd already talked the missus into visiting it this weekend before I'd even heard of NCOWS. I will get out to see the Texas Ten Horns within the next month. I'm under the impression that Cole Bluesteele is a member there. I promise I'll look you up when I get there.

Obviously I'll be around here as well.

[Pancho Peacemaker]

Regarding the Ten Horns:

If mornings are rough for you, wait till September.  During the Summer months (June, July, August) we start our safety meeting early at 8:30 am.   We do this to get an early start and beat the heat.

Once the cooler weather rolls in (usually September), we'll roll back to normal hours and start our safety meeting at 9:30.

Also, you are welcome to come out and spectate any time.  We have a SASS match this Saturday and NCOWS on Sunday.  You'll meet many of the same Cowboys both days.  Our summer matches usually conclude around 1 pm.  Personally, I think for a new shooter, it helps to come out and 'get the lay of the land' at a match before you dive in.


Pancho

[Tascosa Joe]

Cole and I both live fairly close to you and would be glad to help you get there if need be.  Admittedly you have to get up pretty early to get to the range to help set up in the summber.  The cooler months are not too bad.  I think I have been a member of Lone Star since 91 or 92 and CVV from time to time since their inseption.  It sure seems further than 30 minutes down to their range but they will both treat you right and you will have a fine time.  If you ever decide to drive the 90+ to our range you will be welcome.  Come on out.

T Joe

[kflach]

I'm planning on being at CVV this Saturday - I live in Arlington so it's close. September isn't that far off so that change in time sounds good for hitting the Ten Horns. And Pancho's got it right - I'm getting "the lay of the land" right now.

Before I participate I need to make sure and know how to use everything *safely.* I haven't even touched anything other than my 58 Remmy so there's no way I would actually participate in a match right now even if someone loaned me their guns. I'm hoping to meet people that can show me, over time, how to handle the different guns properly. I'm young enough to be quite enthusiastic, but old enough to know that some things - like guns - need to be treated with a lot of respect.

I'm sure I'll meet ya'll live and in person sooner or later!