Bullet stabilization

[Delmonico]

Oh I don't think what you're doing to be that overboard, the majority of the bullets I cast after the mold and melt get to running smooth fall in that close, I'm just to lazy to throw the ones that don't make it that tight back and do them over. That's why I allow the 1 gr .
 Going to get one of the Cabine Tree mold handles, lots of folks have plenty of good things to say about them. Seems the way they lock down the same everytime, they make for some awfully consistant bullets.

Let us know how that mould works out, I'm hoping in the next year or so to have more time to do some things, last 3-4 years it often has been a choice of either the cook camp or shooting on my weekends off.  The cook camp most often wins.

[Ranch 13]

Well, he was asking why some loads will appear to be off trajectory at relativly close ranges, yet be back on trajectory further down range.   Transonic buffeting combined with gyroscopic precession is the answer, as most BP loadings go transonic in the 100 to 200 yard range.

 Well that's the whole point. They don't, if they're not stable at 100 yds they never will be.
 Group's won't shrink as the distance gets further either.
 Something else going on. Solid info on light,wind, mirage and what targets were being fired at at what range,and some specifics about actual group size, would go along ways to explaining his reported anomoly.

[Ranch 13]

Del if you ever get a chance to break loose I'ld sure urge you to get to one of the longrange shoots at Alliance

 When I get caught up on the haying I hope to get one of those mold handles and get some bullets cast. I've got enough to do one shoot, but not the 2 or 3 others I'ld like to get done.

[Advertising]

[Delmonico]

Maybe I can make one next year, would love to, if I can I'll see if we can make one together.

[Ranch 13]

Del that sounds like an A#1 plan to me

[Drydock]

Thats not the point.  The point is the projectile IS stable.  Like a gyroscope, it will return to its original axis of rotation once the outside force has been removed/transited.  And i'm never going to try to explain this again . . . .

[Marshal Deadwood]

I cant see a bullet starting out with bad roatation correcting itself. I believe if you shoot a short range group bad, other factors are afoot. A bad bullet flight will remain a bad bullet flight. Perhaps if the bullet was 'speeding up' it might imporve during flight. I just don't buy a bullet that is slowing down starting to suddenly fly 'more correctly.'

MD

[Delmonico]

Thats not the point.  The point is the projectile IS stable.  Like a gyroscope, it will return to its original axis of rotation once the outside force has been removed/transited.  And i'm never going to try to explain this again . . . .

Thank you for your effort, I think this will either be something folks understand or don't understand. 

[Marshal Deadwood]

I'm not sure you can 'understand' something that is  not correct to begin with. If perhaps, you could post some scientific docum on how 'bad flight rotation' can suddenly 'correct itself',,,,it might be better understood. Till then, and opinion is just that, and you have your opinion and I have mine. Errant flight of a bullet is not 'self correcting.' Whatever 'reasons' cause the errant rotation/flight, will continue to be present thur the duration of said bullets flight.

If this is a physical law , the pattern of error would be present on every bullet fired from every gun.

Every watch tracers ? A  tracer that rotates wildly, never suddenly and mysteriously falls into true flight.

MD  *folklore skeptic

[drcook]

Don (ranch13) just reiterated what I have been trying to say all along in my posts. It turns out that we
seem to think pretty much along the same lines. And while we probably have only met briefly, we have
the same circle of friends  and frequent the same types of shoots.
 
Don (ranch13) and I shoot the same types of competitions, with ranges from 100 to 1000 yards. As
both Don and I keep saying, if they won't group at 100, they won't group at the range intervals out
to 1000 and sometimes a bit beyond consistently and predictably.

Some of the folks are even using these guns to shoot at a mile on Kenny W's parent's ranch. The sights
they use are about as tall as a stepladder. Now of course, most, if not all are using 45-110's, but that just
reinforces the point that adequate velocity is needed.

The original load that grouped well at 450 but not anywhere else is an aberration. FG just got lucky
to be absolutely blunt about it (which I have been trying to not be blunt). With that load, if FG went
to anyone of the shoots that had the different ranges, he wouldn't even place. That is why I originally
suggested that he increase the amount of powder.

I know Harlan Sage (sageoutfitters) and that is where FG said he was getting some of his bullets from.
Harlan weighs the bullets before he packages them up so they shouldn't have voids in them and are
matched together by weight in groups of 50. Harlan uses certified alloys, so bullet composition isn't an
issue either.

regards,
dc
 

   

[Ranch 13]

 Well said Dave. Folks I've seen Dave shoot at one of the toughest long range matches in the country, he knows of what he speaks.
 
 I don't know anybody that will test a load that won't group at 200 yds or less at longer ranges.
No matter how a person can twist and bend and spout internet thereoum,,,,,, a load that's shooting 4 moa at 100 isn't suddenly going to start shooting 2 moa at 450 or anywhere else.
If there was a sight or rest problem when the group was tested at 100 thats a different story. ,

 

[Marshal Deadwood]

Dave, Ranch, my thoughts exactly. Thanks for dis-spellilng this 'bullet heal thyself' mythology.

A bad flight, is a bad flight all the way to the end. From muzzle to impact it remains a bad flight. I agree that if a closer target shows a poorer group another factor was the culprit,,,improper rest,  lightening, shooter factor, who knows what, etc...but a longer 'better group' is not a case of a bullet magically changing physical laws.

MD

[Ranch 13]

MD, well said. I like your example of the tracers, plenty of video around folks can watch to see what you're talking about.

[Drydock]

Fiddler green witnessed a phenomenom that is common in large transonic projectiles, we explained the phenonemon, and now it somehow does not exist?  It is not "Bad stabilization" or "bad rotation" or "Bad flight".  It is a stable rotating mass being acted upon by an external force.   Precession is a law of physics, and I posted the link to explain it.  That you do not understand it is no call to insult those of us who do.

[Delmonico]

As simple as possible, if you take a ceiling fan and hit it, the fan center will not change it's rotation but the whole fan will wobble till the gyroscopic force takes the whole mass back to center.

[Ranch 13]

 :)Ceiling fan has a fixed center of rotation and a continuing centrifuge driving it. Bullets don't.
 Going back to the top as the example, once they start to run they seldom if ever return to the spot they started.

 If this gyroscopic and may the force be with you stuff had any practical application in the world of bullet flight, it would matter darn little what a person used for a power charge, bullet , case ,primer or wad, because the lil tonimonies that ride the bullet down the bore would always steer that bullet to the center of the bullseye. Problem comes when you try and put that into real world conditions, and you get large groups ,that get larger as the distance increases, and then we make adjustments to the load to try and get small groups.
 
So unless and until someone with good credentials can actually post verifiable targets where a large group at 100 actually attains less moa at 400 I'm calling it the way I seen it, and experienced it. BUllspit.

[Fox Creek Kid]

I've had groups that "came together" at longer ranges better than closer ranges. I thought it was something else until I read where Mike Venturino had the same results using CCI BR primers. I don't use them now as Federal primers give me better accuracy overall, but it was interesting how the CCI BR primers shot better at 200 & 300 m than at 100 m when related to MOA.

[john boy]

Buy this book ... Understanding Firearm Ballistics  by Robert A Rinker
He has a whole chapter on the subject being discussed 

[Delmonico]

Buy this book ... Understanding Firearm Ballistics  by Robert A Rinker
He has a whole chapter on the subject being discussed 

John Boy, do you know if Mann's Flight of the Bullet is being printed again?  I got a chance to borrow a copy one time and was foolish enough to give it back to the owner when I was done.

[john boy]

Del ... Mann's book is still in publication ... http://www.amazon.com/bullets-flight-powder-target-chronologically/dp/B0007FJSAQ
Don't have this one but 20 bucks 48 bucks used won't break my wallet    Be interesting to compare details from both the Mann and Rinker books.  If you don't have Riker's, it's worth a read.  I learned a lot from it

Post Script ... Don't know where the 20 dollars came from!