Lookin for some clothing advice

[Texas Steve]

Howdy,  I have been shooting in Cowboy Action for a couple of years now, all of it SASS (only game in town).  I love the history of the Old West and also do Civil War reenacting so I like to be as authentic in my clothing as I can.  Hurricane Ike tore up our range pretty bad so I have quite a bit of down time till its back up and running so I thought I might work on my outfit.  I was looking at the NCOWS site on how to create your persona and I think I might like to try a Wells Fargo express messenger.  Problem is the only picture I can find has all the men wearing coats so I can't find out what shirts they are wearing.  So my question is, what would be a safe choice on a shirt for a express messenger in the 1880's?  Any advice would be appreciated. 

Here is a link to the picture.  http://www.old-picture.com/old-west/Express-Company-Wells-Fargo.htm

[Dr. Bob]

Howdy Texas Steve,

A good place to start would be the Time-Life Old West series volume The Expressmen.  A placket front pull over shirt with a collar would be good for most of the NCOWS era.  A pull over band collar shirt would be fine too.  Button all the way down shirts were available, but not real common until late in the period.  If you are sporting a coat, you would most likely be wearing a vest too.  By the mid 1870's vests without a lapel were used.  Most were straight across the bottom.  Your library will have the book or you can often locate one at the local used book store or antique mall.  Books O'Toole here in CAS City has a used book store and can help you out if you need it!  He's the NCOWS Deputy Marshall and will treat you fair & square!!

[Irish Dave]

Texas Steve:

Sounds like Dr. Bob has headed you down the right path. One thing to keep in mind is that these fellows would have been "at work" when serving as messengers and would have been representing "the company."

In my readings, business dress was a big thing during this time and the image a company projected was very important to them.
Certainly environment played a role in modifying dress requirements, but I'd say leaning more towards "dressy" than casual would not be a bad choice. Neckties (of various and sundry styles) were common as part of a man's expected business attire. While not required in all cases, many more men wore ties regularly at that time than now, it seems.

Small foldover integral collars,  plain band collars, and band collars with detatchable collars were commonly worn.

Vests for business (and everyday wear for that matter) leaned more toward the conservative side (and were commonly part of a suit). One thing to avoid, I'd say, are the gaudy San Francisco whorehouse vests frequently sold by Wah and, to a lesser degree, other makers today.

Hopefully, others will add their observations as well.

I want to also say "thanks." Yours is a great attitude for NCOWS. Trying to "do it right" is what most of us really strive for and it's always cheaper to ask first and get it right to begin with than to buy first and research later -- often to the researcher's disappointment and wallet hardship.

[Advertising]

[Major 2]

" it's always cheaper to ask first and get it right to begin with than to buy first and research later-- often to the researcher's disappointment and wallet hardship."
 

that is very true and profound ....

[Texas Steve]

Thanks for the information.  I am in the process of picking up a set of the Time Life books and was glad to hear there was a volume devoted to the express men. 

Irish Dave, thank you for the kind remarks.  If anyone has anymore information or any other bits of advice on creating an authentic persona, please pass it on.

One finally addendum, would it be advantageous to join NCOWS when I really don't have an NCOWS range nearby?   

[Sam Perfye]

Steve, my own persona is an express messenger, depending on the time period and company worked for, a messengers dress may run from a complete uniform ( mostly railroad agents from the late 80's on) to common everyday work clothes ( stageline agents esp. in the late 60's- early 70's). One of the most interesting things I discovered was the payscale, $75-80 a month on average with some drawing as much as $150 a month. Another thing to consider is your location. I've found that in different areas different items were more common than in other areas. Hope this helps, Al. P.S. Welcome to the fire.

[Irish Dave]

Texas Steve wrote:

One finally addendum, would it be advantageous to join NCOWS when I really don't have an NCOWS range nearby?   

Well, TS, from my perspective, of course, I'd say absolutely!

1) Many (I'd even say most) NCOWS members do not live near an active, regular NCOWS range. But who knows where the next club might form up? Without members, it's tough to get a club started.
2) There's always the benefit of our magazine The Shootist (6 issues per year). It has lots of good info on guns, gear, how-to's and the like -- all with the historically-minded "westerner" in mind.
3) There's also the benefit of knowing you're part of a group of like-minded individuals who like to share information, research and such as much as they like the shootin' parts.

Just a coupla cents worth, but you oughta give it a think.

[Willie Dixon]

Texas Steve,

I am also an NCOWS Originals hopeful.  I'm using two pictures found of my G-great grand uncle as a basis for my character.  And I'm having pretty much two outfits, one that is casual and one that is formal or business in style.  The first great thing you did was find a picture from that era, solves things really quick and second asking for help.  Doc is amazing, and has been very helpful for me in finding what I needed. 

hope all goes well.  I have done a ton of research into costuming as well, so if you need help on links to different places that sell patterns, period correct hats, clothes, etc, feel free to PM me.

[Trap]

   TS,  Another benefit of belonging to NCOWS is the members only board. If you had been able to get on it this morning, you could have read 3 new posts that would explain why it is worth the price to belong to the NCOWS family.    jt

[St. George]

The 'Expressman', or 'Driver', or 'Jehu' or any other sobriquet was first and foremost a 'working man'.

He'd wear clothing as what was available at the local Dry Goods store.

They didn't wear an 'outfit' - nor did they have a 'distinctive mark' that would identify them and their profession.

They wore the same clothes that other working men did - hat, pants, shirt, suspenders, boots, vest, bandanna or tie, coat - and a linen duster or a heavy winter coat as needed. (Buffalo being most common)

Add a heavy coating of dust kicked up by the mules - and you're set.

All you need to document are those items and whatever firearms you'd carry and examples are rife in the Time-Life series 'The Old West' - especially the volume titled 'The Expressmen'.

There's also a book titled - 'U.S. West - The Saga of Wells Fargo' - by Beebe and Clegg - published in 1949.

Your local Library may have a copy or could get it via an Inter-Library Loan.

The 'John Ford Reference Library' often features celluloid stagecoach drivers as 'eccentric' or 'colorful', when in fact they were hard-working men doing their job.

Pick your proposed time frame - then get the most generic men's clothing that you see in dated photos.

If you're in doubt - buy the 'sturdiest', since it'd give the most for your dollar - then as now.

The drivers were well-paid for their skills, since the deliveries depended on their abilities to drive their teams as efficiently and quickly as possible, and that skill had value.

Unlike their counterpart - the Cowboy - they had relatively little predeliction for 'flash', since it was largely unseen due to the dust - so a 'basic' outfit of working man's clothing will be fine.

Good Luck!

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Texas Steve]

Well gents, I decided to take the plunge and joined NCOWS!  I signed up late last night so I am just waiting on my member number so I can join the members only forum.  I look forward to the sharing of information and camaraderie.  Thanks for the information and the friendly posts.

[St. George]

Welcome to NCOWS!

You're going to enjoy it.

Vaya,

Scouts Out!

[Irish Dave]

That's great TS. We look forward to having you ridin' with us.

Be a wee patient as our "courteous and professional staff" consists of 1 volunteer in the membership department . This is, after all, a non-profit, member -run outfit.  I know Jack will get your stuff out to you as soon as he can.

In the meantime, welcome to the NCOWS family. You'll never meet a nicer bunch (even if we do get a bit cantankerous from time to time).

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Texas Steve....

Where are you located?

Bill

[Texas Steve]

Down near Beaumont, which is close to Houston.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Down near Beaumont, which is close to Houston.

Steve.....

Do you know about the NCOWS matches around Greenville Texas, east of Dallas?

Bill

[Deadeye Don]

 Welcome to the fun Texas Steve.  We will look forward to your posts in "Chambers" as well as in other forums here on CAS City.

Regards.  Deadeye.

[mike highgate]

Hi all
I'm a newbie in this forum.
 It's surprisingly hard to find pullover shirts with an attached collar. The major makers all provide collarless shirts but the only shirts with a collar they make is the bib shirt.
As far as I can see, collarless shirts were cotton dress shirts that would eventually get downgraded to work shirts. Work shirts as such tended to be made in wool and generally had an attached collar. When I look at 19thc photos of working cowboys, it seems to me that the wool shirt with attached collar is far more prevalent than any other.
I'd appreciate any information on web sites for such an item.
Thanks in advance.

[River City John]

Hi all
I'm a newbie in this forum.
 It's surprisingly hard to find pullover shirts with an attached collar. The major makers all provide collarless shirts but the only shirts with a collar they make is the bib shirt.
As far as I can see, collarless shirts were cotton dress shirts that would eventually get downgraded to work shirts. Work shirts as such tended to be made in wool and generally had an attached collar. When I look at 19thc photos of working cowboys, it seems to me that the wool shirt with attached collar is far more prevalent than any other.
I'd appreciate any information on web sites for such an item.
Thanks in advance.

www.riverjunction.com/catalog/shirt/shirtindex.html

www.jamescountry.com/menscivilianclothing.html

www.fcsutler.com/fcclotaccess.asp 

These will get you started. I have items from all three vendors and would recommend them. 

[Irish Dave]

Mike:

Good tips from RCJ. I have a few shirts from River Junction and they're my favorites.

I couldn't agree more. I've been complaining every chance I get to the makers and/or retailers of period clothing about that very same thing. Frankly I have enough banded collar shirts to last more than a lifetime. And my experience with reference materials indicates the exact same thing --working shirts with attached collars appear to be far more common for "regular working stiffs" (including cowpokes) than the band collar variety.

I'm also on a personal crusade  against the San Francisco whorehouse-looking vests that the major makers seem intent on selling us, despite their relatively rarity in old photos and references from the actual period.