Kirst Dragoon conversion?

[will52100]

Been thinking about doing a dragoon again.  Walt offered to machine the cap and ball cylinder down so that I could keep the roll engraving and oval cylinder stops.  It's a whitneyville dragoon.

My standard load for 45 is a 250 grain PRS bullet and 38 grains of black powder.  How well do you think this conversion would hold up with this load?  How about cylinder drag or fouling out?

Opions?

Thanks,
Will

[Grapeshot]

I would love to see something like that.  I've got a pair of Uberti 1st Model Dragoons that I'd like to shoot as conversions, but I think that either the Cowboy .45 Special or Schofield brass and either the 200 grain Big Lube or the 250 grain PRS over a compressed charge of BP or Substitute would be the way to go.  A case full of BP/Sub and the 250 PRS in a .45 Colt would be a bit much for our sport.  The Dragoon would no doubt handle it, but I think the shorter cases would be the way to go.

As far as fouling goes, the PRS big lube boolit would negate that concern as it has for the '58 Rem and Schofield.  As for cylinder drag, as long as the wedge isn't hammered in to far the PRS Bullet should negate that problem as well.

[will52100]

Well the problem with that is that it's a dragoon and I'm a warthog.   Also I shoot way more at home than I do at matches.  Due to working overseas I'm only in for about everyother monthly match.

[Advertising]

[chris hickey]

Ive done two Kirst .45 conversions for dragoons and my most successful load has been 30 grains of fffg with packer and a 250 grain pill.I also put lube on top of each bullet and this has given me trouble free shooting

[Steel Horse Bailey]

That load would be a piece of cake to that revolver.  Don't listen to any nay-sayer.  While what Grapeshot (a good pard who I respect VERY much) said about being "be a bit much for our sport" may be overkill, it's certainly do-able. 

And for any who may have forgotten, the "planned" load for the Dragoons was 50 grs. of BP which was a higher grade of powder than MOST of what we shoot now and it was, shall we say, more "energetic" back then!  And, the guns were made with 19th century iron & steel.  The cheap-o steel that the Italians use for much of their repro C&B guns is probably as good as the BEST available when those guns were invented and produced.

[Hoof Hearted]

Been thinking about doing a dragoon again.  Walt offered to machine the cap and ball cylinder down so that I could keep the roll engraving and oval cylinder stops.  It's a whitneyville dragoon.

This is a COOL deal! I have a few we did that way.......

My standard load for 45 is a 250 grain PRS bullet and 38 grains of black powder.  How well do you think this conversion would hold up with this load?  How about cylinder drag or fouling out?

Because the case occupies a decent amount of space in the chamber, it would be pretty hard to overload a cylinder this way with BP.
Cylinder drag is dependent on how the revolver is set up. If you have us install it this is not a concern.
Fouling is dependent on lube, powder, charge etc. The cleanest loads are always "full" loads and Swiss powder is the cleanest burning (and expensive). Use non petroleum lubes...........

Opions?

Thanks,
Will
[/quote]

[Hoof Hearted]

Well the problem with that is that it's a dragoon and I'm a warthog.   Also I shoot way more at home than I do at matches.  Due to working overseas I'm only in for about everyother monthly match.

Will

We can always cut the forcing cone back and put a Walker cylinder in the gun for even more WARTHOG-ABILITY 

[Steel Horse Bailey]

COOL idea!!!

[Paladin UK]

HH says...

......put a Walker cylinder in the gun

  OOOOOH Suits you Sir!! 

Paladin (What likes that idea...A LOT!!! ) UK

[wildman1]

HH, could ya add a little ZIP ta a couple of Walkers.  WM

[Hoof Hearted]

HH, could ya add a little ZIP ta a couple of Walkers.  WM

76476.....?
(my zip code)

But seriously are you talking about a larger cartridge?
I have done them and have a personal Dragoon that takes approx 60 gr of 3f behind a 250 grain bullet in the brass case.
See it here:

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,35365.msg474408.html#msg474408

PM me and we'll talk!

HH

[Grapeshot]

Do you think that a Dragoon converted to fire something like a .500 S&W case shortened to .45 Colt length and loaded with BP and a 350 grain pill id doable.  Yes, the barrel will have to be bored out and re-rifled to .500 groove to groove.

[Hoof Hearted]

Do you think that a Dragoon converted to fire something like a .500 S&W case shortened to .45 Colt length and loaded with BP and a 350 grain pill id doable.  Yes, the barrel will have to be bored out and re-rifled to .500 groove to groove.

Sent you a PM........

[Russ McCrae]

There's always trouble when it goes to PM's!!!!

[pony express]

I shot a Walker that had been bored to .50 once, but still in C&B configuration.

[Tornado]

Do you think that a Dragoon converted to fire something like a .500 S&W case shortened to .45 Colt length and loaded with BP and a 350 grain pill id doable.  Yes, the barrel will have to be bored out and re-rifled to .500 groove to groove.

OK, spill the beans that sounds awsome!

[rifle]

I'm what I call a "Kitchen Table Gunsmith".
Just setting the stance for my reply .
Number one thing......I can't hardly believe Walt would chamber a standard percussion cylinder for a Dragoon or Walker to 45 Colt cartridge. That would leave the bottoms of the chambers cylinder notches paper thin. So thin the bolts spring could nock thru into the chamber. That could cause a problem with a burst cylinder even with black powder especially FFFg designation which can raise pressures 40-50% over FFg designation. In the least a sticky case problem with the thin bottoms of the notches pushing up and making a bulge the cases would conform to. The bottom line would be the standard cylinders of the percussions Dragoons and Walkers should only be chambered to 44Colt or 44Special with blackpowder only. Then sleeve a barrel to 44 cal. and use lead balls or heel bullets or hollow based bullets to shoot thru an overly large cylinder throat(not more than .003 in. diameter lead compared to the barrels groove diameter though). Round balls loaded  in the case and crimped at the widest diameter work well. Just my opinion stated here for all that's worth.
Number 2 thing.....the Kirst Konversions are recommended by the manufacturer to fire 45 Colt factory Cowboy loads or blackpowder equivilent. That means 45 Colt blackpowder loads with a charge of approx. 33gr. FFg by volume. It doesn't recommend 55gr. FFg or especially FFFg charges in longer cases. I put it up front and not in PM's while maybe leading people a stray with pics and inferences the long cartridges with more powder are do-able  and safe. A Conversion Specialist should put the facts up front since some people may not think to question.I would put the facts up front. Just to be sure people know the whole story. My opinion again.
The frames of the percussions are cheapy steel but they use cylinders with enclosed,not bored thru ,chambers with conversion back-plates. The mechanics of the percussion and the converted percussion are entirely different. The percussion cylinder holds the pressure,not the case and back-plate ....meaning the frame.
This ends up with.....follow the manufactures rcommendations for loads since the manufacture is a skilled educated design engineer. If you go beyond the recommendations then do so at your own risk. Black Powder ain't no pussy wooped powder. It has some real pressure and the percussions are designed to handle that with an enclosed ,at the rear, chambers.
Now I ain't makin like a know it all nay-sayer or anything. I'm just expressing my own opinions. I like the idea of a converted Walker or Dragood with some whomp. I'd side with the manufactureres recommendations though.
Just to be on the safe side. I'm certain I wouldn't chamber a standard Walker or Dragoon percussion cylinder for 45 caliber though. I'd chamber it for 44 caliber and sleeve a barrel.

[wildman1]

A Walker C&B will take 60g BP (Max load 50g recommended by Uberti) a 45 Colt case will take a max of 40g of BP and to get it in the case it has to be compressed a lot. I'm not thinkin there is goin ta be a problem shootin 45 Colt in a Walker, there is almost no recoil and nowhere near the velocity that ya get with a .454 RB and 50g of BP.   WM

[Hoof Hearted]

I bet your eyeys would roll back in your head and vibrate if you saw my Dragoon using 460 S&W cases with 62 grains of fffg and a 250 gr projectile


 

I'm what I call a "Kitchen Table Gunsmith".
Just setting the stance for my reply .
Number one thing......I can't hardly believe Walt Kirst would chamber a standard percussion cylinder for a Dragoon or Walker to 45 Colt cartridge. That would leave the bottoms of the chambers cylinder notches paper thin. So thin the bolts spring could nock thru into the chamber. That could cause a problem with a burst cylinder even with black powder especially FFFg designation which can raise pressures 40-50% over FFg designation. In the least a sticky case problem with the thin bottoms of the notches pushing up and making a bulge the cases would conform to. The bottom line would be the standard cylinders of the percussions Dragoons and Walkers should only be chambered to 44Colt or 44Special with blackpowder only. Then sleeve a barrel to 44 cal. and use lead balls or heel bullets or hollow based bullets to shoot thru an overly large cylinder throat. Just my opinion stated here for all that's worth.
Number 2 thing.....the Kirst Konversions are recommended by the manufacturer to fire 45 Colt factory Cowboy loads or blackpowder equivilent. That means 45 Colt blackpowder loads with a charge of approx. 33gr. FFg by volume. It doesn't recommend 55gr. FFg or especially FFFg charges in longer cases. I put it up front and not in PM's while maybe leading people a stray with pics and inferences the long cartridges with more powder are do-able  and safe. A Conversion Specialist should put the facts up front since some people may not think to question.I would put the facts up front. Just to be sure people know the whole story. My opinion again.
The frames of the percussions are cheapy steel but they use cylinders with enclosed,not bored thru ,chambers with conversion back-plates. The mechanics of the percussion and the converted percussion are entirely different. The percussion cylinder holds the pressure,not the case and back-plate ....meaning the frame.
This ends up with.....follow the manufactures rcommendations for loads since the manufacture is a skilled educated design engineer. If you go beyond the recommendations then do so at your own risk. Black Powder ain't no pussy wooped powder. It has some real pressure and the percussions are designed to handle that with an enclosed ,at the rear, chambers.
Now I ain't makin like a know it all nay-sayer or anything. I'm just expressing my own opinions. I like the idea of a converted Walker or Dragood with some whomp. I'd side with the manufactureres recommendations though.
Just to be on the safe side. I'm certain I wouldn't chamber a standard Walker or Dragoon percussion cylinder for 45 caliber though. I'd chamber it for 44 caliber and sleeve a barrel.

[rifle]

Howdy WildMan and Hoof Hearted,
Wildman I agree with you about the 45 Colt in the conversion. The manufacturer that designed it does too. The 45 Colt is fine if the designer says so. It's the uppin of the powder that "may" give problems. Using a longer case after the chambers are milled out some is stretchin it.
If the guns frame hold the pressure then they hold the pressure. If a Pard wants more whomp for the buck then it's fine for him to test it and decide for himself if he wants to stretch the recommended loads.
Hoof,I figure yer an intelligent Hombre and test till yer satisfied. I figure you've tested adequately.
Ifin I saw you fire yer Dragoon with the load you mentioned I bet my eyes would hole back in my head..........you could see my eyes behind my safety shootin glasses......... when I'd be wanting to take a shot myself.
Anywhooooo.......I'm lookin forward to checking out your web page or whatever it was mentioned.
I like anything that adds more illustrious allure to the cap&baller realm. You put up A-1 pictures and all and make the threads more interesting. The Walker cylinder fit in the Dragoon takes up that awkward space a Dragoon normally has with it's shorter cylinder. Makes the Dragoon look better aesthetically.
Did you have any problems with the hand and the ratchet index on the rear of the Walker cylinder.