Rifling twist rate in Armisport Spencers

Hoot-3rd Ga · November 16, 2008, 11:25:04 AM

Fox Creek Kid: In a recent post, you started off with the statement "I doubt my answer will be popular" in regard to the twist rate of the rifling in Armisports. That confuses me. Aren't readers of this forum interested in all technical points of view which relate to the shooting of Spencers? If something is positive.....praise it.......if there are issues....I want to know that too. It's not about giving up on something, it's about finding solutions. Hoot - 3rd Ga - N-SSA - SASS - NRA Life member
That said, do you know if Armisport is staying with the faster twist in current models?

Hoot-3rd Ga · November 16, 2008, 11:46:05 AM

Fox Creek Kid: I'd have to ask Larry Romano, but I imagine he would put .512 liners in originals and .515 liners in Armisport liners. Current Starline brass would not work with .533 bullets. If they did, the brass would be overworked and not last very long. Plus where would you get production dies to bell, seat and crimp on .533" bullets? Whoever does the liner, getting the chamber right is as important as the twist! Hoot

Herbert · November 17, 2008, 12:34:46 AM

it seems strange to me when there 44-40 spencer has a near perfect twist rate 1 in 36 that the 56-50 has a1 in 20 twist rate i carnt understand what there thinking,one so right and one so wrong

Grogan · November 17, 2008, 09:47:13 AM

Quote from: Herbert on November 17, 2008, 12:34:46 AM
it seems strange to me when there 44-40 spencer has a near perfect twist rate 1 in 36 that the 56-50 has a1 in 20 twist rate i carnt understand what there thinking,one so right and one so wrong

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I've read this thread with interest (who knows, someday I might have one of these myself?)

My immediate reaction to reading this is WHY hasn't someone gotten back to the Importer/Distributor and/or Armisport and corrected this?!!

I mean sure, it's nice for the businesses who specialize in relining the barrels on these, BUT wouldn't it be much simpler to just have them "made right" from the get go?

Sheesh, it would seem like in the very most extreme case the Distributor (Taylor's?) could actually get a "sample" (relined) piece and SEND it to Armisport with instructions "Make them like THIS!"

I dunno, maybe thinking out loud here...maybe just talkin to myself.

Hoot-3rd Ga · November 17, 2008, 10:44:59 AM

Grogan: Well put! I guess it is because Italy is so far away and speaks a another language.......... This issue is not as common with American made firearms. There is no cause for people who own these to worry for short range SASS shooting. You will never know the difference. Hoot - 3rd Ga N-SSA SASS NRA Life

Grogan · November 17, 2008, 11:03:59 AM

Quote from: Hoot-3rd Ga on November 17, 2008, 10:44:59 AM
Grogan: Well put! I guess it is because Italy is so far away and speaks a another language.......... This issue is not as common with American made firearms. There is no cause for people who own these to worry for short range SASS shooting. You will never know the difference. Hoot - 3rd Ga N-SSA SASS NRA Life

Ha ha, well IF it shoots "great" at 100 yd.s, it'll shoot great at 15 yards.

Because, as they come, it doesn't work that way...even though they shoot "o.k." at 15 yards

(I can throw rocks pretty well to 15 yards also)

I'd WANT mine to shoot GREAT at 100 yards!

Fox Creek Kid · November 17, 2008, 02:48:31 PM

The original Spencers, according to Marcot, had a 1 in 48" twist which personally I think was merely a carryover from Christian Spencer utilizing a Sharps rifle barrel on his early Spencer rifles. That said, the Italians are broach cutting their barrels I believe. It's really not that expensive for them to switch over to a different twist rate. I'd imagine that if Tammy at Taylor's and Mike Harvey at Cimarron leaned on Armisport a little it could be done.

Ironically, I just got off the phone with L. Romano about this very same question as I am sending him a Sharps conversion carbine to be relined. Thanks to Appalachian Ed for telling me that Romano is now making his own liners. This very topic was discussed and Larry recommends the 1 in 36" for Spencer (& Sharps 50-70 carbine) relining. It just so happens I have an old Shiloh (Farmingdale) 50-70 Military Rifle that's 1 in 36" and is a nail driver with the 450 gr. Gov't bullet. So, no hard sale for Larry with me.

Interestingly, Sharps used a 1 in 34" twist rate in their 1874 cartridge models for .50 cal. rifles (50-70, 50 2" & 50 2.5").

Enough history. Hoot, Shiloh changed the .50 cal. from 1 in 36" to 1 in twenty something because so many shooters were shooting BIG, i.e., 650 - 700 gr., bullets to reach 1,000 yds. and the stubby little bullets that were historically correct didn't much cut it past 600 yds. I think the Italians simply followed suit as well as Badger barrels. In order to get a 350 gr. bullet to shoot very well with a 1 in 20" barrel you're probably really going to push it fast. It won't matter much to 50 yds. and MAYBE 100 yds. Beyond that I would think not. The only way to know is to play with it.

P.S. I believe it was Appalachian Ed who said "I doubt my answer will be popular". Correct?

Appalachian Ed · November 17, 2008, 03:00:30 PM

It was me

Hoot-3rd Ga · November 17, 2008, 03:20:11 PM

Thanks Fox Creek Kid! This is exactly the kind of technical information I need to work on solutions. I can't see why anything like this would be unpopular?

?? Hoot

Appalachian Ed · November 17, 2008, 03:39:38 PM

There is little motivation for the Italians to change anything about their Spencer copy. They sell them as fast as they can make them as it is. The vast majority of these repro's are sold to CAS and reenacter folks. Long range accuracy, or paper accuracy is unimportant in that market. There are exceptions, for for the most part they don't need, or care about that kind of accuracy.

The NSSA is a limited market as well, Spencer's are not popular, the Henry's are much faster. For the purest who wants quality, accuracy, and 100% period correctness, there are many originals available, and the Romano is 100% dead on.

The Armisport is "good enough" for what it is made for, and the market is is sold into. It is a well made gun for the money.

It's no different that the 1873 Winchester copies, they fit the market they are priced for and sold into. People who want more buy an original or have one restored by Doug Turnbull.

Fox Creek Kid · November 17, 2008, 06:57:38 PM

Hoot & Ed, there may be another way to "skin a cat" here. I peruse the NSSA forum now & then and that Eddington fella seems to be quite the Edison in mould experiments. Didn't he make a Gardner style bullet for the Spencer?

Herbert · November 17, 2008, 11:08:04 PM

i agree that if a distruberter talked to armi sports about twist rate they would proberly be hapy to fix it as it would cost no money and not afect acuracy at short range and i am sure they could sell extra barels to oners that would apreaciat longer range acuracy

French Jack · November 21, 2008, 05:20:35 PM

Bob Hoyt makes and installs liners with a 1-56 twist. He also makes new barrels. He informed me that the majority of the originals he has worked on had that rate twist.

Fox Creek Kid · November 21, 2008, 06:19:13 PM

Quote from: French Jack on November 21, 2008, 05:20:35 PM
Bob Hoyt makes and installs liners with a 1-56 twist...

Why 1 in 56" if (I thought) originals were 1 in 48"?

Herbert · November 21, 2008, 07:59:13 PM

has anyone tried a original 56-50 against a REMONO 56-50 with 1-36 twist my calculations say with 0.80 lenth bullet the 1-36 should shoot beter but this would have to be tryed at ranges from 50 to 300 yards to get real results

Herbert · November 22, 2008, 11:30:40 PM

sory about last post when i wrote REMONO i ment ROMANO as in LARRY ROMANO maker of custom spencers and smith who relines armi sports barells to 1-36 inch twist speling has never been my strong point

Arizona Trooper · November 23, 2008, 10:50:35 AM

I haven't shot one of Larry's rifles, but my New Model carbine (the one with the best bore) will shoot tighter than I can hold out to 100 yards. I've shot informally out to 250 yards and been very happy with the accuracy, but we were shooting milk jugs, not paper. One of the big differences between Larry's barrels and originals, at least the Green River barrels he use to use before he set up to make his own, is that the rifling is a lot shallower. Larry's Spencers want hard bullets, while originals like them soft. A good original and a Romano would probably be about equal out to at least 100 yards, assuming both were shooting ammo developed for each particular gun. I have seen some very impressive shooting with Larry's Spencers.

French Jack · November 23, 2008, 06:35:33 PM

I just used the Greenhill formula to check the "formula" rate of twist for the Spencer-- with the Lyman 515139, it comes out to a 1-53 twist. Small world.

Herbert · November 23, 2008, 07:47:33 PM

french jack trouble with greenhii formular is there is a couple of versions they both seem to work the one you yoused gives about slowest twist for a given bullet lenth the other gives it for fastest for same bullet lenth ,it is twist=150 times major bore diameter squard times bullet lenth this formular is right on limet any shorter bullet wont staberlise so it best to slow twist down slitly i have found it gives me the best acuracu for given bullet lenth i presume this is how Larry Romano setled on 1-36 twist but i am proberly rong thees formulars are guides and not set in stone that seaid i have found that a twist rate between uper and lower limits will work finding the best one requires testing which is expencive;in a spence where bullet lenth is very limited it is inportant not to go at a faster twist rate than fastest formular or acuracy will sufer this is my experince others may have diferent idears

French Jack · November 24, 2008, 08:43:44 PM

Herbert, I agree that using a twist faster than needed to stabilize bullet is a waste and requires a lot harder bullet to prevent stripping. Since I prefer to use a softer bullet, I use the slower twist given by the formula: 150 x D2/L= rate of twist. Dividing by the length instead of multiplying by it gives a large difference in twist. I have done some research on several arms that were chambered for the Spencer cartridge, and find that twist varied from 1-48 to 1-58. Most were the slower twists.

I am sure that given the correct alloy for the rate of twist can make a lot of difference, and I suspect that is why Larry Romano's shoot so well with very hard bullets. Conversations with Bob Hoyt reveal that he is also getting excellent accuracy, however with a softer bullet, even 1-40. Green Mountain is rifling their barrels for the 50 cal. with a 1-54 twist, this is a departure from the rapid twist used in their BPCR barrels for use with the long heavy 600+ gr. bullets.

Guess I will just have to try one out and see how it works. The proof is in the pudding.