NCOWS and SASS clubs??

[J.R. Logan]

Why are there not more NCOWS clubs around the country?  NCOWS and SASS ranges are not that different.  They both shoot steel targets, use stage fronts, and props that are the same.  Are the SASS guys not willing to share their range with NCOWS posses on the weekends that they are not using them?  Are the NCOWS posses not talking with the SASS clubs in their area to get this going?

I just don’t see why there could not be a NCOWS Posses every place there is a SASS club unless there is just not the interest in NCOWS to have a Posses there.  I believe that there are probably far more NCOWS minded SASS shooters than there are SASS minded NCOWS shooters, so it should not be that hard to get a group from the existing shooters to come out and play.  And who doesn’t want to shoot more than we do already?

Hope someone has a good answer to the question above inquiring minds want to know.

Thanks

J. R. Logan; SASS Life 24849, NCOWS member 2959.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

"Lost Wages" used to shoot both ways.  I almost got there with Lorne Lomprey one time.  Emphasis on almost.  I believe they shot the same stages, but divided in separate posses, each using their own Assoc. rules.

[Guns Garrett]

Let me start off by saying I am a member of both NCOWS and SASS, and have no ax to grind against either of them.

SASS has been around for over 20 years, I believe, and from the git-go had an aggressive marketing, advertising policy, and media exposure.  What started out as a diversion for a few IPSC shooters who tried their sport with "cowboy guns" and liked it, has become a business.  Their image has always been portrayed as "the fastest growing sport" and inclusive to the whole family.  Right off the bat they copyrighted or trademaked the terms "Cowboy Action Shooting" and "CAS", so that technically, by using those terms any time, you would in fact be referring to SASS, whether intended or not.  In other words, Cowboy Action Shooting/CAS is SASS, and SASS is Cowboy Action Shooting.  They have their own merchandizing.  They have their own bookstore selling videos, books and DVD's.  Their Top Shooters are spokespersons and celebrities. Because they were the "first", they got the initial attention and exposure  of being "new and different".

NCOWS, on the other hand, has a different mission or attitude towards the sport.  I would guess that the majority of NCOWS members started out a SASS members who "wanted more", with more than a few Civil War reenactors and Buckskinners in there as well.  It's what attracted me to NCOWS.  I had a deep interest and love of American History, in particular the West.  I have both SASS and NCOWS stickers on the back window of my truck.  I'm often approached by folks asking about either.  Invariably I end up talking to them about NCOWS.  I usually summarize by saying " If you like re-living the Old West and its lifestyle, check out NCOWS.  If you just like shooting the guns, check out SASS."  

Among the uninformed, the biggest detriment to NCOWS is the percieved image that the membership is a bunch of sticklers for absolute autheticity.  What we used to call in the ACW reenactment community as "stitch Nazis", those looking for any tiny anacronism or non-period-correct item or fabric, commonly referred to as "FARBs".  I have yet to personally meet one of those in NCOWS.  

SASS was tailored to appeal to the widest, most diverse market possible - minimal requirements (but a plethora of Match Rules), lots of classes and categories, professional and dedicated marketing, and a HUGE membership (close to 100,000, I think).  I applaud their founding and promotion of Cowboy Action Shooting - more power to them.

NCOWS fills a niche within this community.  A comparatively small  group  of dedicated, like-minded individuals who share both the love of Western History, living, and competitive shooting.  You are free to choose which of those you wish to emphasize.  As a smaller, closer-knit group, NCOWS does benefit from being a more "Democratic" organization, with each of our clubs/posses being represented in a Congress, not a Board of Directors.  I shoot in both SASS and NCOWS events.  I have more fun at an NCOWS shoot, because it's about more than just shooting, which is the feeling I get at a SASS match.  I believe NCOWS will continue to grow, as more individuals find it to have "something more" than SASS.  Could it grow faster if it developed a more businesslike or corporate image, and aggressively promote itself? Sure, it would grow, but at what price?  NCOWS is receiving more exposure in the media, with national magazine articles, "Cowboys" TV show, and even some local news stories.  It will attract those who want to be a part of it.  NCOWS may never grow to be a large as SASS, but then again, do we it want to?
That's just my opinion; I could be wrong.

[Advertising]

[River City John]

Guns, that was well stated indeed.

My guess as to why there are not more NCOWS clubs is because there isn't enough difference between the two clubs as far as the shooting part goes to warrant going through the effort to form a separate club. SASS clubs are more prolific.
The greater majority in this hobby simply are interested in being able to play cowboy and shoot with like-minded people without having to worry too much whether everything used to satisfy that itch is historically accurate or not. While we all started our romance for the Old West inspired by TV, movies or popular novels, NCOWS people have a tendancy to delve a little deeper into the historical background and then tailor their arms and equipment used to achieve the same goal.

There is a price , both of time commitment and monetary, in forming a new club. Usually it takes more than just three people (our magic start-up number) interested before it seems to have momentum to get done. Which means there needs to be more than just a handfull working towards the formation of a new NCOWS posse. Finding and maintaining an appropriate range presents greater difficulties, particularly in regards to insurance. This whether wholly owned or leased from another club. And understandably established clubs like to keep control over how and by whom their facilities are used so most discourage multiple users.

Another reason is, if we are honest, perhaps NCOWS has lagged a little in being able to consistently offer value received for membership. We have worked hard on overcoming glitches in the delivery of our publication THE SHOOTIST,- and as we gain membership and clubs there is a stronger desire on the part of the National Congress to provide more support for local posses. Regional, and perhaps even breaking it down by hosting State matches, may provide greater opportunities to conduct NCOWS events.

It gets back to the fact that probably 70% of the NCOWS membership do not belong to a club. As our membership grows we will gain the increased numbers in areas enough to get more local NCOWS posses formed up and running.

   

[Tjackstephens]

River City John, TRUE, TRUE, TRUE.  TJ

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Well, J.R., I was going to offer my take on this, but Guns Garrett and River City John said it better than I could!


As you may know, J.R., our own GLFMC shoots on a range that used to hold both NCOWS and SASS clubs.  The original owner was a SASS shooter and formed a SASS club there - a decent sized one, at that.  I don't know what has happened to most of the SASS members who shot there regularly ... but a number of them are still active in NCOWS and still shooting at Modoc.

 

Jeff

SHB

[J.R. Logan]

Thank you all for the great information about SASS and NCOWS but I still do not feel as if any of my question have been answered.  So let me ask in a different way.

If I have a baseball field and use it to play ball games for my team and the neighbor hood kids come and ask me if they can use the field too why would I not let them?  Assuming they do not show up with Lawyers in tow.

Hope this help clear up my question.

J. R. Logan

[Irish Dave]

Steel Horse:

Just a coupla points of clarification.

As it's been told to me, the Modoc range began as a sporting clays facility. Western Action Shooting was introduced there by the NCOWS folks -- Jeff Stewart and his pards who formed GLF&MC. They worked with the landowner to develop the range, acquire targets, build stage fronts etc.

You're right that at one time both SASS and NCOWS used the range, albeit on different weekends. The change occurred when the ownership of the range changed hands. The Great Lakes Freight & Mining Co. (NCOWS posse) carries its own insurance, but the SASS group shooting there apparently had been piggybacking on the former owner's insurance. When ownership changed and they needed to get their own insurance etc., they stopped shooting there.

At least that's the way I understand it from folks who were there before me.

********
On the initial question, I think Guns Garrett and River City John have responded very well and accurately. At this point, I can't think of much that I could add.

*********

JR:
FWIW, my opinion is that it's probably not the availability of ranges, but the factors that GG and RCJ have posted that are the reason NCOWS posses aren't everywhere. I'm convinced that'll change as NCOWS continues to grow and attract more and more shooters looking for "something more and different" than what they're doing now. Members first, posses will follow.

[Books OToole]

Unfortunatly, many members of one or the other organization, feel that they are in competition with the other.
Not taking in consideration that many shooters are members of both;  They are afraid of losing shooters to the other.

In reality, they are not in competition any more than NASCAR competes with USAC.
SASS and NCOWS have similarities; but they are very different.

Friendly enlightenment is the answer to this situation.


Books

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Well.......
I was going to stay out of this....but here goes........Our posse has a core group that does most of the work at our range...there are legitimate reasons why others don't join in to do the manual labor...but with that said, here goes.....

When we cleared the land, set up our shooting stages, made the targets....there were four or five of us that did all the work. We used our own tractors, bush hogs, bull dozers, diesel fuel, gas and tools, to do this, not rentals. Do I want another club that hasn't gotten their hands dirty to benefit from our hard work...absolutlely not. And I think that the aforementioned four or five members feel the same way. Sorry.......

OCB

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Well.......
I was going to stay out of this....but here goes........Our posse has a core group that does most of the work at our range...there are legitimate reasons why others don't join in to do the manual labor...but with that said, here goes.....

When we cleared the land, set up our shooting stages, made the targets....there were four or five of us that did all the work. We used our own tractors, bush hogs, bull dozers, diesel fuel, gas and tools, to do this, not rentals. Do I want another club that hasn't gotten their hands dirty to benefit from our hard work...absolutlely not. And I think that the aforementioned four or five members feel the same way. Sorry.......

OCB

Ditto

[Dr. Bob]

I think that it may also be some worry about damage to the property.  Will the other group pay for any damage to targets or props?  Will it be a hassle?  And then I agree that there would be apprehension that you might loose members to the other group.  But, you might gain some too.

[Smokey Three Toes]

Okay here goes, our club started as NCOWS, then went to SASS, with NCOWS being started up again, same range using the same targets and props, as far as I know there has not been a problem. As far as one organization doing all the work in clearing the area for the range and another using it is very petty, the more people you can get interested in CAS the better for both organization's.


   

[Irish Dave]

I suppose there may be some "territoriality" regarding sharing ranges -- especially if the club who built it, owns it.

On the other hand, seems to me that many cowboy ranges are not owned by the clubs that use them. When such ranges are owned by independent businessmen or groups, it seems logical that the more shooters they can get there, the more groups that use their facilities, the more money they can put in their pockets. And that's what business is about.

I don't think there's any need for a whizzing match over ranges. Some are private and some are commercial business enterprises. I'd think the commercial ranges would be happy to have as many "customers" as they could accommodate.

I'm guessing that in most cases, it all comes down to ownership and profit motive.

[Ottawa Creek Bill]

Okay here goes, our club started as NCOWS, then went to SASS, with NCOWS being started up again, same range using the same targets and props, as far as I know there has not been a problem. As far as one organization doing all the work in clearing the area for the range and another using it is very petty, the more people you can get interested in CAS the better for both organization's.   

Its not petty when you have to pay for upkeep and repairs to a 40 horsepower four wheel drive tractor.

OCB

[Smokey Three Toes]

 

[Black Powder]

Its not petty when you have to pay for upkeep and repairs to a 40 horsepower four wheel drive tractor.

OCB

Some people give their services for the enjoyment of others and some charge for their services.  And some that benefit from services offered for free will offer something back in return, whether helping with the clean up or by showing consideration to a total stranger some other time.  Generosity has its own rewards.

I don't know the regulations that may prevent GLF&MC from doing so, but I'd be inclined to hunt out a revenue stream to pay for upkeep and repairs to a 40 horsepower four wheel drive tractor.  If another club wants access to the range, you can't charge them for it?

I got no problem payin' one way or another.

BP

[Irish Dave]

Black Powder:

FYI, OCB and Steel Horse were, I'm sure, referring to the new Scarlet Mask Vigilance Society range in Martinsville, not the GLF&MC range in Modoc.

The Great Lakes range is owned by an outside individual and his wife. They run a business there. Both NCOWS and SASS shot there for many years (at primarily GLFMC targets) with no problems at all to speak of. The fact that SASS no longer uses the range is a result of talks between SASS shooters and the new landowner. GLF&MC (the NCOWS posse) has nothing to do with it.

FWIW.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Black Powder, you have a point.

The GLFMC range is well-established and doesn't often need much "motorized" help.  I'm sure that the previous owner, Dorvan, and the new owner, Mr.Crull have recouped much or all of their start-up costs.  On the other hand, the SMVS club (which is where Bill is referring to) is new.  We have "carved out" this range from Indiana forest.  Another group owns the land, but we have set our range up in an area that the parent club doesn't use. 

While I don't begrudge any member OR legitimate visitor the use of our range, what would bother me is someone coming in and NOT paying or reimbursing for the range use.  Certainly there could be a fund established after the club is totally on its feet and running smoothly.  We have, like you mentioned, given our time and some resources because we WANT to.

It is an interesting situation with GLFMC and SMVS.  MANY of our SMVS members are also members of GLFMC.  When Bill started the SMVS club and we went ahead and did the "legwork", it WASN'T to be in competition with our 'Brothers in Arms' at the Modoc club. (GLFMC)  It is just to be somewhat different and to have something in that other important way ... location ... location ... location.  We love choices and variety!

 

Some people give their services for the enjoyment of others and some charge for their services.  And some that benefit from services offered for free will offer something back in return, whether helping with the clean up or by showing consideration to a total stranger some other time.  Generosity has its own rewards.

BP

I agree completely.

As Irish Dave pointed out, it has a lot to do with ownership and profit.  No whizzin' contest here!  We don't own our range, per say - just our time and energy.  In our particular instance, I doubt that the parent company would consider renting out "our" part of the range without consulting us fully.  They are very particular about who (whom?) they allow use of their facilities, and we've had to prove ourselves to be good neighbors, so to speak. 

[Buffalow Red]

well im interested in ncows but been shooting sass as its here in my area & i am slowly trying to get more historly correct,
when i get to the point of correct enough to not be sent home ill show up to shoot but its a long way from springfield mo.
i had made plans to go to the last 2 kc events but the ice storm & $ expences not in my plan caused the wife & i to stay home
i think she was more disapointed than me as she had just finished sewing her pieorid correct dress.
mabe this dec we can make it to your feast

ps theres a lot of confussion for guest looking at ncows
i was introduced to frionteer spot for a while before finding this place , seems there was a lot of bickering in the past over there
that is a turn off