Author Topic: Reloading .45  (Read 9624 times)

Offline crossdraw

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Reloading .45
« on: May 03, 2008, 09:08:21 AM »
I started setting up my dies and working through the steps. Everything was going well except when it came to seating the 200 gr SWC bullet.
 
My manuals say that the case should be 1.285" long and the overall length of the assembled round should be 1.600" (.45 Colt).

When I seat the SWC into a Winchester case to where I have just 1/16" of shoulder above the case mouth rim, the overall length of the assembled round is 1.640".

I compared this to a factory Hornady RNFP, it measured 1.569" OAL. Both empty cases measured 1.270".

My question is, is this normal to be in a proximity of the target length of 1.600"? I would like to hold to the dimensions in the manual but if I seat this bullet any further it is not going to look very good, it already looks like its seated to far.

Also, I have some Winchester cases that have a ring pressed around the case about 3/8" down from the case mouth. They went through the resizer ok but I want to make sure they can be reloaded.
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Offline Cyrille

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2008, 12:12:16 PM »
I have reloaded that type of Winchester case with both the Holy Black and smokeless(diffrent loadings not mixed!)numerous time with no problems. As for OAL 1.600"is the goal to try for, but it's ok if the length isn't quiet there. NEVER go beyond 1.600" There should also be a minimum length listed NEVER go shorter than that. I'm sure that if I have made a mistake someone else will chime in and correct my statement. But what I have stated is to the best of my knowledge.
But wheither someone else speaks up or not I suggest you do as much research as possible.
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Offline Marshal Will Wingam

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2008, 12:40:35 PM »
I always seat my 45 Colt bullets to the crimp groove. Near as I can tell, as long as the OAL doesn't exceed 1.6, it's a go. When I load 165 grain bullets, they really look short but they work just fine as long as I crimp them correctly in the groove. They aren't as accurate as a 200 or 255 gr bullet because they have to jump a bit to engage the forcing cone but I follow the recommended loading data and everything works fine. I don't know about the SWC bullets but there should be specific loading data just for them. I'd go with whatever the reloading manual says because that should be a tested load.

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #3 on: Today at 02:06:21 AM »

Offline crossdraw

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2008, 02:50:07 PM »
Marshal
There isn't a crimp groove on these bullets just a ring filled with lube. I think I can get the OAL to 6.00 but the shoulder of the bullet will be even with top of the case. That sure makes a funny looking bullet. Other SWC's that I have seen have some shoulder beyond the case rim before the taper starts. These will go from case rim to taper with no shoulder.

Cyrille
Thanks for the info. Once this can of Unique is gone I am seriously considering Holy Black (already started the research) If I have any of these SWC bullets left I may just melt them down into Big Lube's.
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Offline Marshal Will Wingam

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2008, 11:08:53 PM »
You might want to call the manufacturer and ask them what they do to make those bullets work. Everything I load in 45 Colt does have a crimp groove. Is it possible that those bullets are designed to be loaded in 45 ACP loads? I have some bullets without crimp grooves that are made for ACP applications. I can't think of any other reason for no crimp groove.

10 minutes latrer:
I just looked on the Meister bullet site. They list a 200 gr SWC .45 cal bullet like the one you described. The bullets for 45 Colt are called .45 LC and they all have a crimp groove. There was no 200 gr SWC listed as 45 LC. From looking at the picture, the ones like you mentioned appear to have a rather long nose on them. I can see how something like that could stick out too much in a 45 Colt load. Be sure to check with the manufacturer on those. Here's a link:

http://www.meisterbullets.com/asccustompages/products.asp?s=0&categoryid=22&Page=2

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Offline crossdraw

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2008, 07:22:39 AM »
Marshal
Thanks. I did find some pictures late last night of that type of bullet, as you said it was in a ACP case. Guess I may be getting closer to   a Big Lube mold since I have about 1500 bullets that I can't use.

I seated one last night and put a slight crimp at the end, what a ugly round. They don't have a true flat nose on them which makes them useless for my EMF 92.

Thanks again 
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Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2008, 07:26:37 AM »
Howdy

1.285 is the industry standard Maximum length for 45 Colt brass. Brass is usually less than the maximum length. I just measured a random sample of my own 45 Colt brass and it is 1.275 long. That's what it is and there is no reason to fuss with it. The reason a maximum length is set is so the completed rounds will still chamber properly. All reloading manuals list both the maximum brass length and a 'trim to length'. When brass has been fired a bunch of times the pressure tends to squeeze the case wall so that the brass grows in length. If it grows too long, the case mouth will butt up against the chamber throat and prevent the cartridge from seating properly. The trim to length is the length to trim the brass back to, usually .005 or .010 less than the max length. Once brass has been trimmed back, it is reloaded until it exceeds the maximum length again. With the loads we use in Cowboy loads, pressure is usually not high enough to squeeze the brass enough so that it grows at all. All my brass is under max length and I have never had to trim any of it. That's what it is and there is no reason to worry about it.

The industry standard Overall Cartridge Length for 45 Colt is 1.600. This is often abbreviated as either OAL or COAL. Sometimes COL. Again, this is a Maximum length. There is nothing that says ammo has to be that long. The idea behind cartridge OAL is a little bit different than the idea behind case length. This is the length that will allow the ammo to function properly in most firearms. With a revolver, all that is important is that the bullet does not protrude from the face of the chamber and interfere with the rotation of the cylinder. Other than that, if if the round exceeds the Maximum OAL by a bit, it does not matter. A rifle may be a different story. Most rifles will have a 'window' of cartridge length that they operate best with. They almost all operate well with the industry standard Maximum OAL. How short you can load them and still have the rifle operate reliably will depend on the individual rifle, there is no published standard for this, you just have to figure it out for your own rifle. I will tell you that I have an Uberti '73 chambered for 44-40 that actually feeds best when I load my rounds .010 or so over the industry standard Maximum OAL for 44-40.

Most bullets have a crimp groove cast into them. The bullet designer purposely places the crimp groove so that when brass is crimped into the groove the finished round will not exceed the industry Maximum Cartridge OAL.

If you are using a SWC bullet without a crimp groove, I suspect the bullet was designed to be loaded into the 45 ACP round, not the 45 Colt round. Semi-Auto rounds are usually crimped with a taper crimp, not a roll crimp, and the taper crimp does not function properly in a crimp groove. 45 ACP headspaces on the case mouth and the case mouth needs to be partially exposed for this to happen. That's what a taper crimp does. This does not mean you cannot use these bullets, but without a crimp groove your crimp must physically bite into the lead to hold the bullet in place. Otherwise the spring pressure of a rifle magazine spring, or the momentum of heavy recoil can cause the bullet to move in the case. I would not worry so much about what the bullet looks like, regarding how much shoulder is exposed, the important thing is, is there enough lead exposed to allow a good heavy crimp to bite into the bullet.

I have two pieces of advice for you.

First, and most important, whenever you are setting up your dies for the first time, or whenever you readjust them to seat a new type of bullet, ALWAYS make up some dummy rounds without primers or powder. These dummy rounds can than be used to assure they will function properly in your firearms, making sure the bullets do not interfere with the rotation of the cylinder and making sure the rounds feed properly through your rifles. There is no sense making up live rounds only to find out they will not function well in your guns. New reloaders often do not want to sacrifice any of their precious bullets for dummy rounds, but it will save you a lot of headaches in the future if you make up some dummy rounds. You can make them up in a few different OALengths until you find what works best for your guns. Afterwards, save the dummy rounds and label them as to exactly what bullet is in them, and what their OAL is. This will assist you in setting up your seating/crimp die the next time you load that bullet.

Second, frankly, if it wuz me, I would not use those bullets. For revolvers and rifles I always use a bullet that has a crimp groove. It just makes life much simpler. You will get a better crimp if you use a bullet with a crimp groove. The bullet will be mechanically locked in place better in a crimp groove and will have less tendancy to move in the case under magazine spring pressure or heavy recoil. Remember, interior space is very important. If your bullet telescopes further into the case under the combined forces of magazine spring pressure and the jolt the round receives every time the carrier strips a round out of the magazine, your pressure will increase. Using a bullet with a crimp groove will help prevent that from happening, and in addition, the Cartridge OAL will probably be automatically under the Maximum length.

For what it's worth, my 45 Colt rounds loaded with the Big Lube PRS 250 grain bullet are 1.550 in length. I know the guy that designed the J/P 45-200 round, and when he designed it, he had to place the crimp groove so that it resulted in a slightly shorter round. I don't have any rounds loaded up with that bullet right now, but I seem to remember they were something like 1.480 long. I understand the bullet design was changed slightly and the OAL will be a little bit longer with the newer design.
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Offline crossdraw

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2008, 09:17:39 AM »
Driftwood
Thanks for the help.
I decided to not use these bullets because I believe they are ACP. After looking at some exploded pistol pictures where one cause was thought to be a bullet shifting position I have decided to buy some with a crimp groove.
On these SWC's the crimp is over the top of the shoulder. While this would keep the bullet from moving forward it won't stop it from moving aft.

Can you explain the difference between a roll crimp and a taper crimp? I am using RCBS dies.

The one round that I did do was a dummy, I want to make sure I have the process down correctly before I mess with anything that explodes. I did adjust the powder measure and learned that each throw of the handle has to be consistent or a slight variation of powder weight will result. I will probably weigh each load until I get consistent on the throws.

After Church today I am going to try and find some 250 gr RNFP bullets locally.
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Offline boot strap jack

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2008, 01:22:34 PM »
You will like the 250 rnfp better. I myself always give the powder measure a extra tap with the handle on the up stroke. This I feel makes a more consistent throw. Well that is what my powder scale says anyway. On my dillion 550,  I have not used it enough to figure out any tricks yet. ;)

Offline Marshal Will Wingam

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2008, 02:35:05 PM »
A roll crimp actually seats the case into a groove in the bullet. A taper crimp merely squeezed the bullet without actually curling the tip of the case inward.

If your RCBS die is a taper crimp die it would be good to replace it with a roll crimp die for 45 Colt cartridges. The best ones are the Redding Profile Crimp die which does a taper crimp to a roll crimp so it holds the sides of the case in while it does the roll crimp, and the Lee Factory Crimp die. Both do a great job and the Lee is much less expensive. I have both and use them a lot with good results.

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Offline crossdraw

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2008, 04:18:48 PM »
All I could find local were 200g lead RNFP Suters choice bullets. I bought them so I don't have to wait a week for an online order. These have the crimp groove and say .45 Colt.

Others have said the 200g's shoot ok but I don't remember how they do in a lever action 92.
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Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2008, 05:49:33 PM »
Howdy

As I said earlier, a taper crimp is usually applied to semi-auto ammo that headspaces on the case mouth, a roll crimp is usually applied to revolver ammo that headspaces on the rim. A roll crimp looks just as the name implies, the crimp is rolled over with a radius, so the actual case mouth is buried in the crimp groove. This crimp is not suitable for semi-auto ammo that headspaces on the case mouth because of the rounded over profile it gives to the crimp. A taper crimp does not roll the crimp over, it slightly bends the case mouth so that the crimp is tapered, not rolled. A tapered crimp will leave about half of the thickness of the brass exposed at the case mouth, so there will be a solid square shoulder exposed to butt up to the square cut in the chamber at the chamber throat.

The die makers have already figured this all out for us. Most dies made for revolver ammo come with a seating/crimp die that makes a roll crimp. Most dies made for semi-auto ammo come with a crimp die that forms a taper crimp. I use regular RCBS carbide 45 Colt dies when I load 45 Colt. The crimp die forms a roll crimp.

Be sure you make up several dummy rounds, not just one, so you can cycle them through your rifle. Those Round Nosed Flat Point bullets will probably feed better than your SWC bullets because there is no sharp edge to catch on the chamber as the cartridge rides up the carrier into the chamber. 92s can be a little bit fussy that way. As far as OAL, just crimp them in the crimp groove and see how they cycle and feed. You will probably be fine. If you want to you can adjust your OAL by a few thousandths by varying the seating depth slightly, but not by very much if you want to keep your crimps in the crimp groove.  Be sure to set a few aside so that if you change your die setting you can find it again easily.
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Offline crossdraw

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2008, 10:06:29 PM »
Hi Driftwood
I just ran 30 rounds through and am happy with the outcome. My RCBS dies do say Colt 45. Once I got the seater adjusted the crimp pushed into to the bullet some so there isn't much of a case rim exposed. When I run my finger across the bullet and case there is a real smooth transition.
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Offline Adirondack Jack

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2008, 11:52:47 PM »
Howdy

As I said earlier, a taper crimp is usually applied to semi-auto ammo that headspaces on the case mouth, a roll crimp is usually applied to revolver ammo that headspaces on the rim. A roll crimp looks just as the name implies, the crimp is rolled over with a radius, so the actual case mouth is buried in the crimp groove. This crimp is not suitable for semi-auto ammo that headspaces on the case mouth because of the rounded over profile it gives to the crimp. A taper crimp does not roll the crimp over, it slightly bends the case mouth so that the crimp is tapered, not rolled. A tapered crimp will leave about half of the thickness of the brass exposed at the case mouth, so there will be a solid square shoulder exposed to butt up to the square cut in the chamber at the chamber throat.

The die makers have already figured this all out for us. Most dies made for revolver ammo come with a seating/crimp die that makes a roll crimp. Most dies made for semi-auto ammo come with a crimp die that forms a taper crimp. I use regular RCBS carbide 45 Colt dies when I load 45 Colt. The crimp die forms a roll crimp.

Be sure you make up several dummy rounds, not just one, so you can cycle them through your rifle. Those Round Nosed Flat Point bullets will probably feed better than your SWC bullets because there is no sharp edge to catch on the chamber as the cartridge rides up the carrier into the chamber. 92s can be a little bit fussy that way. As far as OAL, just crimp them in the crimp groove and see how they cycle and feed. You will probably be fine. If you want to you can adjust your OAL by a few thousandths by varying the seating depth slightly, but not by very much if you want to keep your crimps in the crimp groove.  Be sure to set a few aside so that if you change your die setting you can find it again easily.

Driftwood ole pard, not to be contrary for it's own sake, but I've mentioned before that LEE Taper Crimp dies (an some others, notably Hornady off the top of my head) absolutely will do a fair roll crimp if ya simply crank em down some more.

AAMOF, I got suckered into thinking I needed LEE "autorim" dies, and when I got em, they absolutely were ACP dies (which I already owned) with just a different shell plate.


compare the crimps made by "long Colt" dies and ACP dies in this pic.  Now of course if I wanted to, I could back off the ACP die and get a taper crimp
like this:


done with the same die.
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Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2008, 10:28:29 AM »
Well, that's certainly interesting AJ. I was just shooting up some 45AR out of my 1917s last week. I loaded it up with a standard Hornady 45 ACP/AR die set. I'll have to take a closer look at what ammo I have left, but I'm sure it probably has a pretty good roll crimp on it.
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Offline crossdraw

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Re: Reloading .45
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2008, 06:46:01 PM »
I have another question. Do any of you apply a dry film lube to the bullet after the round has been seated and wiped down? I have some 321 dry film lube and was wondering if this would be a good thing to do.
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