USFA Parts-authentic or slightly modified from the original

[Virginia Gentleman]

On the Gun Reviews section of this board I asked the age old question, USFA or Colt and one of the posters there indicated that the USFA bolt is not a true copy of the Colt, but a copy of the Uberti part.  The original Colt part, to me at least, looks a bit fragile and the USFA and Uberti part looks stronger.  The poster claims the original Colt part makes the action smoother, but I have not found this to be the case with my guns.  Here is the link:

http://www.gunfighter.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3309

PS: I know that USFA has beefed up the cylinder for more safety which is not a bad thing or makes it too heavy to have a smooth action.  Seems like more Colt-aholic Kool Aide to me!

Opinions and or additional facts please....

[Fox Creek Kid]

This will be interesting. 

[Virginia Gentleman]

Here is some additional propaganda that is being made at the GunfighterZone about how much better Colt is: (Note USF is supposed to be USFA) 

Yes the Colt is mechanically superior to the Uberti & the USF & so is the AWA,one of the reasons is the Colt bolt &AWA bolt is a better design is because of the way it passes over the cam when cocking the gun,it has a more gradual degree on the bolt tine radius & passes over the cam w/less pressure & the cam is a replaceable if it wears because of hard use or ill fit parts.The Uberti & USF use the very same bolt in their guns & the degree on the bolt tine radius is more radical so as it passes over the cam the radius being the degree that it is goes over the cam a little harder & will tend to wear quicker & the cam on the hammer isn't replaceable in either gun as it should be.The Vaquero is a strong gun & will take quite a bit of hard use but I'm prejudiced because I don't like any SA w/a transfer bar.I have built Colts & AWA's to be used in fast draw & they seem to be working in that sport,& the cyl. notches are holding up under use,but I don't think the USF or Uberti bolt would holdup in fast draw,Cowboy fast draw is a whole different story they are working in that sport but regular fast draw is much harder on the guns.The quality control on the Ubertis isn't very good & most of the time the parts aren't fit very good because the assemblers @ the factory are on "piecework" the more guns they build in a day the more money they make,do the math.The Uberti springs are not the best quality,the USF's have good springs now that they've quit using Uberti springs & their quality control is not bad,but then Colt's quality control has dropped some from what it used to be,AWA's quality control has come way up from what it was several years ago when the guns were assembled in Italy,now they're assembled in Florida,the metal in all these guns is pretty close to being the same but the heat treating can vary,a good rule of thumb when buying a SA is you're going to get what u pay for,the cheaper the price the cheaper quality of the gun.

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[Lash Batson]

*sigh*

I wondered how long it would take for this discussion to migrate over here. This topic recently got so hot on the SASS wire that the 'discussion' devolved into name calling and the moderators pulled it.

The cooler heads (and the ones I happen to agree with) stated that its not the overall shape of the bolt that matter, but rather the bearing surfaces. As long as the bearing surfaces have the same geometry the bolt could be shaped like my aunt fanny and it wouldn't make a dang bit of difference.

But some colt bigots feel a strange need to justify the extra dollars spent on their sixguns and/or denigrate what they see as a 'lesser' brand.

I say shoot what you want and love what you shoot. Can't we all just get along?


— Lash Batson

[Curley Cole]

I was unfrotunatly a part of that fiasco, but a point was made just before the thread was pulled by a person whose name I forgot, but appeared to be an expert on smithing. The picture in question was not clear,and he said it was a moot point as all those parts are made "oversize" in order to be essenitally ground down to an individual fit.

I agree, buy what you want, and can afford and shoot what you like. I like Great Westerns.

Thats my story and I am stickin with it

Curley

[Fox Creek Kid]

The gunsmith was probably Nate Kiowa Jones, a real standup fella it seems. He SLAMMED some Colt "expert" in a SASS Wire thread a while back!! Actually, he OWNED him!!      As I believe Pettifogger stated in another thread here, BOTH have their merits and it's simply a matter of personal preference. The best summation IMO is that if you're going to leave it in a box and then live another hundred years then buy the Colt from an investment standpoint. If you want beauty, quality, appreciate craftsmanship AND want to hit what you shoot at then buy the USFA. 

[North Bender]

I thought that the lack of responses to that bolt post on the Gunfighters forum meant that people had realized how silly the subject is.

That photo is hopelessly poor.  There was a link posted to that pulled fiasco thread that showed various Colt bolts through the years; some of which looked exactly like the poorly photographed USFA bolt.

There is a small but Very Vocal minority out there that are not doing Colt any favors.

[Doc Sunrise]

Here is my take on the sillyness of this whole thing. 

First, I think it is hilarious that some person decided that the BOLT is where the final comparison separates ways.  If they would open their eyes they would clearly see that USFA SAA's are of a wholesome beauty that we could only dream about until USFA came along since no one has made the fit and feel with the kind of American quality that was witnessed in the 1st gen. Colts.

Second, if Colt was concerned about improving on the age old deisign of the SAA, they would have more than likely made the same type of improvements that todays manufacturers have made.  Example, beefed up cylinder, better metallurgy on springs, and todays machinery with more consistent tolerances for just a few.  Remember, Bill Ruger not only knew the SAA had a market demand, but he also knew it needed some improvements.

Third, how do we know that proposed USFA Bolt in the picture wasn't an early USFA Bolt that was made by Uberti.  I know for a fact that all of the parts are now manufactured here in the USA, but to get off the ground USFA did have parts made by Uberti and then custom assembled and finished them here, much like the Second gen. Black Powder Colts.  Anybody can go to the factory and ask Gary for a tour.

Finally, the real beauty of the SAA is after the machining, it is in its hand craftsmanship that makes each gun a custom fitted firearm.  To trim metal in the right places for that custom fit, there needs to be metal there to begin with.

As far as I am concerned, USFA SAA's are not Colt Clones.  USFA SAA's are custom American made Single Action Firearms with the kind of quality our Grandfathers grew up with, and they blow anything in its Class away, including the Colt itself.
I am entitled to that opinion, and I will exercise my right to display my opinion by buying USFA SAA's, lots of them! 

[Curley Cole]

The gunsmith was probably Nate Kiowa Jones, a real standup fella it seems. He SLAMMED some Colt "expert" in a SASS Wire thread a while back!! Actually, he OWNED him!!      As I believe Pettifogger stated in another thread here, BOTH have their merits and it's simply a matter of personal preference. The best summation IMO is that if you're going to leave it in a box and then live another hundred years then buy the Colt from an investment standpoint. If you want beauty, quality, appreciate craftsmanship AND want to hit what you shoot at then buy the USFA. 

No, it wasn't NKJ, it was another guy a "Colt Speicalist" who I didn't know (but then I don't know everyone!) but he listed his credentials and sounded smart...but he did state the facts as they were.. I let my "temper" get the best of me when I was name called twice, and then I even got emails at home to continue the "discussion" from the same fool.,  which did not please me one bit...anyways it was interesting...and I wish I could remenber that guys name..I may have to look for that info..

Curley

[Doc Sunrise]

What did the name caller think, because he was angry USFA should stop making their guns better than others, including Colt?

[Virginia Gentleman]

I'm just glad we are more civilized here on the USFA SASS board.   I pretty much guessed that would be the real skinny on this, the bolts if fit correctly would make no difference in smoothness with a beefed up design.  Again, to me it looks like the Uberti design (USFA USA Made Copy too) is beefier and an improvement on the old design, so how the heck can that be bad?  I am still amused how Colt-aholics are confounded and frustrated by the superior quality and authenticity that USFA has brought to the SAA market.     BTW, we all know Colt seriously modified the SAA design with the 3rd generation Colts, so they must be even less authentic when compared to a 1st generation Colt or a USFA for that matter.  There was also some talk about Colt having better metallurgy, but I have yet to see any credible evidence of that.  4130 or 4140 steel is just that no matter who makes it.  USFA's steel is probably as good or better than Colt's.  Just my 2 cents.

[Trooper224]

I'm just as big a Colt fan as anyone, I'm just not a fan-atic.  I own several Colts and have let several more go over the years.  I've only purchased one Colt SAA and while it may be over thirty years old it's a good one and a keeper.  I've also been involved with firearms, both professionally and as a hobby, for a long time.  While I'd love to be able to say Colt makes the best single-action hands down it just isn't the case.  Anyone who is totally objective can't help but admit that USFA is currently making the finest single-action of the Colt type, it's obvious when comparing the two side by side.  Anyone who claims differently either has an agenda or is simply putting too much emotional investment in their "stuff".

[Virginia Gentleman]

I'm just as big a Colt fan as anyone, I'm just not a fan-atic.  I own several Colts and have let several more go over the years.  I've only purchased one Colt SAA and while it may be over thirty years old it's a good one and a keeper.  I've also been involved with firearms, both professionally and as a hobby, for a long time.  While I'd love to be able to say Colt makes the best single-action hands down it just isn't the case.  Anyone who is totally objective can't help but admit that USFA is currently making the finest single-action of the Colt type, it's obvious when comparing the two side by side.  Anyone who claims differently either has an agenda or is simply putting too much emotional investment in their "stuff".

As I have said before, Colt would be wise to let USFA make their SAA for them.   

[Doc Sunrise]

I wonder, how do you categorize Dennis Keyes, "Colt Cloner".  He is currently USFA's Master Engraver but worked on Colts for many years. 

I guess the proof is in the pudding for me, as they say.  I am a Colt Collector, and a USFA collector and shooter.  That says one thing. 

Also, I currently own 54 Colts of different models and 30 USFAs of different models, but the USFA number is growing at a faster rate than the Colt number.  That says the final thing!

[Virginia Gentleman]

I own lots of Colts too and they are collectable, but I still shoot them from time to time.  My hands down favorites are my USFA guns as they are so well made and even nicer to shoot than the Colts.  I refuse to waste my money on a new Colt since quality and authenticity went out the window a long time ago. As far as parts authenticity, if USFA copied a Uberti bolt that is oversized and more robust, that is a small departure from the original design, unlike Colt 3rd generations that until recently used swaged in cylinder bushings, incorrect threads on the barrel and different hand configuration.  To me the USFA is way closer to a 1st generation Colt than the current third generation is by a mile.

[Doc Sunrise]

One would have to wonder what Colt would do if they lost their military contracts because they are so lacking in the commercial market.  Other companies are alive and well because they carry a good balance of firearms to please a wide variety of people, and a military contract is the bonus instead of the lifeline.  Colt seems to be riding with most of their eggs in one basket, and having only one real lifeline is never a good thing.

 

[Virginia Gentleman]

It seems they lost the full contract for the M-16 to FN Herstal years ago and are only making M4s for the military right now.  I agree, with the sloppy quality for the money you pay for a SAA, 1911 type or even an AR-15 it is amazing they can keep the commercial doors open.  Then again, there are legions of Colt-aholic lemmings that will insist that a Colt 3rd generation is as good or better than a USFA or other clone, harping the collectability/value/nostalgia factor that are willing to hand over their hard earned dollars to a bloated union shop like Colt.  Having one contract keeping you going is a walking the plank position and it is a shame that Colt will not do what its competitors do to win over new business in the commercial sector.  BTW, this weekend we took out a friends new in the box Colt SAA that he got in his Uncle's estate settlement, let's just say I could throw rocks more accurately.  We think it was built sometime in the late 1980s.  He is going to see about having it extensively tuned by a gunsmith that really knows SAAs to try to turn a sow's ear into a purse.

[Doc Sunrise]

Well now,  according to the new Forum-a-holic book of etiquette, if the bolt is authentic collectors will pay a premium, just don't pay attention to those grips that move when handling the gun.

[North Bender]

This discussion was going Ok, but it's turning into Colt bashing.  I don't think there's any need for that.  USFA pistols stand on their own merits.

[Virginia Gentleman]

Sorry you see it that way, but sometimes the truth is ugly...at least for Colt.  No flame, just the facts. They have lost market share and continue to barely survive off of a reputation of their products of yesteryear.  They claim so much authenticity, when in fact the 3rd generation guns are so different in so many ways, the only real thing they have in common with a 1st generation is the little pony stamped on the side.   True, USFA stands on its own merits and the true quality that has become the standard by which all SAAs today are judged.