Which Italian Replica .45 would you buy?

[Black Powder]

Greetings –

Hope everybody had a wonderful Christmas.

I’ve been enjoying reading all your discussions, and I’m kinda wanting to narrow the focus of the current “What is your favorite CAS pistol and why?” thread.

I’m still in research mode, but Dad was very generous with his gift, he knows my interest in getting into CAS activity and I found a retailer nearby to do business with on this, my first purchase.

Fair warning: what I am asking is not meant to stir up a heated debate amongst you enthusiasts and knowledgeable folks.  I read a thread on another wire on a similar question, and it wasn’t pretty!

I’m a guest, not here to stir things up.  Y’all seem to get along so well, and some of you I recognize from another wire but if the pebble I’m about to toss into the bond creates a tsunami, I’m gonna feel mighty bad. 

OK, here goes…

Whose six-shooter should I buy that meets these criteria?
     • Replica ’73 Colt
     • .45 cal
     • 7 ½“
     • $400-$700 range retail
     • Not Ruger

OK.  There.  I asked.  Is everybody all right?  Of course this is personal preference but these are exactly what I want to hear.

Here’s my perspective:
     • Remington is definitely on the wish list, but after I get the Colt replica.
     • Historical “correctness” is important.  Please, no discussions about what defines “clone”, “real”, etc.  I was born and raised in the suburbs; I cannot claim anything “real” to the spirit of the Cowboy any more than I can the Civil War soldier, but I’m fine with my Army Sport .61 Springfield and Pietta Colt ’60 Army.  I want to get the closest facsimile to a ’73 Colt .45 as I can.
     • Gonna shoot the Holy Black.
     • Cannot have a transfer bar safety.  I have the impression that whether or not it was available, it was not common and therefore, I’m rejecting a firearm that has it.  If my view is too narrow or limited, please let me know.
     • I’ve moved the bar up from $400 to $700.  Thanks Dad.
     • I’m seriously considering these:
          o AWA Ultimate or Peacekeeper
          o Cimarron Frontier Six-Shooter
          o EMF Great Western II
     • Before upgrading, these were in the running (and maybe are still the better choice?):
          o Cimarron Model P
          o EMF Californian or Hartford
          o Taylor’s & Navy Arms strike me as more expensive and I don’t know where they are on this whole fit and finish issue of a Uberti from so’n’so being better than from so’n’so.  So please, if you like Taylor’s and Navy Arms, or any other importer of an Italian replica, I want to hear.

I cannot afford a Colt or a USFA.  Someday, I hope to have one, for all the reasons I’ve ever read here and for all of my own.  Ruger is not in the running because I personally don’t want one.  I absolutely respect everybody’s views on Colts, USFAs and Rugers!

I’m not gonna be shooting a lot.  He says now…     Really, once a month, the occasional practice.  Safety and reliability is definitely critically important and out-of-the box quality is every bit as important.  Please, if you feel absolutely that I must take any or all of the above immediately in for an action job or tweaking, say so.  I hope I can avoid the expense because I will not have the time to develop the skills to be good enough where such an investment would pay off.  If I can’t have the retailer say it’s good to go and take it to the range right away, tell me.

Frankly, I think it’s going to be about aesthetics and authenticity.  Remember, I cannot afford a Colt!  I know aesthetics is personal, eye-of-the beholder stuff.  However, if any of the massive amounts of money we’re all willing to pour out for this hobby doesn’t have something to do with just the pure joy in the aesthetics - it’s so cool to look at, I must be out to lunch.

So, let’s talk aesthetics:

     • I cannot get a close enough look on barrel markings, except the “Ultimate” which doesn’t settle well with me.  But perhaps it could be ordered without it as has been suggested.  Would y’all tell me how the markings on the barrels of the above choices compare to the real deal ’73 of the day?  I expect to see Uberti and Pietta on the barrel.  Anybody doing anything particularly gauche? 
     • How about date markings on the frame?  Who’s got ‘em, who doesn’t?
     • I’m open to considering a cavalry issue, so any reactions regarding inspector cartouche markings would be good to know.  My Pietta Army was a gift, and it’s got the markings and they’re cool.  It was a thoughtful gift, so I like it no matter what.
     • Case-hardened is important and I’d like to know if any of the above choices do it better than others, in your opinion.  Ultimate uses Turnbull and that’s compelling.  Enough to offset the barrel markings…?
     • Any of your overall opinions on fit and finish.
     • One last one, for good measure – who’d rather spend less (get Cimarron Model P, EMF Californian or Hartford) because the extra money doesn’t provide extra value in authenticity or quality?

Sorry about all the conditions.  If I violated a protocol, please accept my apologies.     I’m just wanting to make an informed decision that I won’t be thinking about immediately upgrading (I’m susceptible to that bug) and that I’ll feel good about because Dad let it happen.

My research thus far has narrowed the field to the above four.  Some of what’s been written is dated, so how about your latest, at-this-moment opinions?  I really like all these companies; their marketing, their histories, their effort, their results.  But I can support only one of them. 

So, if you could spend $700 on a relatively high-end Colt .45 replica six-shooter, what’d be?

Thank y’all.  Happy New Year!

BP

[Curley Cole]

I will tell you what I have spent my money on. I have the following (all fell within the $700, most were less)

Taylor 5 1/2 Blue/CCH 38/357
2 Engraved 5 1/2 Taylors 45lc
2 custom blue (CCH by turnbull) GW2 357
2 custom nickel GW2 45lc
1 Dome blue GW2 357

All have held up well and shot accurately. EMF has the best after sales care that you could ask for. I have taken my gun in and had it repaired while I wait for no charge.

Also if you are looking for historically correct look at the EMF Hartford black powder frame. I have a pard that has a pair and he says they are the sweetest guns he ever owned...(and you could get a pair for not much more than your stated limit.)

If I can answer any questions give me a holler. But ya should call EMF and talk to Buffalo Peet (Don) RAB or Debbie, and tell them Curley sent ya....

Curley

[Curley Cole]

A couple of things I forgot,

The GW2 has changed the markings, Alchlmetia told me in an email they were anticipating problems from Colt so now leave them off. EMF has an army Hartford with the cartouches etc.
The GW2's actions are smooth right outta the box. Hartfords smooth out with a bit of shooting.

You can see most of my guns on my web page:

http://sdough.smugmug.com

Go to the gallery Art (I think, ) and find the gallery "Just For Fun"

and if I can be any help just holler.

cc

[Advertising]

[Marshal Will Wingam]

I've had 4 AWA Peacekeepers. They were all good pistols. I still keep a pair around even though I prefer shooting Remingtons. I had a pair of Evil Roy Cimarrons that were superb pistols but I don't know if they're available in 7 1/2".

[Abilene]

Dang, I posted a long reply but it didn't show up 

Regarding Marshal Wingam's comment, the Evil Roys do come in 7 1/2" but the checkered wood grips were probably not real common back then and the wide competition sights are not historically correct.

[Ten Wolves Fiveshooter]

Howdy Pard

    I've got two Great Western 2 Stainless Steel 7 1/2 " barreled 45 long colt's, colt parts are interchangable, these gun's were SMOOOOOOTH right out of the box , their accurate , and I really love um.. and thats that.

                                          Ten Wolves 

[Black Powder]

Great thoughts, thank you.  This ain’t gonna be easy!  The second purchase will be in different length, so I can take my sense of obligation to buy from whomever I didn’t purchase my first six-gun from!

CC – what a terrific website.  You take nice pics.  Very pleasant time visiting.  Thank you.  Oh, and those musicians: don’t see any drummers.  You looking for one?

MWW – I think it has to have been a couple computers ago when I started to feel the itch and got the impression then that their Peacekeeper was the replica of choice.  I’m starting to track those asking prices on GunsAmerica & GunBroker.

Abilene – There’s no way I could easily and quickly find out that level of detail.  Very much appreciated.  Sorry ya lost the rest of your reply!

BP

[Curley Cole]

Thanks for the compliment pard,
Visit any time you like, I update on a regular basis. as for the musicians, the ones in the portrait section was my wifes ex husband and our brother in law. They were band mates in the 70's and I did some shots that sorta replicated a promo pix they had..sorta 20yrs later thing. The 12 string guitar was my toy

as for The guns, I can write a little better now, my work computer was running slow. Anyways, any of the replicas are good, but I believe that EMF can give you a real good deal and help you get what you want,and their customer service following purchase if first rate,

and as I said if I can answer any questions, give a holler...

so good shootin
Curley

[Virginia Gentleman]

Dude:  If it is in your budget, get the Cimarron Frontier Six Shooter with the US Finish by Turnbull.  YOU WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED!!!!! I love mine in .45 Colt and even got the extra .45 ACP cylinder fitted for cheaper shooting.  I have several Colts and USFAs and it blows away the Colt in fit and finish and is very, very, very close to USFA in quality and comes with wood one piece grips and not plastic grips. The case colors are authentic, not a European chemical case color and the action is smooth right out of the box with the 4 clicks like the Colt of yesteryear.  Cimarron I believe still roll marks their guns with period correct fonts and patent dates with no Italian proof marks or anything indicating Uberti.  None of their guns have the import required hammer mounted safety device either.  I also think this gun comes with Wolffe springs in it and is tuned up a bit extra at the home office in Texas. BTW, mine outshoots the Colts I own too and stays right up there with the USFA in accuracy. Cimarron also seems to stand behind their product if there is ever a problem and they seem to treat their customers well in my experience, something Colt should take a lesson from.  If I could not have a USFA for my first SAA I would make this my top choice over others for the reasons I've outlined.

[Pettifogger]

I've got at least a pair of pretty much everything on the market including a pair of blue GWIIs and a pair of stainless GWIIs.  The GWIIs and in particular the stainless are outstanding guns for the money.

I see that USFA has lowered the price on the Rodeo to $550.00.  This is far and away the best single action for the money.  Only problem is it does not come with a 7 1/2" barrel.

[Old Top]

Black Powder,

I can second Curly Cole's recomendation of EMF, I have gotten nothing but excellent service from them.  I might suggest that you look at the deals that can be had there I did notice that they have a SASS speciial where you can get the shotgun pistols and rifle, the pistols are Hartfords, and the rifle is a 92 I would at least look in to there offer.  One other suggestion is to go to a shoot and ask to fire the guns you are interested in, I found that the GW II is a very good gun but does not fit my hand (I am working on changing the grips to something that fits better) so I shoot Remingtons (from EMF) and Schofields (from Navy Arms) and find they work better for me.  All of my pistols are 7 1/2 inch barrels but I may be talking to EMF on a set of 5 1/2 inch 1890 Remingtons.  This is a game of finding what works for you, I have never run into a shooter who would not let me try their guns if asked, so I would check out the ones that you are interested in.

Old Top

[Virginia Gentleman]

Black Powder:

I re read your post and I think the Cimarron is still the best choice over the GW II for both authenticity and asthetics.  The GW II and the AWA are very nice guns, but their barrel markings are incorrect to duplicate the 1st generation SAA.  If the GWII doesn't do the patent dates, to me, that would put it out of the running.  Cimarron has it all, correct patent dates, correct fonts, fire blued small parts (like 1st generation SAA Colts), real bone case colors by Turnbull who knows how to properly duplicate true case colors, no offensive proof marks and tuned in the USA.  The one piece walnut grips are a nice touch and it is available in a 7 1/2" barrel length.  I have to stress that in my stage in life I could buy any current production SAA, including Colt with my first choice being USFA and my very close second is the Cimarron US Finish (FSS).  I would bet you would be very happy if you chose the Cimarron FSS.

[Fox Creek Kid]

Many advanced collectors do not feel that Turnbull's case colors are 100% correct. Dean Menck probably does the best job. Some people take this "reproduction" stuff too far. Even modern made SAA's are not like 1st gen. (which used iron for frames until the 1880's). The rifling is different as well. Personally, I think a fella shooting an Uberti with REAL BP is more authentic than a fella shooting a 3rd gen. Colt with Unique. 

[Irish Dave]

1) Beretta Laramie
2) Cimarron Model P
3) Uberti Schofield

...can't imagine anything further.
Just MHO.

[Abilene]

BP,
Let me try to reply again in some detail and hope this post shows up 

Some of the replies are fairly off the mark regarding the requests of your initial post.  Some folks are telling you what guns they like and have given them good performance, etc. but you seem to be looking for authenticity in particular.

I have only owned Colts and Cimarrons.  I'm sure there may be other brands that will meet your needs but I haven't had enough of them in my hands for a good examination to know for sure.  As far as the Cimarrons go, the Frontier Six Shooter certainly meets your needs as well as anything in my opinion.  It is just a Model P of the "Old Model" (aka black powder frame) variety that has been disassembled, shipped to Turnbull for the case-hardening and carbonna blue, and reassembled in Texas.  Someone mentioned that there are no proof marks or maker marking.  All Cimarrons have most of the proof marks hidden under the triggerguard and ejector housing, but there is a proof mark visible on the bottom of the frame by the serial number.  Also, the guns do have Uberti and Made in Italy on the barrel as well as Cimarron and Fredericksburg Texas (in the correct font, and roll-marked, not stamped).  They have to have those marks visible to be legal.

Now for the bad news.  The Frontier Six Shooter in 7 1/2" 45LC ( model MP514US01 ) is not currently in stock at Cimarron.  Standard MP514's are, but if you want the Frontier Six Shooter finish by Turnbull you will have to order it and wait (not as bad as waiting on the Italians, but a wait to be sure).

Other things besides finish and markings to look for on any gun you are considering:

1. Sights.  Some of the current imports have square front and rear sights which are better for competition but are not authentic.  The first gen Colts had a V-notch rear and a tapered blade front.  (there was also an early pinched-frame rear sight but I think that was very rare).

2. Hammers.  You obviously want a firing pin on the hammer.  Some, not all, of the non-Cimarron Ubertis will also have a "hammer-block safety" which is separate piece on the hammer below the firing pin with internal linkage to the sear to keep the gun from firing unless the trigger is pulled.  The block is only visible with the gun cocked, but they will also have a visible vertical slot in the rear of the hammer.  I think this type of hammer would probably rule out a gun from your requirements.  I'm not positive but think that the Piettas all have correct hammers.

3. Cylinder base pin.  All the current Ubertis (and at least some of the Piettas, not sure if all of them), even the Ubertis with the hammer-block-safety hammers, have a two-position cylinder base pin which is considered a safety (a safety is required for import).  When pushed all the way in, the pin protrudes through the hole in the hammer cutout and prevents the hammer from falling fully and the gun won't fire.  It must be in the forward position to shoot, but it is then protruding from the frame further than a Colt.  A small item to be sure, but visibly not authentic.  Fortunately, easily remedied.  Some folks replace the base pin with a Colt-style pin but all you have to do is grind off the rear 1/8" of the pin and then it goes bang when it is inserted fully.

4. Frame style.  Many of the imports have the transverse spring loaded push button to secure the cylinder pin.  This frame was not offered by Colt until the mid 1890's.  If you want the gun to be authentic to an earlier time period, you will need the so-called black powder frame with the base-pin securing screw that screws into the front of the frame.  If you don't mind the gun being authentic to a later time period, then you have many more options from all the makers.

You also mentioned the 7th Cavalry Cimarron.  This gun has the Italian finish, but does have all the correct military markings on the frame and grip frame as well as the grip cartouche.  More bad news, the Artillery in 5 1/2" is in stock but not the 7 1/2" Cavalry.  You might find one at a stocking dealer (Philip Rezac, Buffalo Arms, etc) or from one of the distributors like Accusport. 

Any gun you buy should be totally shootable out of the box without an action job.  Action jobs make the guns smoother and much easier to cycle, plus they reduce wear on the internal parts if you shoot a lot.  But you can also just install an inexpensive spring kit which will go a long way towards the same results.

Suggestions to go to shoots and ask to see and/or shoot guns are always good, although the chances of finding all the specific models you are looking for are not great.

Good luck, and remember that no matter what you get, you will probably be getting more later.  And more.  And more 

[Black Powder]

Now that’s the kind of help I was lookin’ for!  Thanks everybody. 

But this isn’t workin’ right…  I’m not narrowing down my choices at all!  They all sound like quality pieces that I’d feel good about owning!

Valid point about taking the history thing too far, which is why I know, for instance, to expect Italian markings.  But if I can avoid carrying a company’s neon billboard on the barrel, that’s the first gun for me.  I’ll be more than happy to tell the whole world whose brand I bought, just like y’all do so well and usefully here.

I have been to a shoot.  That’s when the bug for this tightened its grip on me!  I’m kinda counting on actually having to borrow guns from the members of the club that sponsored the shoot, after checking well in advance of course.  As dopey as this may sound, I think I may feel better about my first .45 purchase if I know I did my due diligence on the authentic-within-my-budget issues as opposed to whether I’d actually sampled them.  Here on the north coast of Ohio (no playoffs TY  ), it'll take me till July to even find these guns to sample.  As was suggested, no matter what I get, I will probably be getting more later!

Believe it does narrow down to knowing at least the easy-to-avoids or compromises to authenticity.  It’s things like sights, barrel markings, patent dates, safeties, and the like that are useful to cull out when trying to replicate a '73 .45 as authentically as possible.

Sounds like both the Cimarron Model P and Frontier Six-Shooters are the front-runners in this regard.  I gotta tell ya though, that I really want to hear from you GWII enthusiasts about the GWII sights, barrel markings, patent dates, safeties, and the like.  For both Custom and Californian.  I’d read somewhere that the EMF may have changed the GW markings.  Plus since these are Pietta and Cimarron is Uberti, the compare/contrast would be useful for now and future reference for gun #2  .

And I bet if I saw that EMF package deal, I’d be happy with that too.  Probably not my wife though  …

Again, thanks for your input.  This is great.  More details on authenticity and happy out-of-the-box reactions will be greatly appreciated.

Happy New Year.  Be safe - stay off the roads!

BP

[Marshal Will Wingam]

Uh-huh. Yer hooked.

[Black Powder]

Uh-huh. Yer hooked.

No kiddin'.  Where's the "Intervention" Board?  I know the remedy is in the monthly shoots, but that's months away...

BP

[Doc Sunrise]

BP,

The USFA SAA is within your reach and well worth it.  I know it does not fit your Italian Replica since it is 100% American made, but you will not be sorry.  Talk to Gary Granger at USFA, they have some nice SAA's in stock with great prices.  If USFA still is not able to be among your choices, I would tend to agree that the Cimarron with its USA finish, which the Bone Case is done by Doug Turnbull, is an excellent choice that does meet your criteria very well.

[Virginia Gentleman]

Abilene:

Good points on the Cimarrons, however, on my US finished gun, I can not find a Uberti mark anywhere and the proof mark on the frame is so faint, it is almost invisible.  The standard Uberti guns have proof marks all over the place and it is true the Cimarrons have it under the frame near the trigger guard near the serial number, but stamped kind of weak.  True about the blackpowder frame as I too would recommend it for authenticity as well.  Cimarron told me the US Finish guns have parts that are hand selected and smoothed over before they send them to Turnbull and when compared to their standard offering, this looks to be the case as they appear to be much more crisp on the edges on the frame and culinder flutes are well polsihed too. 

Fox Creek Kid:

As to Turnbull's case colors not looking 100% correct, they are new and have not aged and faded for 75-135 years so the case colors probably look a bit vibrant for collectors that are used to seeing the older guns.  I have met many people that are collectors that have told me that Turnbull is one of the best at duplicating the historical bone case color process.  This other person Dean Menck may do good work too, but how well is he recognized....? I have never read or heard about him.  Turnbull has more supporters in the collector/restoration field than any other I know of.

Black Powder:

For the most authenticity, I would wait on getting the Turnbull finished Cimarron or wait and save a few more shillings and go for the USFA.