New to BP...and on a budget !

[Dodge City Slicker]

My interest is CAS, and I have a few questions.
I was thinking of purchasing a Pietta/Uberti Remington 1858 Army. Which is the better make, and the Brass or Steel frame ?...also the Kirst Cartridge Converter... does this work ok ?...I read somewhere that Pietta machining tolerances can vary from revolver to revolver and other makes of cartridge cylinders dont fit very well.
I also need a good 'starter book' on the tools needed, how to reload and care for a BP revolver.
Thanks

[Frenchie]

Welcome to the Funny Farm, aka the Dark Side!

Used to be, Pietta wasn't as good as Uberti, but lately the quality gap has narrowed quite a bit. I have three Piettas and no serious complaints about any of them. My two Ubertis are somewhat better finished, but not really any more reliable.

Everyone who makes cartridge converter cylinders say they must not be used in a brass-framed revolver. I personally think this is overkill, but all in all, you'll be happier with steel frames. The only reason to have a brass-framed revolver is if you're doing Reb and want to carry a repro of the Spiller & Burr (which you can't get a conversion cylinder for) or a Griswold and Gunnison or Schneider and Glassick, which were Confederate copies that had brass frames because of a shortage of iron and steel in the South, and they were all .36 caliber.

Kirst Cartridge Konverters are fine, but so are the R&D drop-in cylinders. You have to decide if you want to make a real "firearm" as defined by our friends at the BATFE, because if you get a Kirst with the K ring (with or without the loading gate) and grind a groove in the frame to load cartridges into the cylinder, you've just manufactured a real, live "firearm", even if you have the percussion cylinder in it. If you want to sell it, you have to go through an FFL holder, even if you're not selling the conversion cylinder with it. I don't want to do the work to put a loading groove in my repros, let alone the selling hassle, so I prefer the drop-in cylinders. They're historically correct and work great.

As for fitting the conversion cylinder (whichever type you get), most of the time they work fine out of the box, most of the rest of the time they need only minor fitting, and only rarely do you need to get it fitted by a gunsmith. Of course, this is with the usual warning to think carefully about what you're doing and work slowly if you do it yourself. Get help if you have any doubts about what you're doing.

There are several good books on the care and feeding of BP revolvers, look in the book rack at your local toy store or on line. David Chicoine is is my favorite author, I have Gunsmithing Guns of the Old West and Black Powder Hobby Gunsmithing, both excellent resources.

[hellgate]

Go to Captain Baylor's web site and check out Cap & Ball revolvers for dummies. Good basic stuff there. More tilted toward Ruger Old Armies.

[Advertising]

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I have a very old EuroArms 1858 Remmie, as well as a pretty new Stainless Uberti Remmie. I have R&D cylinders for both of them.

Anybody who does not think brass frames stretch is welcome to come see my old Navy Arms brass framed 44 Cal 'Navy' that I bought in 1968. It is now a wall hanger because too many heavy charges stretched the frame and the barrel now points up high enough that it shoots about 12" above point of aim at CAS distances. Unfortunately, back in 1968 nobody warned us against heavy loads in brass framed revolvers, so I kept loading it with 30 grain charges until I finally noticed I couldn't hit anything with it anymore.

With a 45 Colt cartridge and a 200 or 250 grain bullet in a conversion cylinder, the frame will be subjected to more pounding from recoil than a 148 grain or so 44 cal round ball can ever generate. If you want to shoot a conversion, spend the extra money on the steel frame.

If you are on a budget, you may want to rethink your strategy. Although the raw price of a C&B revolver is quite attractive, you have to spend over $200 each for the conversion cylinders, no matter which brand. With me, I bought my old EuroArms Remmie back around 1975, so dropping $200 on a conversion cylinder for it a few years ago did not hurt very much. Later on I came across the Stainless Uberti used at a gunshow at a very attractive price, including the conversion cylinder. Couldn't pass it up. But once you are done buying a C&B revolver brand new, and a brand new conversion cylinder for it, you have spent just about as much money as you will on most other cartridge revolvers made in Italy.

Don't get me wrong, Remmies with cartridge conversions are fun. But they ain't cheap.

I have no experience with Pietta, I cannot speak about them. I am continually dissapointed with Uberti quality, and the Stainless Remmie did not let me down. It shoots fine, but there are a couple of minor manufacturing defects in it that would not bother most, but bother me. The hammer never drops straight down into the hammer slot in the frame. It always grazes the side of the frame as it falls. When I gave it to my smith to see if he could do anything about it he told me the hole for the hammer pivot screw was cocked slightly, causing the hammer to fall slightly to one side. Rather than weld up and redrill the hole, he relieved one side of the hammer so that the interference was lessened, but not completely eliminated.

Conversion cylinders can never be truly 100% 'drop in'. There are always manufacturing tolerances involved in making the revolvers so that one is never completely identical to another. To partially overcome this, conversion cylinders have to actually be manufactured to tighter tollerances than the guns they fit into. That is one reason they are so expensive.

I have no experience with the Kirst product.

R&D makes 3 generic versions, one for Ubertis, one for Piettas, and one for the Ruger Old Army. R&D does a very good job of making their cylinders as truly drop in as possible.  Even so, every once in a while a Remmie will be encountered that needs a little bit of TLC to make a conversion cylinder drop in and function correctly. Case in point is my old EuroArms Remmie. Neither a standard Uberti or Pietta cylinder would fit it. I sent it off to Taylors to have them custom fit a cylinder to it. Taylors is the official distributor for R&D cylinders. I might add that custom fitting is a service that Taylors performs for free for R&D cylinders. They custom fit a 'pietta' cylinder to the old Remmie and it works fine.

The best books I know about for getting started shooting Black Powder in revolvers are either Shooting Colt Single Actions, or Shooting Sixguns of the Old West, both written by Mike Venturino. The Colt book was my own primer for getting started with BP cartridges, I already knew about C&B, except for not loading heavy charges.

http://www.ycsi.net/users/mlventurino/

[Dick Dastardly]

I have to differ with Driftwood on one, and only one, point.  The Kirst Konverter cylinder for the ROAs is truly a drop in product.  I have two, Silas McFee has one.  All are as good or better than the original Ruger cylinders for fit and function and all are better than the original Ruger cylinders for finish.  They are like jewelery.  The chambers are very smooth, the chamber mouths are the RIGHT size for the ROA barrels and they are even more accurate than the original Ruger cylinders are in the same guns.

We have shot lots of 45 Colt ammo with PRS 45-250 bullets over all the FFFg powder we can get under them and compress it with the bullets.  They shoot great with this ammo.  Now, I've also loaded up and shot a bunch of the new Adirondack Jack Colt 45 Special brass with 1.3cc of FFFg Holy Black under the EPP-UG bullets.  It hit the same place as the big warthog 45 Colt loads, but it didn't recoil near as much.  Here's the kicker.  No powder ring, no fouling problems, great function and accuracy.

So, there is a situation where the Kirst Konverter cylinders are a true drop in proposition and that is with the ROAs.  Of course, we're talkin' US manufacture here on all counts.

DD-DLoS

[Pettifogger]

You say you are on a budget.  Then you are far better off looking for some used cartridge guns.  The cost of the guns is only a small part of the cost of shooting BP, especially C&B BP, is far higher than shooting smokeless rounds.  By the time you buy replacement nipples, caps, cappers, nipple picks, flasks, lube, and all the other paraphenalia needed to shoot C&B your costs are going to be pretty high.

[Dodge City Slicker]

You say you are on a budget.  Then you are far better off looking for some used cartridge guns.  The cost of the guns is only a small part of the cost of shooting BP, especially C&B BP, is far higher than shooting smokeless rounds.  By the time you buy replacement nipples, caps, cappers, nipple picks, flasks, lube, and all the other paraphenalia needed to shoot C&B your costs are going to be pretty high.

Thanks for all the advice. I used to reload smokeless back in the 60's when I was paper punching, and been out of touch since then. I wouldn't want to do that again..been there, done that... but I find BP totally new in all aspects, and it has revived my old interest in shooting and reloading. Dressing up and playing at cowboys was fun when I was 10, and its still fun at 67 !!

[Pettifogger]

Thanks for all the advice. I used to reload smokeless back in the 60's when I was paper punching, and been out of touch since then. I wouldn't want to do that again..been there, done that... but I find BP totally new in all aspects, and it has revived my old interest in shooting and reloading. Dressing up and playing at cowboys was fun when I was 10, and its still fun at 67 !!

Then go for it!  I have been shooting C&B almost exclusively for the past two years.  Switched back to some cartridge guns (loaded with BP) for a couple of matches and it felt downright strange.  You can get C&B revolvers to a high degree of reliability and they can stand up well against cartridge guns.  In many matches I am the only C&B shooter so I shoot my C&Bs in Frontier Cartridge Duelist and usually still finish well overall.

[Noz]

I agree with Pettifogger. Buying Remingtons and then buying converters puts you in the price range of good used Vaqueros or Gauchos.
I wouldn't do it.
A whole lot easier to make a "modern" gun run well.

[Dodge City Slicker]

I agree with Pettifogger. Buying Remingtons and then buying converters puts you in the price range of good used Vaqueros or Gauchos.
I wouldn't do it.
A whole lot easier to make a "modern" gun run well.

...but I like the look of the old C&B revolvers !... and since I will be shooting a Marlin Coyboy in .45 LC using BP cartridges, I will be able to use those in the Remmy as well...best of both worlds.

[Frenchie]

Anybody who does not think brass frames stretch is welcome to come see my old Navy Arms brass framed 44 Cal 'Navy' that I bought in 1968. It is now a wall hanger because too many heavy charges stretched the frame and the barrel now points up high enough that it shoots about 12" above point of aim at CAS distances.

I said, "Everyone who makes cartridge converter cylinders say they must not be used in a brass-framed revolver. I personally think this is overkill, but all in all, you'll be happier with steel frames." How that can be interpreted as, "Brass frames don't stretch," is something that I would need to have explained to me.

[Brian Why]

If you wanna go right out the door with '58 conversions, look into the remmies at Taylors. You'll get exactly what you want for the same price as a new '58 and conversion cylinder without the added expense of having to pay a gunsmith to fit the cylinder for you.

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/products/cfRemingtonConversion.tpl

[Driftwood Johnson]

If you wanna go right out the door with '58 conversions, look into the remmies at Taylors. You'll get exactly what you want for the same price as a new '58 and conversion cylinder without the added expense of having to pay a gunsmith to fit the cylinder for you.

If you buy an R&D cylinder, and if it needs fitting, Taylors will do it for free. You pay to send them the gun and to buy the cylinder, they fit it for you and send it back for free.

The one other thing you should know about the Remmie 1858 design is it tends to bind up quickly from BP fouling. That is because there is no raised bushing on the front of the cylinder to keep fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap from being deposited on the cylinder base pin. As fouling gets blasted onto the pin it tends to bind the cylinder. You can cut some grooves in the cylinder base pin to hold some extra lube, but personally I have not found that to help very much. When I shoot my Remmies with their R&D cylinders I have to wipe off the cylinder pin and the front face of the cylinder after every cylinder full, or they will bind up. It isn't much of a problem, since I have to remove the cylinder to empty it and reload it anyway. But I do need to wipe it down after every stage, even shooting Big Lube bullets.

My Colts or Rugers on the other hand can go all day long without any cleaning, because of the raised cylinder bushing that deflects fouling away from the cylinder pin.

[Judge Jake McCord]

     Howdy, Pards! I'm just getting into this old discussion: pardon me if this question has been answered already, or if the answer is common knowledge, but here's my question:

     When we're speaking of BP revolvers with drop in cartridge cylinders like Kirst or R&D, ARE these safe combinations for low-pressure (target, CAS, NOT hunting loads) modern SMOKELESS cartridges? Or are they safe only for blackpowder cartridges?

Jake

[Cuts Crooked]

     
     When we're speaking of BP revolvers with drop in cartridge cylinders like Kirst or R&D, ARE these safe combinations for low-pressure (target, CAS, NOT hunting loads) modern SMOKELESS cartridges? Or are they safe only for blackpowder cartridges?

Jake

Jake,

Discussion of smokeless is not really permitted here. However I will answewer yer question on this. Cas level loads are perfectly safe in all of the drop in cylinders I know of, but they are NOT built fer high pressure stuff. Even if the cylinders would stand up to higher pressures, the gun itself would be questionable in it's ability to stand up to it.

[Judge Jake McCord]

Thanks, Cuts.

Jake

[Steel Horse Bailey]

...but I like the look of the old C&B revolvers !... and since I will be shooting a Marlin Coyboy in .45 LC using BP cartridges, I will be able to use those in the Remmy as well...best of both worlds.

I understand... basically.

But do you realize that you CAN buy a fine cartridge-ready Remington gun - that looks an awful LOT like the NMA - called the 1875?

BP aint cheap.  BP cartridge IS a bit cheaper and easier TO ME than my C&Bs.  And not 1/10th the "challenge."  I say that having just shot the NCOWS 2008 National shoot with a Colt 1st Model Dragoon, and an Uberti 1860 Army C&B!  As much as I LOVE shooting them, I sure can see why cartridges caught on so fast! 

And that gets me back to buying a C&B pistol, then converting it to cartridge.  When you can buy one MADE that way from the start ...

Yer mileage may vary.

Here's a photo of both types of Remingtons ... since you seem to have to good taste to like them, too!

[Ransom Gaer]

Something not mentioned, but maybe needs to be, is that at least with the R&D cylinders they have very tight chambers.  If the diameter of your .45 Colt cartridges are smidge large they will have trouble fitting in the chambers.  On the bright side, if your cartridges fit in the R&D cylinders they will work in anything else.  I use one of my cylinders as a check gauge for my .45 Colt cartridges.

I have a pair of New Model Army Remingtons with the R&D conversion cylinders.  They are very nice revolvers with the cylinders.  Tack drivers.  Also the issue with fouling around the cylinder pin varies from gun to gun.  One of mine I have relatively little trouble, but the other can be a real pain at times.  On both of mine I had to do a little smithing on them to get the cylinders to fit.  Mine are Ubertis for discussion sake.

Ransom Gaer

[Steel Horse Bailey]

I think I'd better clarify myself.  I have NOTHING against converting a C&B pistol to cartridge.  Heck ... I'm into authenticity and TONS of 'em were converted back then.  You can't get much more authentic than that!

MY thinking is toward someone who never shoots their C&B gun again.  If ya shoot it some with the cartridges, then every once in a while, throw in the old C&B cylinder, well - that's just dandy!  I guess I just feel that with all the RM Conversions and other such conversion or conversion-styled guns being produced at the factory - and which really don't cost much different than buying a good Uberti or Pietta, then spending another gun's worth of cash for a conversion cylinder - which then MAY or may NOT work without the help of a gunsmith - well, I just don't get it.  Now I DO realize that there are a lesser amount of "converted" (styled) Remingtons out there, and NONE if you're looking for some of the other C&B guns, well, that's different.

But ... I'll shut up, now - 'cause some simply like the way they LOOK.   And there's NO way I'd want to discourage THAT !!   

[Pony Racer]

On budget - SHB I get you.  But not on a budget....

Why ask why?

Buy and shoot what you like.

I have a pair of 1851 Navies that have been completely convreted to cartridge with 38 spl barrel sleeves, loading gate and groove but I left the rammers on the bottom - people have said hey since you converted all the way - take those thingees off and buy the ejector rods to finish out the conversions.

I say no thanks - I like 'em just they way they are.  To be honest I think the loading lever thingee is what makes the 51's and 60's point so well.

I was lucky enough to have a friend who did the conversions for me  - won't get into financial arrangements - but lets just say - I bought the navies, the conversion kits, barrel liners and got them put together and competition action jobbed for less than two new RM's with action jobs.

The only things I did not buy for my conversions - the dovetail front site and the ejector rod and assembly.

PR