Author Topic: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?  (Read 12145 times)

Offline el chango pistolero

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hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« on: June 03, 2007, 05:10:04 PM »
Howdy.     I'm a longtime Blackhawk (.357) and SuperBlackhawk shooter, I usually shoot fairly hot loads, and the guns hold up just fine.    But these are Rugers.
    I've now got a beautiful Cimarron/Uberti Model P, gorgeous gun, I am totally in love with the SAA.    But I know that the SAAs can't hold up to the same abuse as a Blackhawk.    Well,  you folk know the SAA much better than I do; what, in your opinion, can I shoot in my Model P, without doing damage to the gun?    My Mod.P is in .357, and I've been firing it with 125gr bullets doing 1,150 fps, for about 370 ft-lb at the muzzle.    Can I up the speed, say to 1,450 fps, without causing premature wear to the gun?     > 1,450?     And how about bigger bullets, 158-grainers?    How fast can I make the 158s go before the grief begins?
    I love this gun, I want it to last forever, I want to get more (Next up will be a Thunderer in .357 with 3.5" bbl and fleur-de-lys "ivory" grips from Buffalo Bros.).   I don't want to damage these guns.    But I would like to go for all the power I can safely get.    Any suggestions?    The hot loads are not for use in CAS, btw.    I'm new to CAS, don't know much yet, but I do know that light .38spec loads are more commonly used.     I just want the hot stuff for banging away at the range.
    Thanks for your time.
       Best,
         Glenn
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Offline Camille Eonich

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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #1 on: June 03, 2007, 05:37:46 PM »
Load to specs and you shouldn't have to worry about it.
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Offline el chango pistolero

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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #2 on: June 03, 2007, 06:17:49 PM »
Thank you, Camille, but what exactly are the "specs"?    At this point, I'm still buying manufactured ammunition, haven't gotten around to reloading yet (but probably will, this coming winter).    Are you referring to the SAAMI specs?    I'm not quite sure what those are, it's just something I see referred to in the gun magazines, but are there stated maximum loads, SAAMI or whatever, which all guns in that caliber should be able to handle, SAA included?     If so, could you tell me where I could find those specs for .357?

Many thanks.

Glenn
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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #3 on: Today at 03:01:27 AM »

Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #3 on: June 03, 2007, 09:43:17 PM »
Here's a list of SAAMI specs. http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm
The factory ammo should be fine in it if it is 35,000 PSI or below. If and/or when you reload always use the published data from the powder manufacturer that is not over that max pressure.

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Offline el chango pistolero

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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2007, 10:59:58 PM »
Thanks a lot, Slim.    I think this is going to be more complicated than I had expected.

The ballistic info I find on loaded ammunition always includes bullet weight and velocity at the muzzle; what I cannot find is the pressure, and that seems to be the key to determining if a load is reasonable for the SAA, i.e., ensuring that the pressure is <35,000 psi.   So I just now checked a Lee reloading manual, and the table for 357 magnum does show pressure, but not in a way that I can understand.    With a 125 gr jacketed bullet, 17.6 gr of Hercules 2400 will produce 1,810 fps and pressure of 31,800 psi; with the identical bullet, 9.6 grains of Unique will produce a lower velocity of 1,585 fps with a higher pressure of 33,800.    So, if I understand this correctly (which is unlikely), I cannot determine pressure if the only information I have is bullet weight and muzzle velocity.

So, since pressure is the key to determining the limit of what my Mod.P can handle:    how can I determine pressure of a given load?

Can I assume that all available factory loads (from major manufacturers, like Federal, Winchester, Magtech) are within SAAMI pressure limits?     If it's more complicated than that, it looks like I'm in over my head.

Apologies for the length and complexity of this reply, and thanks.

Glenn
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Offline boot strap jack

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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2007, 11:53:14 PM »
Hello HG,  when reloading never go above suggested max load, and work up to that slowly. As to factory rounds you are safe, they are going to be loaded below max pressure for liability reasons.

Offline Trailrider

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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2007, 01:07:13 AM »
Thanks a lot, Slim.    I think this is going to be more complicated than I had expected.

The ballistic info I find on loaded ammunition always includes bullet weight and velocity at the muzzle; what I cannot find is the pressure, and that seems to be the key to determining if a load is reasonable for the SAA, i.e., ensuring that the pressure is <35,000 psi.   So I just now checked a Lee reloading manual, and the table for 357 magnum does show pressure, but not in a way that I can understand.    With a 125 gr jacketed bullet, 17.6 gr of Hercules 2400 will produce 1,810 fps and pressure of 31,800 psi; with the identical bullet, 9.6 grains of Unique will produce a lower velocity of 1,585 fps with a higher pressure of 33,800.    So, if I understand this correctly (which is unlikely), I cannot determine pressure if the only information I have is bullet weight and muzzle velocity.

So, since pressure is the key to determining the limit of what my Mod.P can handle:    how can I determine pressure of a given load?

Can I assume that all available factory loads (from major manufacturers, like Federal, Winchester, Magtech) are within SAAMI pressure limits?     If it's more complicated than that, it looks like I'm in over my head.

Apologies for the length and complexity of this reply, and thanks.

Glenn

Howdy, Pard,

Yes, you can assume that factory loads by major manufacturers are loaded within the SAAMI specs for "maximum average pressures".  The liability incurred by exceeding those standards would be too great for any manufacturer to bear!

You are correct that you cannot determine pressure based solely on muzzle velocity and bullet weight. The reason is that smokeless powders have different burning rates, and even a single powder will act differently under different conditions.  A powder that reaches its peak pressure more quickly than another, may result in a given bullet leaving the muzzle of the barrel at a lower velocity than a slower-burning powder.  A slower powder may not reach its maximum pressure before the bullet leaves the barrel.

In point of fact, even the publishers of the loading manuals cannot tell you for certain what a given load will do in any given gun!  There are too many variables, for example, the chamber dimensions, revolver throat diameters, brass, bullet seating depth, and a bunch more.  What the published data tells you is that that load was tested in a pressure barrel or an actual gun, using the specific components listed, and produced the results shown.  Take the exact same ammo, put it in a different gun and the results may change dramatically.  What the ammo/powder makers do is to determine a load that, taking into account a margin of safety for typical MODERN-MADE guns, will produce reliable, relatively safe pressures in most guns.  But, change the primer or the brand of brass, and you may have a brand-new ballgame.

You could attempt to measure pressures by purchasing an Oehler M43 Personal Ballistics Laboratory, which uses a strain gage that must be cemented to a chamber of the cylinder.  That would show you the pressure-vs-time curve and muzzle velocity. But I can tell you from first-hand experience, there is almost too little clearance between the cylinder and the underside of the topstrap of a Ruger Blackhawk/Vaquero, and I doubt if you could get the gage in the space available in a Colt's.  And it would only prove what is happening in that chamber!  Plus, you don't know what the particular manufacturer is warranteeing the gun for.

My strong suggestion to you is to read a number of the reloading manuals, including the Lyman 48th Edition, Speer Handbook, Hornady Handbook and the Hodgdon reloading guide, and STAY WITHIN THE RECOMMENDED LIMITS shown in those guides.  You WILL find differences in the data from book to book!  That is because the test equipment may vary from laboratory to laboratory.  When in doubt, take the most conservative approach!  You will have...a more harmoneous outcome!



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Offline el chango pistolero

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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2007, 02:49:51 AM »
Trailrider, THANKS!    I really appreciate your having taken the time to explain all that so well and in so much detail.     I'm saving your response, and I'm sure I'll be looking at it a number of times in the future.

Since all major-manufacturer loaded ammunition should be within SAAMI pressure limits, I know all I need to know for what I'm doing now, which is shooting factory loads in my Cimarron SAAs.    I'll just assume that anything Winchester or Federal sells in .357, .45ACP, and .45 Colt will be safe in those guns, and won't damage them.     I clearly have a lot to learn before I start reloading, and I'll follow your advice by beginning with a lot of reading.     Since I already have the Lee manual, I'll start with that, unless you recommend against it.     I don't at all mind the studying, and I look forward to learning to reload.     I won't have time till next winter, but for now, I'm fine with the factory loads.

Again, thanks for your great answer.

Glenn
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Offline Silver Creek Slim

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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2007, 08:58:27 AM »
I started loading with a Lee Loading manual and having blown up a gun yet.  ;)

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Offline Driftwood Johnson

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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2007, 10:06:46 AM »
Howdy

Trailrider has given you some excellent information (as he always does.)

Just for the fun of it, pick up a reloading manual and start reading through it. Of course read the sections about how to actually reload. But start browsing through some of the powder recipes and you will begin to see how certain powders require less powder to reach a particular pressure level than others. This is an excellent way to start getting an idea of what powders you want to start out with. As a rule of thumb, it is probably better for the beginner to start with powders that require more powder to reach a given pressure rather than less powder. Many reloaders do not like to think this way, they only think of the economy of using less powder. However if you choose a powder that requires more volume to achieve a certain pressure, you will achieve more reliability on the low end, as there will be less empty space in the cartridge, AND there is more forgiving margin of error with large loads than small loads.

The Lee book is excellent. Lots, and lots of information. His recommended max loads tend to be a bit conservative too. Good for the beginner.
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Offline Trailrider

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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2007, 11:07:43 AM »
Trailrider, THANKS!    I really appreciate your having taken the time to explain all that so well and in so much detail.     I'm saving your response, and I'm sure I'll be looking at it a number of times in the future.

Since all major-manufacturer loaded ammunition should be within SAAMI pressure limits, I know all I need to know for what I'm doing now, which is shooting factory loads in my Cimarron SAAs.    I'll just assume that anything Winchester or Federal sells in .357, .45ACP, and .45 Colt will be safe in those guns, and won't damage them.     I clearly have a lot to learn before I start reloading, and I'll follow your advice by beginning with a lot of reading.     Since I already have the Lee manual, I'll start with that, unless you recommend against it.     I don't at all mind the studying, and I look forward to learning to reload.     I won't have time till next winter, but for now, I'm fine with the factory loads.

Again, thanks for your great answer.

Glenn

Howdy, again, Pard,

One CAUTION about factory loads.  I would AVOID FACTORY "+P" loads in Cimarron or other Colt's replica guns, even though they are factory loads.  "+P" means just that, they are HIGHER PRESSURE loads, and intended for use only in stronger guns!  Such loads will be labelled as such.  There should be no need to utilize +P loads in any Colt's-type guns, even if you intend to use them for hunting.  IMHO, although some folks do pack them in the woods, even a .357 Magnum is a bit underpowered if you are hunting in grizzly bear country, even with a gun and ammo in the +P range.  If you are planning to go where you may run into BIG bear, pack at least a .44 Magnum!  A .45 Long Colt gun with 250 gr bullets at 850 ft/sec will be quite adequate for black bear or wild boar, IF shot placement is good, and you are using bullets that get PENETRATION, rather than expansion (probably Jacketed Soft Point bullets).
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Offline el chango pistolero

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Re: hot loads in Cimarron Mod.P: how hot can I go?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2007, 01:29:04 PM »
Well, Slim (again), Trailrider (again) and Driftwood, thanks and thanks.     Those are just the answers I needed.    I'll start with the Lee manual, start getting a sense of what reloading is all about, and just go from there.     And until I think I understand it well enough to begin actually reloading, I'll stick with the factory loads.    Trailrider, I was going to ask you about +P loads, but the only +P loads I find in .357 are from smaller companies (Miwall, mainly), and I figured it's probably best to avoid using those.      I love my Model P too much to want to risk damaging it.   

I much appreciate all the help.     Take care, folks.

Glenn
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