Taming 45/70 recoil

[Triggersmith]

I build a Gemmer style 45/70 trapdoor Hawken that has the narrow Hawken butt plate.  This rifle has got a pretty good kick and after  a couple of shots my shoulder is hurting. I've been using a 405, black powder cartridge.  I stand 5 ft. 9 in. and weigh 180 lbs. Any suggestions for some good shoulder protection.  there seems to be a difference of opinion of whether a recoil pad on the gun butt is better than a padded shoulder shield.  Any comments?
If this belongs elsewhere, feel free to move it.
Thanks
Triggersmith

[Delmonico]

I would use a PAST pad under my clothes, reason, that is to nice a gun to ruin the looks with a pad.

[Triggersmith]

That seems to be the general thougth around here too.  I ordered a PAST Mag Plus pad.  I'll let you know how it does. 
Thanks for the reply Delmonico
Triggersmith

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[Delmonico]

If you don't need to stretch the range that far go even lighter on the bullet and use on of the 300 like the 45-90 did as loaded by Winchester. (Not exactly the same as the Sharps 45-2.4)  Also use a Remington case.  I use the 330 Lyman hollow point as a hunting bullet and recoil is a lot better even with 75 grs. of Goex CTG than the RCBS-500-SIL bullet I use with I believe 62 or so grains.  It works fine out to 300 or so.  BTW that 330 HP dates to the 1880 and the old Ideal Company.

[Triggersmith]

I don't load my own stuff yet.  I used to but sold all my equipment a lont time ago.  I was just made aware that the deep crescent of the Hawken buttplate should be out further on the the shoulder than a flatter plate.  With the pad and that change it might just be a bit better.  If it don't I'll sell it and get a slingshot.  (blackpowder of course)
Thanks again.  I'm obliged.
triggersmith

[El Peludo]

I think, hope, perhaps, you'll find the PAST recoil absorber to do pertty well.  It depends a lot on how you're shooting.  If you are shooting off a bench, you're going to get thumped a lot harder than if you shoot offhand, because of the relative position differences.  I used to get beat up pretty good doing a lot of benchrest high power shooting, until I started using a PAST; shooting the same rifles offhand never bothered me, although the pad did soften the narrow metal butts of a few of my antiques.  Everybody is different, and what works for one, may not be the ticket for another.

[RattlesnakeJack]

Having shot muzzleloaders for years before straying into CAS, I can confirm that the American/German crescent buttplate shape requires a different stance, and placement of the butt, than the flat "shotgun-style" buttplate traditional on English rifles ... especially if the crescent is quite pronounced, with sharp points!   

In fact, I have seen old-time references to differing "national" shooting stances or styles ... clearly attributable to the differing butt styles common in the respective countries.  "English Stance" was clearly described to be what is most common today - i.e. with the butt planted squarely on the shoulder, at or below the collarbone.  "American Stance", on the other hand, had the butt placed just off the shoulder, against the upper bicep (with the upper half of that arm at, or very near, horizontal) permitting the crescent butt to cup the upper arm, with the lower point tucked into the armpit.

You will see many Black Powder shooters ... especially if they shoot a rifle with a pronounced crescent butt ... using this stance - often this type of butt placement will be combined with another rather odd-looking thing: i.e. the arm supporting the fore-end is not positioned under the rifle as a "prop", but rather is also extended at or near the horizontal (in some extreme cases I have seen the elbow(s) above the shoulder).  In this stance, the rifle is essentially "slung in a cradle" rather than being propped up ....

While I could never master that extreme stance, I certainly learned that placement of a crescent butt on/around the upper arm was vastly more comfortable (and stable) ...

[Dick Dastardly]

I get some fine use out of the PRS Big Lube™ bullets in my 45-70 roller.  They make great plinkers with very lite recoil.  Accuracy is fine out to 150 yards.

DD-DLoS

[Triggersmith]

Thank you all for your tips. I think using the PAST recoil pad and adjusting my stance will help a bunch.  I'll let you know.
Much obliged
Triggersmith

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

All my CAS main match rifles have old fashioned crescent shaped butt plates. An original Winchester '92 chambered in 44-40 as well as a Marlin Model 1894 chambered in 44-40. Both of these guns were built before 1900. I also shoot an Uberti 1873, and an Uberti Henry in CAS, also chambered in 44-40.

Because of the deep crescent buttplates, I have adopted a more 19th Century style of shooting my rifles than most shooters use today. I hike the buttplate a little bit farther outboard, so that the 'points' of the crescent encircle the shoulder joint. This helps stabilize the rifle vertically and it tends not to slip, because the crescent keeps it in place. I never place the points of the crescent against the 'meaty' part of the shoulder. This stance usually requires I shift my feet a bit differently than most riflemen. I do not stand face on to the target, instead I stand at about a 45 degree angle to the target. This brings the rifle more 'across' my chest and allows me to comfortabley stay on target. The third change from many modern riflemen is I raise my right elbow (I'm a righty) higher than some, in order to bring the gun up to my face, rather than hunching over to bring my face down to the gun.

I have been told by fast shooters that this posture is not conducive to fast shooting, but if I cared about that I would not be shooting a Henry with Black Powder.

When I bought my 45-70 Sharps, I was careful to buy a model with a modern 'shotgun' style buttplate because I did not want to be dealing with a crescent shaped butt plate and 45-70 caliber.

If you try shooting like I have just described, you may find that a recoil pad on your shoulder is useless, because the 'outboard' position that I have just described may tend to bring the butt plate out past where any 'strap on' type of butt pad, like the Past, will sit anyway.

You can try this in the comfort of your own basement if you like, just to see if you like mounting the rifle this way.

[Triggersmith]

Thanks for the reply, but I can't see how you can fit that buttplate into the crook of your elbow.  How do you reach the trigger?
Enlighten me!!!
Triggersmith

[Driftwood Johnson]

OOOPS!

Stupid Typo. That's what I get for not proofreading my work. Hike the stock a little bit outboard from your shoulder joint. is what I meant to say. Mount it normally, on the meaty part of the shoulder. Now shift it just a bit outboard, off the meaty part and so that the points encircle the the shoulder joint. That's what I meant to say.

Shooting light recoiling rifles like 44-40 this way is very comfortable. I can't say for something like a 45-70, because as I said, when I bought my Sharps, I was careful to get one with a 'shotgun' style buttplate. I do most of my Sharps shooting either from a bench, or from cross sticks, and it is uncomfortable to shoot from the bench with my elbow up in the air. When I bench test my 44-40 rifles I usually place the stock on the meaty part of the shoulder. It is just more comfortable to shoot this way off a bench, and the recoil is light enough with 44-40 that it doesn't hurt. 45-70 is a different story, and I knew that my '44-40' style would not be practical from a bench.

But try it and see if it is comfortable for you. My comments about a recoil pad strapped to your shoulder stand. If you place the gunbutt as I have described, you may find that you have positioned slightly too far outboard to be on a recoil pad anyway.

[Triggersmith]

I figured that's what you meant.  I may just be changing barrels in this ole shooter.  Been looking at 38-55.  What do you think?
Triggersmith

[SGT John Chapman]

Growing up I shot a lot of Trap,.....we used Mercury and Hydraulic recoil reducers in the butt stocks of our shotguns to reduce the repetitive poundings,.....I'm not sure what you have under the but plate on that rifle but it might be worth a thought ,....Brownells carries them.

[mcgiiver]

That seems to be the general thougth around here too.  I ordered a PAST Mag Plus pad.  I'll let you know how it does. 
Thanks for the reply Delmonico
Triggersmith

I love my magnum Plus pad, but don't store it in the cold just before shooting or it gets hard and takes a long time to warm up and provide cushioning. Its pretty thick so I use my thinner Past pad for lighter recoiling guns.

[Pappy Myles]

I shoot an H&R buff classic in 45/70.  The rifle is pretty light and usually beats me up like the 1st wife.  I put about a pound of lead in the stock.  It did heavy up the rifle, balanced it out, and did reduce the recoil to tollerable limits

[Triggersmith]

That was my alternative if the pad didn't work.  It works just fine.  I hardly notice the recoil.  thanks for all the replies gents.  Always nice to hear what everyone else is doing.
Triggersmith