Some interesting developments for darksiders and those wanting to be.

[Adirondack Jack]

It looks like very soon folks will be able to buy loaded "BP" (sub) Cowboy .45 Special ammo in stores around the country.  Ten-X has shown interest in loading the round for distribution through their 47 dealers.  The projected load is not cast in stone yet, but at this point closely mirrors my own Triple Seven loads.  They chatted with their dealers at the SHOT Show, and got lots of interest.  I'm thinkin' there will be some new darksiders coming out of this, especially those not currently reloading who are looking for a soft shooting .45 FC load.

Meanwhile, back at the lab, it has been brought to our attention that we are behind the times.

It seems our little "custom case", made at higher cost than the mass-produced rounds made on dedicated lines, is now actually LESS EXPENSIVE than some major houses are getting for .45 Colt.

Wow!!!! brass has gone up!!!!!  We're gonna hold the line at 2006 prices as long as current stocks hold out, but for now anyway, Cowboy .45 Special is a bargain (and here I've been apologizing for the "high" price.  I guess I am "so last tuesday" as my 12 year old would say.

Might be the Cowboy .45 Special gets more appealing as POWDER is also going through the durn roof!!!  Holy smokes it is high.  Wished I woulda bought more last year, (but alas, I tied up my money in brass).  Good thing I'm only using half the powderI  used to with .45 Colt (and I get my brass at cost, being as I am real close to the distributor    )

On the shooting front, I've done NONE since a couple of weeks ago, but I am told some of the dedicated Cowboy .45 Special shooters are refining loads and getting very familiar with their newly modified Marlins.  One or two expect to have new belt buckles using the new rounds in the near future.

That would please me almost as much as getting one meownself. (yeah, like that is gonna happen?  Well, maybe if they keep adding categories, mebbe I'll get a "half blind arthritic 50-ish FC" caregory added)

Fun stuff.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

Don't wanna get too political, but does anyone know WHY  the prices of powder, caps/primers, etc. are rising so much?   I know that GOEX suffered another explosion, but around here, the price of BP raised $4 - $6/lb. almost overnight.  Shoot, around here the subs have NEVER been priced fairly, IMHO.  ($25 a can was the normal going rate for 777 or APP, and that's not even a FULL pound!)  Yes, I know about buying in bulk, but financially, that's NOT an option for many of us.  Are the antis getting the taxes or insurance rates raised in an attempt to PRICE us freedom-lovers out of the shooting business?  The fuel prices are finally dropping from their (probably artificially created) highs, so what is the cause?

I'm sure there are many reasons - so many that no one will ever really know.



Adirondak Jack, while I personally will probably never try your 45 Cowboy Special, at least not many,    I heartily applaud and thank you for your work. 

[Arcey]

The folks at the shop tell us it's because of Iraq, ole Hoss.

Startin' year three in Frontier Cartridge 'n I ain't been loadin' smokeless much until I bought the l'il self shucker I'm carryin' now.  Wanted to be thoroughly familiar with its different configuration so I've been shootin' it a bunch.  Ran outtah the TiteGroup I had left 'n got a taste of reality when I priced the stuff last Wednesday.

Got almost a full pound of Unique I didn't wanna use in the Glock but I'm thinkin' I'll find a load for it.

VB decided to order more targets.  The prices went up substantially for steel too.  Vendor also told him it was because of the war..........

[Adirondack Jack]

While gasoline is easing some, diesel is HIGH, and in part that is due to the reformulation to low sulpher fuel, and in part it is just plain high.  Therefore shipping is high.  Insurance is always a factor.  I don't know about material costs.  Other than the hazmat fees, which have been with us forever it seems, I don't know that the antis have a thing to do with it.

[Adirondack Jack]

I Am going to do what I did last time out.  I'm going to invest in 10 lbs of 777 (which is a full pound, BTW, and is used in weights far less than BP, so the cost per dose ends up about the same), and while I am at it, dive in for an 8lb. keg of 700X, which ends up less than HALF the price per ounce of the 8 ounce cans on the store shelf.  I figure the return VS buying it a little at a time will be better than leaving the $$$ in the bank.

[Arcey]

All true, Jack.  Just sayin' whut we've been told by the vendors.

[Steel Horse Bailey]

AJ, I stand (or sit  ) corrected!  "which is a full pound, BTW"

Arcey, yeah ... the War.  Right.  They use lots of 3F in all those 5.56 mm rounds that the Army uses, and in its infinite wisdom, teaches the soldiers accuracy & marksmanship for; er ... "spray & pray" method ... well ..... (Notice I DIDN'T say Marines)  Perhaps the Army has changed its training because of the war ... but I wouldn't bet $$$ on it.)

Yeah, right.  And when the War is done it'll get blamed on "Homeland Security."

In fairness, BP IS  used as the priming compound in Tank ammo (I'm sure of) and perhaps  Artillery rounds.  (I'm not totally sure 'bout the Arty charges but nearly sure)

[Dick Dastardly]

Ho the fire,

Yup, Jack's brass saves lots of stuff, including money.  The way I load 45 Long Colt brass and Cowboy 45 Special brass I save 1.07 pounds of Holy Black per 500 rounds.  Now, 500 rounds don't last me real long cuz both Silas and myself are reachin' into my ammo bin for SASS ammo a couple a times a month.  So, if I load 'em 500 pieces Ten times a season (a very low estimate) I save 10.7 pounds of Holy Black.  You do the math.

Figuring the new price of the brass in, I'm saving enough for another 500 pieces of brass in one season.  Heck, I can't afford not to shoot AJs brass.

Now, if I shoot 'em lil EPP-UG 150 grain boolits, I'm also savin' over Seventy pounds of lead per season compared to 45 LC loaded with the mighty PRS boolit.  Add that to the savings in powder and we're startin' to see enough savings to buy gas to a few more matches.

Economy is on the side of this new ammo.  I'm goin' to be orderin' some more of AJs brass.

DD-DLoS

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Artillery shells often used Black Powder as an intermediary between the primer and the main propellant charge. This is because the Black Powder was easier to ignite than the large rod shaped Smokeless grains. The correct term may be 'initiator' but I'm not sure of that.

In complete artillery rounds, the primer often had a perforated tube filled with Black Powder mounted over the primer. The primer would ignite the Black Powder, then the Black Powder would ignite the main Smokeless propellent charge through the perforations in the tube.

Large naval guns that used bagged powder charges had a large pad of Black Powder sewn onto the last powder bag. After the shell was rammed into place, different numbers of silk powder bags were rammed into the breech. The number of bags could vary. The last bag had the pad of Black Powder on the back. The primer, which resembled a 38 Special blank, ignited the BP, which ingnited the Smokeless propellant. By the way, the insides of large gun turrets had special floors made of aluminum and the crew were required to where special anti-sparking shoes with copper nails, to avoid accidentally igniting the BP charges.

I don't think any large Naval guns are currently being used, but I have no doubt that BP is still used in many artillery rounds.

As to why the price of metals like brass and lead are going up, the markets are changing. China is now consuming huge amounts of raw materials. You can't fight the law of supply and demand, it is thousands of years old. I don't think we can blame the antis for this.

[Adirondack Jack]

Just for some perspective.

I just got off the phone after ordering powder and primers.

I bought 10 lbs of 777 which will do 5300 rounds.  sooo, figuring $200 for the case with hazmat and shipping, 777 costs me $1.88 per box of fifty rounds.  ( $3.36 a box if loading .45 Colt)

My local GS is getting $110 out the door for the primers, or $1.10 a box of fifty rounds.



I cast my own bullets, counting the time as liesure time (I'd be wasting it anyway), so the cost for bullets is negligible.

So for 777 loads in Cowboy .45 Special it is gonna cost me $2.98 a box for primers and powder, plus the amortized cost of brass, if we figure that at a conservative ten reloads, of .86, so still well shy of $4 a box. (or about $5.50 for .45 colt)

For smokeless, (I just ordered a 4 lb jug of 700X) I can reduce that cost to $1.57 a box, plus brass costs (lets say smokeless brass will easily load 20 times) and I'm at right around  $2 a box.

Just perspective fellers.  It ain't THAT MUCH money compared to things like the durn $1.89 a cup coffee folks think nothing of grabbing every time they visit a stop-N-rob.

[Cuts Crooked]

I'm a dedicated Warthog!!!!!!!!!

Nevertheless, I still applaud AJ and DD for the great service they both do in behalf of Cowbot Shooters! The .45 Special brass and the El Paso Pete bullet are both a big savings for shooters and a boon to those who need/want lighter loads for the .45s!

I cain't say it too often, Thanx for what you do Pards!

[Arcey]

Howdy, Cuts.  Ole buddy.

Them 150s out of the short cases.  What category would ya put 'em in under the Major/Minor concept ya like fer scorin'?

[Adirondack Jack]

Arcey,  Trick question:

What category would a 200 in Long Colt be in?

(Hint, the 150 in the short case MIGHT make the same PF)

[Cuts Crooked]

Arcey, yer stirrin the pot again.

The .45 Special can be loaded down to minor levels or up to major. Just depends on what the pard wants to shoot.

[Arcey]

Aw, c'mon now, Cuts.  I wouldn't do that. I'm just tryin' ta learn.  Find out where the line is between Major 'n Minor 'n where that particular combination would fall.

I like learnin' 'n I hope Jack posts an image of one of those 'Long Colt' cartridges he was talkin' about.  I've never seen one.

I was just curious how they'd be classified under your Major/Minor proposal was all.  Heck, I'd love shootin' with my pard Jack straight up.  His stuff versus mine in Frontier Cartridge.   I think we'd have a good time.  Maybe you could come along.

[Dick Dastardly]

Pards, Gentlemen,  I'd have to say that I could load my ROA C&B cylinders with Warthog, or whimp loads with the same bullet.  I use the Cylinder Loading Stand on my web site.  With it I can seat my chosen bullet tight on the powder whatever the charge is.  So, I've taken the lil EPP-UG 150 grain bullet and set it on a mere 15 grains of FFg.  It runs just over 500 fps that way.  I've loaded the next chamber with 33 grains of FFFg under the same bullet and it's running over 900 fps.  That's a huge energy difference because the energy goes up exponentially as the velocity goes up.

So, I can take the same ROA and shoot with the Warthogs or the whimps.  FWIW, I usually shoot with the Warthogs, cuz I kin.

Same goes for the same bullet in cartridges.  It loads way down in the C45S brass and up to 850fps with 1.3cc of FFFg.  For the whimp loads, I prefer heathen fad smokeyless stuff cuz I don't like fillers.  I can take the same bullet and really push it over SASS maximum velocity with a compressed load of FFFg in 45 Colt brass.  Same gun, same bullet, widely different energy.

Each shooter makes the choice of what he or she wants to shoot.

DD-DLoS

P.S.  I welcome the opportunity to shoot with any of all of ya.

[Arcey]

Aw crap, Dick.  I didn't mean ta leave ya out of the posse, sorry.  I'd really enjoy the chance ta meet 'n shoot with ya.

[Sir Charles deMouton-Black]

Isn't CAS a kinda "hit-or-miss" business?  So now we go back to the days of our youth in IPSC when we had to use cardboard badguys, and had to score & tape each target?

For the Powder of Brothers Bacon & Berthold that KLANG is the best target feedback available.

[Wildcat Will]

Interesting thread.  Cuts I am with you,  warthog loads until I cannot hang on any longer.  I know I complain a bit about the cost but downloading is just not an option for me. 

Now I do appreciate the cyphering going on and it is interesting.  However, I guess if I find myself in the straights for money to shoot I will just stop eating disert (cookies, cake and all) and that should get me another can or two.  If need be I will hang out at the range and dig up the lead near the targets. 

My point being there are always ways of finding money to pay for what you really enjoy doing.  For me that is making lots of smoke and fire with pards like ya'll.

[Silas McFee]

Yep, 'spensive metals and other raw materials are here to stay as long as China and India have booming economies. 

I don't know if this is a cause or not, but do you think the subs might be more expensive because more than 3 or 4 years back, they were mostly used by muzzle loader hunters, and those people, frequently >$400 into a season, really didn't care if their powder was spendy, what with going through a pound every few years?  Just a theory.

Regardless, I still like DD's .44 "Extra Long Russian" (mag) full of FFFg.  It's stiff, and the knock downs always get knocked down.